Need Help, I think my contractor is lying to US

[dave89iroc]

I am all confused here, I must have missed something. Hopefully somebody here can straighten me out on this. The opening poster says the LED lights are on a dimmer switch. Lighting is normally on a different circuit than a wall outlet anyway, and these particular lights are on a dimmer switch. Dimmer switches are certainly not used on air-conditioners, so how can the air-conditioner possibly be on the same circuit as the lights in order to cause the problem? What am I missing???

Also, if the voltage goes up for whatever reason, since they are all on the same circuit why doesn't all 6 LED lights burn out instead of only 3? None of this makes any sense to me. Either I am laboring under a misconception or something really weird is going on.

same circuit is possible, just need to splice off the hot wire before the switch

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Sorry for the delay in response. The issue is on him but yet we have pay for it $308.

The master bedroom and the adjacent room on sharing one 40amp breaker. Once the AC is turned on it doesn't pop the breaker BUT heats up and causes the bulbs to burn out and/or the thermal one to pop with the cans.

My wife's office use to be a kitchen. There is a dead outlet that was covered up that use to power the oven. He is going to pull wore from there and connect it to all the lights in both rooms. He will install a breaker in the attic for that to protect the wiring.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

I wasn't present but this is what my wife is telling me. I honestly feel that we should not pay for anything and be responsible for any repairs if he has to open up the wall that we just sheetrocked and spackled. My wife thinks different. He should have checked the breakers when he was down there verifiiying the box is capable to handle the renovation.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Agreed. A bad neutral connection to the panel varies voltages in odd ways. Half the house gets bright while the other half goes dim. Short lived lamps. After seeing a couple it's the first thing I'd check.

The company I work for HQ is in Miami (Ryder) but they are all over. I reside in LI, NY.

 

[FullRaceMerc]

Sorry for the delay in response. The issue is on him but yet we have pay for it $308.

The master bedroom and the adjacent room on sharing one 40amp breaker. Once the AC is turned on it doesn't pop the breaker BUT heats up and causes the bulbs to burn out and/or the thermal one to pop with the cans.

My wife's office use to be a kitchen. There is a dead outlet that was covered up that use to power the oven. He is going to pull wore from there and connect it to all the lights in both rooms. He will install a breaker in the attic for that to protect the wiring.

Is this a walk in attic? He used a 40 amp breaker for lights & receptacles? Hot breakers causing lamps to burn out? Stuff doesn't add up. It sounds like you should get a second opinion from an electrician.

 

[justsam]

I certainly agree with FullRaceMerc.

Neither his diagnosis nor his solution make sense!

Is this a real electrician or a "good buddy/relative" type of individual?

 

[ichabod]

Sorry for the delay in response. The issue is on him but yet we have pay for it $308.

The master bedroom and the adjacent room on sharing one 40amp breaker. Once the AC is turned on it doesn't pop the breaker BUT heats up and causes the bulbs to burn out and/or the thermal one to pop with the cans.

My wife's office use to be a kitchen. There is a dead outlet that was covered up that use to power the oven. He is going to pull wore from there and connect it to all the lights in both rooms. He will install a breaker in the attic for that to protect the wiring.

if this is what the electrician told you, I would be looking for a different one.

 

[LXCam]

It certainly sounds like you have a voltage drop issue. But what's the root cause, undersized wire or just a bad connection? This guy obviously hasn't a clue how to properly diagnose the issue and like you said OP, he's throwing parts at it. I'd highly suggest you find a good sparky to come by and test it properly. I got this gut feeling the wire feeding that sub panel is way undersized.

 

[checkthisout]

Sorry for the delay in response. The issue is on him but yet we have pay for it $308.

The master bedroom and the adjacent room on sharing one 40amp breaker. Once the AC is turned on it doesn't pop the breaker BUT heats up and causes the bulbs to burn out and/or the thermal one to pop with the cans.

My wife's office use to be a kitchen. There is a dead outlet that was covered up that use to power the oven. He is going to pull wore from there and connect it to all the lights in both rooms. He will install a breaker in the attic for that to protect the wiring.

This doesn't make sense. You don't protect lighting circuits with 40 amp breakers. Is this a multi-wire branch circuit with one leg going to the a/c and the other to the lighting?

It sounds like the circuit breaker is simply popping due to overload and causing 3 lights to turn off. Are the 3 that are burning out on a different switch but in the same room?

 

[foreverfalcon40]

This is not a friend or relative...look at the prices I am getting quoted.

In the end he running two dedicated lines for each bedroom into the breaker in the basement. That is what I wanted. Our attic has pull out stairs. With a breaker being installed in the attic we would need have easy access to it.

I will get a second opinion after he is finished

 

[LXCam]

Ok good luck.

 

[Lassen Forge]

you also could have a bad neutral, when the a/c kicks on it could be pulling one leg down and increasing the voltage on the other leg. causing an over voltage on the lights.

This.

New LEDS don't normally "burn out" except on an overvolt situation. And the only way it would do that is if the AC leg of a circuit is unbalancing the other side of the circuit... as the volts drop on the AC side the volts spike correspondingly on the lighting side.

I bet if you had a voltmeter on the lighting circuit and watched what happens voltagewise when the AC kicks on, that meter would spike relevant to the draw on the ac as it fires up.

 

[Mustang51js]

I was thinking loose nuetral too. The led shouldnt cause a overload unless you have 100 of them on at once,they probably draw 9 watts each so that isnt the problem. The other issue is the ac,did the guy know you were putting an ac in the window. Anyone talk about running a separate line before. I believe this is a simple fix thats being made into more than it is. What else is on that circuit.

 

[Mustang51js]

Also its not a box issue or you would be tripping breakers. I would have them check the connections in the reccessed lights,you may have a loose wire from one light to the other and causing issues with the 3 lights after.

 

[James-W]

This.

New LEDS don't normally "burn out" except on an overvolt situation. And the only way it would do that is if the AC leg of a circuit is unbalancing the other side of the circuit... as the volts drop on the AC side the volts spike correspondingly on the lighting side.

I bet if you had a voltmeter on the lighting circuit and watched what happens voltagewise when the AC kicks on, that meter would spike relevant to the draw on the ac as it fires up.

I understand what you are saying and I agree in principal. But the thing is, he says there are 6 lights on the same circuit. Only 3 of them are burning out all the time. If it were a case of the voltage going up then why doesn't all 6 lights burn out?

 

[BillK]

I will get a second opinion after he is finished

I think I would get one before letting him do anything else. Is he pulling permits for the work ?

 

[gben]

The most basic/common-sense thing to do would be to test the voltage in the light sockets that are burning out bulbs while the AC is running. That should be your first step.

Even small air-conditioners like I have in a window in my house tell the consumer that they must be on a dedicated circuit.

I am an IBEW Union electrician and have been messing with electricity for half a century. It is a sad fact but contractors are the same as auto-mechanics, they are there for the money and a lot of them are pretty bad, they will screw you any way they can, and do anything they can to keep from taking the blame for anything. If you do not know how to wire a building or work on a car, then you are going to get screwed by both electricians and auto-mechanics the rest of your life. I feel sorry for most consumers that have no mechanical/electrical experience, because I know they are going to spend their lives paying big-bucks for a lot of things......

I try to get people to read books and tackle their own projects all the time, but most of them simply do not want to even give it a try. Almost anyone of normal intelligence and middle-class or lower is better off doing anything themselves than trusting someone they do not know to do it, even if they have never done it before. Sad fact.

I also have worked in a heavy metal fab shop, went to school for tool&die, lived at a motorcycle dealership and have worked as a mechanic and always have done all my vehicle repairs. I was apprenticed to an old-world watchmaker. I have seen so many of my friends and acquaintances get royally screwed it is hard to believe. Sorry.

 

[justsam]

In the end he running two dedicated lines for each bedroom into the breaker in the basement. That is what I wanted. I will get a second opinion after he is finished

A dedicated circuit to each bedroom sounds like a good start. I assume these will be 20 Amp circuits wired with 12 ga.

I would also provide a dedicated circuit for the A/C, rather than continue to fight this issue.

Even if it means doing some dry wall repair, do it right once lest this thing annoy you for years.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Forever, how can you think your contractor is lying to you when he hasn't even had a chance to come out and determine exactly what the problem is?

 

[FullRaceMerc]

I will get a second opinion after he is finished

Or you could just wait & see if something catches on fire.

Seriously, from what you have told us it sounds unwise to allow him to continue. If the guy actually ran lights & outlets on a 40 amp breaker, he is probably willing to do many other unsafe things. A 40 amp breaker is just too large to protect that type of circuit. Components will burn before the breaker throws. It doesn't sound like he understands the actual cause of the LED problem either.

Quit goofing around with this guy & get someone who knows what they are doing before it costs you more. Save your $308 for an electrician who can square it away.

 

[Imagineer first class]

Could be as simple as a 220 Load line being mistaken for a 110 neutral line....
.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP what is the voltage rating on the AC unit?

 

[ard]

I will get a second opinion after he is finished

Wait, what???

Are you nuts?

Do you get a second opinion after the first surgery? The second opinion oafter they replace the transmission on the car??

You have people here really trying to help, but why bother?

This guy is a hack by the sounds of it. (from where im sitting that is)

 

[nehog]

...
The master bedroom and the adjacent room on sharing one 40amp breaker. Once the AC is turned on it doesn't pop the breaker BUT heats up and causes the bulbs to burn out and/or the thermal one to pop with the cans...

1. No way a single 40 Amp breaker is appropriate for a 120 volt circuit. There is a whole lot of WTF here, I would want to see how it was actually wired, and with what before I decided where the problem could be.

2. What's heats up? The breaker? The 40 Amp breaker? There some serious overload here then.

3. No way, unless line voltage is dropping significantly at the lights, can an overload cause LED lights to fail.

Personally (ignore at your own risk my 40+ years as an Electrical Engineer) there are too many things that are questionable to justify using that circuit for any significant loads until the wiring if fixed.

 

[ard]

This just sounds like a 'contractor' (not an electrical contractor, IMO) talking nonsense to a wife/homeowner....and they are just too passive or confused to assert ANY level of control over the conversation. They just take what is said by this 'contactor', assume it is a fact and thats that.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP can u answer the questions we've all asked...

 

[Shiftless]

OP can u answer the questions we've all asked...

I have been following this thread and as a guy who has suffered the effects of a loose neutral, I am also waiting...

 

[buddyboy]

if one of the hots is open going to the subpanel that would cause some issues too.

i can't think that 40 amp breaker going to a lighting circuit, i bet one of the hots coming to the panel is open and the panel is getting backfed thru that 40 amp breaker.

but really who knows unless you're there to take some measurements and looksee over

 

[TheEquineFencer]

LOL....40A breaker....think wire size required down stream? What did he wire it with, something like 6 or 8 gauge.

You do not put a 40A breaker feeding 12 or 14 gauge circuits. and devices.


LOL... DP breaker feeding two separate circuits in different rooms?


I agree with several others above, you do not have a licensed electrician, if you do I'd report him and let his bonding company fix it right before he burns your house down!

 

[KenC]

Either the problem description is faulty or the 'electrician' is.
Could be either.

 

[bassman]

agree with kenc, I think the problem is not being explained correctly.

 

[bassman]

if it was a loose neutral he would loose all the LEDS, not just three.

 

[bassman]

if the AC is blowing straight up it can be cooling the LEDS to a point where they go out, I remember running into a problem like that in the past, though I think it was flour. fixtures there. As for can the box handle it, if it couldn't, the breaker feeding it would have tripped. As for the guy who says electricians and auto mech are in it for the money, why do you work? And tell people to read a book and do their own work, what is you're IOC? That's intoxicant of choice! You could also have an intermitant splice in one of the fixtures feeding the last three hi hats. Have you tried these fixtures again awhike later to see if its temp. related? Really not much the electrician could do to make what is described happen. If you indeed do have a 40A breaker feeding you're branch circuit to that room do NOT let the installer back into you're house, EVER! But I doubt that is the case

 

[bassman]

couple more thoughts. Are the fixtures rated to be in contact with insulation? if not, is the insulation 3" or more away from the fixture? And not covering it? Are the LEDS approved for use in you're housings? Are the LEDS dimmable? Are you're dimmers approved for LEDS?

 

[shillamus]

I heard recently a miss balance on the load can cause LED failure... Any truth to this???

 

[shillamus]

Also, LED's do get hot and fail.. I have not had much luck with them

They would get hot in a hi hat fixture

 

[FullRaceMerc]

Sooo... What happened?

 

[ard]

My guess?

OP had it done; paid $3xx to the contractor; 'contractor' had an unlicensed hack come in and do something to make it stop failing (likely didnt fix the underlying defects scattered around the job)...no idea what really was wrong nor is it really fixed....OP might eventually get someone to "give me a second opinion on did I get screwed", but not in any kind of in-depth, 'lets open things up to see if this is dangerous' manner.

Im a pessimist I guess...

 

[RAYJAY]

Thank you all for your reaponses.

The AC does not vibrate at all.

The LED Lights are Utilitech. We have over 80 of them in our home now on both floors. Lights from last year are still ticking good. Originally I thought we got a bad batch. New ones that swapped in burnt out as well.

are they pulling the power from the same leg as the ac unit ?

 

[nehog]

OP is gone, we're going to find out nothing.