Best way to run duplex outlets

[roadrunner255]

Hello All,

I plan on running 12 THHN in 3/4" EMT on a 15 amp circuit for my outlets in my detached garage (10 to a circuit every 8'), and am looking for the best way other than running 2 circuits 6 total wires.

A lot of talk about Multiwire branch circuits, shared neutral, and handle tie etc that maybe going out of code soon.

Maybe the electricians can comment?

Since all outlets need to be GFCI and outlets are about half of cost of single pole breakers (easier to access if tripped) what is the most common to use?

Also since my building is 40' wide by 36' deep and the 100 amp panel is 6' off the right front corner the runs are long. Any way around that?

Cheers!

 

[roadrunner255]

Most of my lighting switches, gdo, 220 20 & 50 amp outlets are going to be between the two garage doors.

Would it be better to run a piece of 1 or 1.5" conduit to the center for all the cables or run individual EMT?





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[cybrdyke]

Since all outlets need to be GFCI

Do you mean "all outlets need to be GFCI protected" ?
Only the first one on a circuit needs to be a GFCI.

CD

 

[matt_i]

One way to get flexibility is to run the large diameter trunk line, then install something along the lines of a 16" x 16" x ? (whatever depth is standard in the catalog) NEMA-1 non-hinged enclosure, just a 5-sided metal box with one panel that installs with screws, dustproof. From there you can branch off with all sorts of smaller EMT runs. Multi-wires can go inside the trunk line. As you mention, saves mounting and running a lot of individual conduit home-runs back to the panel.

Alternatively you could purchase a similar chase or duct, around 6 x 6 x 16" and do the same thing although the ends are then smaller.

 

[roadrunner255]

Do you mean "all outlets need to be GFCI protected" ?
Only the first one on a circuit needs to be a GFCI.

CD

I agree, 1 GFCI outlet is 1/2 the cost of a breaker, trip switch on the breaker is convenient.

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[roadrunner255]

One way to get flexibility is to run the large diameter trunk line, then install something along the lines of a 16" x 16" x ? (whatever depth is standard in the catalog) NEMA-1 non-hinged enclosure, just a 5-sided metal box with one panel that installs with screws, dustproof. From there you can branch off with all sorts of smaller EMT runs. Multi-wires can go inside the trunk line. As you mention, saves mounting and running a lot of individual conduit home-runs back to the panel.

Alternatively you could purchase a similar chase or duct, around 6 x 6 x 16" and do the same thing although the ends are then smaller.

Thanks, I need to run a 30 amp circuit for the lift, installer is waiting on the electric. I probably run that circuit first, up to the center peak over to the other bay.

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[sberry]

15a circuits are for lights. 20a for garage circuits.

 

[md21722]

Hello All,

I plan on running 12 THHN in 3/4" EMT on a 15 amp circuit for my outlets in my detached garage (10 to a circuit every 8'), and am looking for the best way other than running 2 circuits 6 total wires.

A lot of talk about Multiwire branch circuits, shared neutral, and handle tie etc that maybe going out of code soon.

Maybe the electricians can comment?

Since all outlets need to be GFCI and outlets are about half of cost of single pole breakers (easier to access if tripped) what is the most common to use?

Also since my building is 40' wide by 36' deep and the 100 amp panel is 6' off the right front corner the runs are long. Any way around that?

Cheers!

I would run two outlets to each location, on separate breakers. Reason being over the years I may setup a shop light for something I'm working on and if you pop a breaker with one circuit you have no light and no tool. I would run 20A breakers. #12 minimum, for the longer runs you may need to upsize to account for voltage drop. Cheaper & faster to overbuild a little now than redo it later. Just don't go crazy.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Hello All,


A lot of talk about Multiwire branch circuits, shared neutral, and handle tie etc that maybe going out of code soon.
Maybe the electricians can comment?

I've heard of none such talk. Who said this?

 

[roadrunner255]

My summation of multiwire branch circuits and the DIYer, and code changes.

For supporting EMT is it every 10' and 3' at the jboxes? Any different running PVC conduit?

Cheers!

 

[alfredeneuman]

My summation of multiwire branch circuits and the DIYer, and code changes.

For supporting EMT is it every 10' and 3' at the jboxes? Any different running PVC conduit?

Cheers!

EMT must be supported at not more than 10' intervals and not more than 3' at the terminations.

PVC varies with the size of the conduit.
3' for 1/2" to 1"
5' for 1-1/4" to 2"
6' for 2-1/2" to 3"
All sizes must be supported within 3' of terminations.

Your summation hardly qualifies as lots of talk.

 

[sberry]

I wired several of these, done it wrong as right. In my storage I shold have paneled the other side, its 80x100 and ran branches for some stuff in hindsight wouldn't have done and faced as needed.
For general circuits I like one to a wall and on the occasion I need another cord from the other wall and run one for lights in a bay, somewhere to pick up power and run switch loops. I use cord and plug in the ceiling and at least start with the intent of not having all kinds of stuff on my general recept circuit.
Voltage drop is almost irrelevant in a building this size, it seems huge now but is that circuit in the corner going to really run at 20A or is it for power tool use, battery charger. If its part of a general only the reaches are long and if I am planning a specific item will wire for it.
You can weld over there in the corner if you really got to but chances are a guy can get closer and if a machine has a home may make provisions to add a circuit dedicated for it.
Most doesn't matter with a single user in regards to tools, my bud has whole wood and machine deal pretty much runs from one circuit for tools. He got welder and air on their own but rarely uses and not at same time. He pumps and valves off for standing air once a week.

 

[roadrunner255]

EMT must be supported at not more than 10' intervals and not more than 3' at the terminations.

PVC varies with the size of the conduit.
3' for 1/2" to 1"
5' for 1-1/4" to 2"
6' for 2-1/2" to 3"
All sizes must be supported within 3' of terminations.

Your summation hardly qualifies as lots of talk.

Thanks and I understand your comment, maybe I should have used other words for that comment.

I would prefer and it would be easier and less materials to run a branch for the duplex outlets. I would run a 20 amp 2 pole breaker (12 g THHN), 2 loads red and black, w ground, can you just run 1 neutral or do you need 2 (4 conductors vs 6)?

Should one circuit trip both breakers would trip since they are one lever correct?

 

[marklc]

GFCI's will act up with a shared neutral.You should run separate circuits with separate neutrals.

 

[sberry]

I looked at the pics a second. I didn't read. A fair amount of this building can be serves with 2 or 3 3/4 and its not a deal breaker to add some stuff as it goes. Buy enough wire, boxes of simple connectors and common boxes, about 25 3/4 and a coup[le dozen 1/2 pipe, enough so you have some left so you can add without the store.
I assume there is a liner panel if so it could be ran on the first girt or under second, angles for hangers if you wanted straight piping and all at floor level.
Start with roll of black, white and a color in 14 for lights to identify loops and black and white in 12. A spool of 10 for 240 loads and some green pieces in 12 and 10. A few handi boxes, a bunch of 4x4 combo and a few 4x4 deep for 240 and raised 4x4 covers. couple boxes of cheap switches and outlets. If you find you just cant live without some premium outlet in a spot face it when it comes but get cheap **** and a couple boxes wire nuts, orange for 14 and fixtures and red and yellow. A box of couplings in each pipe size and 2 boxes each adapters and I like set screw ok.
Assortment of 1/4 20 bolts and drill screws saves a lot of hangers but box each sixe Minnie worth the investment and are boxes of clips. Some beam clamps if you can come in handy but screw to steel is cheaper especially for diy labor.
I have 20 ft plus ceilings, its a lot of work and got 75 ft of 14 runs for some lights and while they are on 15A breakers the load is 5 max and a couple 1 or 2 due to the fact they are on switches. This is the kind of building to wire as you go, collect fixtures, make changes and additions. Can work on most of it from ladder or simple scaffold, would rig myself so a guy could add a box and a switch wire or add extra 4x4 right off at columns for a couple switches even a couple colored wires up to Jbox, 2 switches leave a lot of options. Add a roll of 3/8 flex, some connectors and a box of cable connectors to have on hand. Go from there.

 

[sberry]

Add a box of handi covers, in switch, blank and recept. If a guy wants an equipment disconnect, furnace, door openers, motion lights it doesn't get easier than that and scrap of pipe with a couple connectors. Buy the benders now.
While 4 11/16 and inch may seem like a wonderful idea copied from a plant or other building its really for a contractor and industrial deal. Do all yours from the 2 smaller size and if you really got to run another pipe and keep all the parts to as few sizes which you will eventually utilize.
Same for air pip;e, in a building this size would gladly go 1/2 if I was to do steel which is less appealing all the time but simple runs, all one size fitting can change back and forth.
The amateur plumber here uses 3 different sizes and gets a bushel of fittings for each. Its so close could get ahead of a regulator with a hose, a couple pieces and maybe 1 regulator and couple manual hose reels would air the place right up.

 

[roadrunner255]

Thanks great info!

Anyone have info on installing exterior outlets (single) on a metal building?

Its a Mueller building and in the back I want to put 2 exterior outlets.

The metal sheathing is not flat, would I just recess the box with a scrap piece of metal/ 2x material (I have 4" of insulation in the inside walls).

Or use those outside aluminum boxes and just drill a 1/2" hole through the side of the building, then secure the box.

Cheers!

 

[sberry]

I agree that there is a place for multi wires but most of this is about as good and only a pinch extra wire in SOME cases to run another white especially for the owner/diy future work where it makes turning off a circuit for work simple and safe.
As for the outside. I have screwed to the girts and all that stuff but would step drill a hole in the sheet a connector would go thru and 3/8 flex to a box I lap screwed to the sheet after putting gob of silicone on the back. It doesn't need to be used as a battering ram, after it sits its on.

 

[sberry]

The dedicated circuit for the lift may be able to be 12/30 but could be ran from the spool of 10 I gave in list above. I put a box on and welder outlet on it too for wire feed.

 

[alfredeneuman]

As for the outside. I have screwed to the girts and all that stuff but would step drill a hole in the sheet a connector would go thru and 3/8 flex to a box

The minimum size flex recognized by the Code for general wiring use is 1/2".
3/8" can be used for fixture whips, wiring on machines, and the like.

 

[sberry]

One way to get flexibility is to run the large diameter trunk line, then install something along the lines of a 16" x 16" x ? (whatever depth is standard in the catalog) NEMA-1 non-hinged enclosure, just a 5-sided metal box with one panel that installs with screws, dustproof. From there you can branch off with all sorts of smaller EMT runs. Multi-wires can go inside the trunk line. As you mention, saves mounting and running a lot of individual conduit home-runs back to the panel.

This is the kind of **** to avoid when this building doesn't need anything beyond a few simple 4x4 boxes.

Alternatively you could purchase a similar chase or duct, around 6 x 6 x 16" and do the same thing although the ends are then smaller.

 

[sberry]

Whoops, I had thought about 1/2 flex and would have a piece or 2 on hand along with a handful of connectors. Start with the pipe and boxes, in todays world are so close to the stores can shop daily. Copy some other designs a bit and build with common parts. If you are looking for special stuff not on the shelf at a box store that cost more than a couple 3 bucks you are doing it wrong.
Buy 100 emt connectors. I would use deep boxes for gfci and 240. Buy a box of 100 ground screws and maybe crimp spades, another 5/16 nut runner if you do not have one, another screwdriver or 2 you can lay on this job, new set of strippers. Large step drill, time to buy good battery drill if you aint got it and a good way to cut pipe. Even a cheap chop saw works, same for band saw and even sawzall.

 

[sberry]

There is a place for larger pipe and wire and often its simply as easy to run to another panel to save on branch wire and maybe allow for welding and multiple equipment circuits. I do this, I have 5 panels but my shop is large and has several connected pieces at each point. It was way easier and cheaper than branch wiring on its own for sure but at this scale not worth adding specialty boxes, all the drill and fit etc when the mfg has went out of the way to do all but say, connect here stupid vs engineer every new part.
9 current conductors, using 10 they are over for a lift with a 43 second cycle and could probably if careful carry the load in this building in a single pipe and come pretty close to being code compliant especially if I shared the hoist and a welder circuit on a wire 2 sizes bigger than it needs.

 

[sberry]

Mine is wired that way, 8 conductors up a 3/4 4 120V circuits and 1 240 The only ones with non calculated load is 2 of the 120 generals. The hoist applys a 13A load for 43 seconds and a welder that may be used here is 23a at 30% also allowed on a 14 wire and 2 that are actually 14 wire are connected to fixed switched lights. I don't pull a green here with pipe clamped, screwed and bolted to metal building with the obvious exception of plastic pipe.

 

[sberry]

I might be tempted to go to a steel yard here and buy a few pieces of common 1/8 angle, might even consider 2 post style pcs between first and second girt to the left of the panel for raceway to hang pipe. All about chesty level. Screw hangers to it with self drillers, it to the building too. Only have to unscrew a couple liner panels to outright add a new pipe and common clips and Minnie so much cheaper than unistrut which would be hidden anyway and can sponge brush paint on for color.
Get some 1/8 inch angle, a couple 1 1/4 a couple 1 1/2 and a 2 inch piece or 2 and if you got cash a couple more of each. Its easy to buy extra pieces, tubing is tempting but the angle will get used and its cheap, 8$ for 20 ft vs 20 for 10 of strut and a lot hidden anyway and takes special clips on top of it.
Its one thing to get it from scrap for free but a simple structural angle and learn to do a hole as needed is super practical.

 

[sberry]

Its 2 wires a circuit

2 circuits 6 total wires.

4 wires for 2 circuits and possibly 2 for multi wires if it was needed or had some absolute advantage. But point being is you can run hoist and a couple 3 circuits in a 3/4 pipe as well as switch wires. As I mentioned earlier in mine the advantage of multi was adding 2 wires gave 2 more for near free in a bundle I was already pulling in pipe I had with free wire and a couple wire nuts, 2 additional breakers in a panel I have 10 extra spaces in.
Your garage could well use all 20 you have fairly easily so this is something to consider. The 100A service is not a problem. Put an 8 space on the other side of building thru 3/4 still and save branches and gain a few panel spaces as well as give local disconnect means for equipment vs some ****** AC disconnect scheme.

 

[Jo Diesel]

Are you sure your hoist needs 30A? I had 3 Bend Pak9k's and 1 4 post 12K and they were all wired 20A
Make sure you put a 110 outlet on your hoist. A 220 30A would be great for the wire feed.
We also hung an air hose right next to hoist and hung on it. No real just like a 25' whip. Most used air hose in shop
Don't forget a couple ceiling fans with switches

 

[roadrunner255]

Are you sure your hoist needs 30A? I had 3 Bend Pak9k's and 1 4 post 12K and they were all wired 20A
Make sure you put a 110 outlet on your hoist. A 220 30A would be great for the wire feed.
We also hung an air hose right next to hoist and hung on it. No real just like a 25' whip. Most used air hose in shop
Don't forget a couple ceiling fans with switches

Bendpak 10K electrical requirements says 25amp, label on motor and shut off switch much less.

30amp is much easier and less expensive to use with 10 gauge THHN.

Thanks for the info on the 110 outlet.

Oh and a website had the 2-1/8" Deep, 4-11/16" Junction Box with (6) 1/2” & (6) 1/2”-3/4” Side Knockouts and (2) 1/2" & (2) 3/4" Bottom Knockouts for 99cents each, while a large box cant pass up the price. Not sure how many to get, was thinking 25.

Would anyone recommend oversize handi covers or standard covers?

They also make gang able boxes and 3 and 4 made gang boxes any recommendations?

 

[roadrunner255]

Its 2 wires a circuit 4 wires for 2 circuits and possibly 2 for multi wires if it was needed or had some absolute advantage. But point being is you can run hoist and a couple 3 circuits in a 3/4 pipe as well as switch wires. As I mentioned earlier in mine the advantage of multi was adding 2 wires gave 2 more for near free in a bundle I was already pulling in pipe I had with free wire and a couple wire nuts, 2 additional breakers in a panel I have 10 extra spaces in.
Your garage could well use all 20 you have fairly easily so this is something to consider. The 100A service is not a problem. Put an 8 space on the other side of building thru 3/4 still and save branches and gain a few panel spaces as well as give local disconnect means for equipment vs some ****** AC disconnect scheme.

Oh for a MWBC.
2 wires? Hot and neutral, what about ground, 1 ground for both circuits but still ground to boxes.

I have 4 @500' rolls of 12 THHN, green, white, black, and red.

 

[ishiboo]

I agree, 1 GFCI outlet is 1/2 the cost of a breaker, trip switch on the breaker is convenient.

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With a MWBC, each outlet location would need its own GFCI, because of the shared neutral.

A MWBC with a dual-pole GFCI breaker would be an option because it is designed to monitor two hot legs with a single neutral.

Individual GFCI receptacles at each outlet is fine with a MWBC, even if you branched a non-shared hot/neutral from the LOAD terminals of one.

I would probably NOT use a MWBC if GFCI was required though.

 

[sberry]

You need to ground device covers but I don't use an extra wire op piped to steel buildings. Its one of the advantages of using steel and several circuits could share a ground in many cases, most on gfci too.
This pipe and boxes are all fastened to the building, it doesn't get any better and not pulling an extra wire in every pipe.

 

[alfredeneuman]

One can buy a helluva lot of #12 White wire for the price of a 2 pole GFI breaker (about $100) and if in conduit, run non-MWBC circuits.

GFI receps cost $14 each at the HD
Seems like a no-brainer

 

[sberry]

Yes, I just did one where it took about 60 ft of white and really allowed a whole different configuration. a multi would been a mess and if it not gfci it would have been different, used a multi on light circuits in the same run. I was not going to go down the breaker road, replaced one for a neighbor a while back and didn't stock one, it was costly but in its situation it covered a lot of bases and sins.

 

[sberry]

When I moved in to an older mobile it had one counter top part of a 15A general. I used a 3 conductor cable and have 1 gfci and one non on a new circuit. It was not long, maybe 60 ft but both often run and on occasion run electric heater a bit in the winter.

 

[Jo Diesel]

You can wire a 30A welder plug off the same circuit as the lift and hook it to the electrical box on the lift. Used my welder all the time to build exhausts and repair broken frames. Installed a lot of 4" systems on diesels. All hangers had to be welded.
Never ran into a problem as you are never welding when raising or lowering a vehicle.
We also welded a lot of nuts on broken bolts to remove them.

 

[sberry]

Hoist. I was going to get a 2 pole switch yet but the unit is near the panel.

 

[roadrunner255]

Thanks for all the information and photos of your lift!

I am going to use 2 1" PVC/EMT (PVC is half the price of EMT) trunks, Trunk one straight up from the panel and up the center and across over to bay 2 where the lift will be.

Second 1" trunk will go right over the 1st bay door in between the GD's and feed the lighting/switches/ outlets on that side of the building.

I have 100' of 8 gauge for a 50amp welder that I was going to put in between the doors, (trunk 2)

1" large enough? Specs say 16 @ 10g and 26 at 12g.

The Lincoln 180 MIG I have is only 20amp at 220volts, but it does have 50amp plug. I made a short pig tail out of 50amp dryer plug so I could use the 20 amp 220 outlet. I would add the 8 gauge to trunk 2 over the GD's.

Decided against MB circuit.

Cheers!

 

[sberry]

8/50 circuit is good for any machine that comes factory 50A plug. Inch is more expensive in steel, its a reason I mention staying within its class and running 3/4, run an extra pipe on the whole job. Second, find a home for the welder and get a cord unless this is a plan to use it outside and possibly wait for a second wire till you figure out where its really needed.
I understand plastic seems simple here but this is a metal building and deserves a metal pipe job. Box and fitting combinations are so good, you can skip some extra wire. Just so easy to add extra and some as cheap as a handi, a recept and a couple wires, 2 box connects and length of pipe. Plastic is great underground, under slab but tack in a building for secondary wiring.
You can see 2 cords, 1 in pic 3 and one in 4. The one in 3 rides up with the hoist for an underhood light and the one in 4 hangs just so an extra extension isn't needed for grinder or light.

 

[alfredeneuman]

(2) #8 THHN and (1) #10 Ground wire only requires a 1/2" conduit.

You can PUSH that particular combination in easily

The maximum fill for 1/2" is (3) #8s

 

[sberry]

A 3/4 would allow for a couple more wires easily. Skip inch stuff altogether.