we all knew it eventually had to happen to Craftsman...

[zendriver]

anyone who doesn't think Craftsman can make it back to the US isn't thinking hard enough... it's definitely possible, but not the way you think. it's not just going to take being patriotic to do it. you have to do manufacturing a totally different way, not with a factory of workers but a factory of robots. it's going to be a lot cheaper to hire a few guys who can keep the robots running smoothly than to hire guys standing in front of grinders. you'll need some programmers to program the robots, but you only do that a few times until the software is stable. you'll probably have to buy the robots from Germany or Japan to start, hence anyone planning to do this needs to take a long term view on their money... up front investment is high, but once you get the system working and running smoothly, you can have a very efficient factory that will probably beat the Chinese cheap labor.

but that aside, you don't need to beat the Chinese cheap labor. everyone already thinks "China" means crappy stuff... so, you play on that.. you make a cheaper line of tools to be on par with the China stuff, but you mainly focus your development of new tools and marketing on being "better than Chinese" and ask for a 10-20% premium... it will sell, I promise you that, but not in huge volume. that's ok, that's part of the plan... it'll be a profitable sale at least. But more importantly, you start making the brand mean something really positive.. people know they can pay 10%-20% more and get a much better tool and not break the bank for snap-on. Once you have the brand recognition again, remember that "on par with China" tool ?... it's gonna look a lot better because people will associate positive things with the brand... so, even if the quality is the same as China, and the price is the same, they will buy "Craftsman Home tools" brand because the "Craftsman Pro" brand is awesome.

that's how you get it done folks...

Anyone remember Motorola, RCA or for the most part, Chrysler?

They were "go to" brand-names
Many loved - until they found one's they like better, which is the case with everything sold.

The only ones that believe "Chinese equals crappy" are those not facing reality.

Why would anyone really care about "made in USA - by robots"?



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[Mechanical Noise]

I think it's a catch-22. Craftsman brand without lifetime warranty is worthless. However trying to increase quality will make lifetime warranty very expensive for brand owner. Maybe it's time to just let Craftsman die a quiet death?

They could still sell power tools or other non-lifetime warranty items. They could sell Craftsman coolers and hats and picnic tables, if they want.

If the price gets cheap enough, somebody will buy it. As another poster pointed out, Thorson named tools are still around.

It's an oversimplification, but people who want to buy American can buy SK or Proto or Wright or whatever. Easy on the internet, too. People who want low cost and a decent bang for the buck are at Harbor Freight or Northern Tool. People who remember the glory days of Craftsman already have 80% of the hand tools they will ever own.

 

[Davefr]

My gut feeling says's it'll be Newall/Rubbermaid. (CM side by side with Irwin)

 

[zendriver]

Maybe it's worth it, if they get Craftsman at a give away price.

That's a recipe for success, at what is mostly a mom-and-pop hardware store?


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[n8n]

Anyone remember Motorola, RCA or for the most part, Chrysler?

They were "go to" brand-names
Many loved - until they found one's they like better, which is the case with everything sold.

The only ones that believe "Chinese equals crappy" are those not facing reality.

Why would anyone really care about "made in USA - by robots"?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If I'm going to pay a premium for a product, I'd rather that premium going to pay my neighbor a living wage rather than for Diesel fuel made from Middle Eastern crude oil to ship the product from halfway around the world.

But that's just me...

and for the record, I still think Motorola makes some of the best cell phones. Too bad they and Sprint seem to have had a falling out.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Why would anyone really care about "made in USA - by robots"?

Eddie Lampert! Just as soon as he gets tired of retailing.

 

[Gautama]

I think people are overthinking this. From a marketing standpoint, Craftsman needs to occupy a specific niche in the consumer's mind. Ask your wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or anyone who doesn't know about tools to name low-end and high-end tool brands. My guess is they don't know the name of a low-end brand, because it's solely dictated by whatever has the lowest price at their local store. Probably Husky or Kobalt. Ask them high-end, and they might say Craftsman or maybe Snap-On. So the Craftsman name still has value, but the problem is that consumers these days tend to be primarily price driven, not quality driven. They might think of Craftsman as a premium brand, but they're spending their money on Husky because it's cheap and has a lifetime warranty.

Craftsman would need to target the consumer willing to spend more on a higher-end tool, but the problem is that those people are the ones who think of Craftsman as a lower-quality brand! So Craftsman is in a very tough position, and it's very expensive to change a consumer's mind--it generally requires lots of advertising campaigns in a very saturated space. It's always a better idea to reinforce the space you own, but the target market here is just too small (consumers who are willing to spend more for a better brand but aren't educated about tools).

Unless a company with very deep pockets is willing to try and carve out a new niche for Craftsman, the brand has weakened its position enough that it simply can't compete.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

That's a recipe for success, at what is mostly a mom-and-pop hardware store?


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Not sure I understand. If you're talking about Ace buying Craftsman and it's warranty burden, I'd expect returns to still be rebated to the store.

And the new owner of Craftsman would have the option of getting out of the hand tool business.

 

[Gautama]

I also want to add that people are saying Craftsman could compete if they came back to making tools in the USA, but would they really be able to compete with brands that already occupy that space, namely Channellock and Klein? Klein is ******* away their market share very quickly by offshoring tool production but continuing to charge a premium price. They are selling solely based on reputation ("Everyone in the electrical trade uses Klein") but that reputation is eroding quickly. Channellock is Made in USA, offers a huge selection, and occupies the mid-tier price point, and they're sold at Home Depot. How is Craftsman going to compete with that? Made in USA is owned by Channellock, and taking that space is going to be difficult at best.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

The guy who bought Sears is an utter fool and jackass. I forget his name. Some big shot CEO. Bad management is ruining corporate America IMO. Fools and asses.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

I

and for the record, I still think Motorola makes some of the best cell phones. Too bad they and Sprint seem to have had a falling out.

Too bad Motorola took millions of dollars in incentives from the State of Illinois to build a big cellphone factory, ran it for a few years and then ran out.

Damn thing sat around for years. Some investors recently bought it. Chinese investors, I believe.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Investigative Report Reveals 'Toxic And Defeated' Mood At Eddie Lampert's Sears

http://www.businessinsider.com/repo...ger-mood-at-company-toxic-and-defeated-2012-4

From 2012. Guy is a micromanaging assclown who's ruining what was a good company.

 

[sberry]

It goes back a long time. They were a catalog biz, when Kmart came along they tried to compete on the cheap end, when Walmart came they doubled down and tried to price against them instead of climbing upscale a notch. They tried to compete against HF and they should have been shooting for a spot just below SK,, or keeping this spot instead of racing to the bottom.
Cman isn't any better or worse, its the same as the now big box stores that dwarf them in size and scale. USA, not USA all the same stuff spun out of the same plants, some of it looks like it came from the same die. Sears isn't robbing anyone at gunpoint on a 10 pc wrench set but you can find the same cheaper and easier today.
There is no real incentive to shop Sears anymore, they used to be the price leaders and economical, could be the only real or best choice back in the 70's. Could buy off the shelf at 10% the trucks and own something outright,,, really true before the advent of widespread consumer type credit.
Even big sets may have been only a couple paychecks and they were yours.
If I was really going after it would be way earlier and take more than any USA stamp on it for it to have some value. 2 wrenches, different era, the club was in about 81 or so.

 

[zendriver]

Not sure I understand. If you're talking about Ace buying Craftsman and it's warranty burden, I'd expect returns to still be rebated to the store.



And the new owner of Craftsman would have the option of getting out of the hand tool business.

Rebated by who? If ace owns the brand-name seems they would have to eat the return just like Sears


If not for the handtools I don't know why anyone would care otherwise. Their power tools of the same price and quality is everything everybody else.

Is having a plastic shop vac with the "craftsman" name on it of real value to anyone?


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[bonneyman]

I can't see Ace Hardware eating 100 years of warranty returns


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Maybe not. But, as an Ace employee, I'd get first dibs on all those vintage tool returns!

 

[sberry]

Why would a guy want the broken tools?

 

[zendriver]

Why would a guy want the broken tools?

Take them to another ace hardware and get new ones!


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[James-W]

When I was growing up, practically everyone I knew had Craftsman tools. Today, hardly any of the kids growing up have Craftsman tools. In fact, if you go to a Sears store you hardly see anyone looking at the tools these days. I realize Craftsman tools can be bought at several different stores now, but still, I think the trend is to shy away from the Craftsman name. I quit buying buying tools from Sears several years ago.

 

[4x4gearhead]

Bleh. Not surprised.

 

[OutsideMachinist]

Craftsman doesn't make anything. They relabel and sell lower grade consumer/diy tools with a few gems here and there. Harbor freight, lowes, husky etc already does that. No room for craftsman or a revitalization of craftsman.

 

[zendriver]

When I was growing up, practically everyone I knew had Craftsman tools. Today, hardly any of the kids growing up have Craftsman tools. In fact, if you go to a Sears store you hardly see anyone looking at the tools these days. I realize Craftsman tools can be bought at several different stores now, but still, I think the trend is to shy away from the Craftsman name. I quit buying buying tools from Sears several years ago.

What do they use instead? Just curious since my sons could care less what kind of wrench they use, as long as it gets the job done.


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[zendriver]

If I'm going to pay a premium for a product, I'd rather that premium going to pay my neighbor a living wage rather than for Diesel fuel made from Middle Eastern crude oil to ship the product from halfway around the world.



But that's just me...



and for the record, I still think Motorola makes some of the best cell phones. Too bad they and Sprint seem to have had a falling out.

They made great cell phones, but everyone decided they like Apple and Samsung smart phones a lot better



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[Brownsfan]

What do they use instead? Just curious since my sons could care less what kind of wrench they use, as long as it gets the job done.


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Harbor Freight and Stanley from Wal-Mart etc. They have the preception as "CHEAP" . Case in point. My neighbor who just moved in not too long ago is younger than me. Im in my late 30s. He is in his late 20s. He was putting some stuff together and needed a few tools that he just didnt have yet. I helped him out and he asked where he should buy a basic tool set for the house. I told him any of the home improvement stores or the Sears hardware that's 2 miles away. He said Craftsman is too expensive. So as someone said above is Sears is in a tough spot with the Craftsman name. Guys my age and older saw it as affordable but QUALITY. Younger see as too expensive for what they need.
I remember when Lowes and Home Depot came to town and really started to push the house brands. This was late 90s. They didnt boast being cheaper the said they were better. Kobalt was made by Williams a Snap On company and was priced higher and it really was better. Husky had the whole trade in your broken competitor tool for a new Husky because Husky is better.
Then something changed in the early 00s. Price was now the motivating factor and thats when HF came to town.

 

[redmondjp]

Harbor Freight and Stanley from Wal-Mart etc. They have the preception as "CHEAP" . Case in point. My neighbor who just moved in not too long ago is younger than me. Im in my late 30s. He is in his late 20s. He was putting some stuff together and needed a few tools that he just didnt have yet. I helped him out and he asked where he should buy a basic tool set for the house. I told him any of the home improvement stores or the Sears hardware that's 2 miles away. He said Craftsman is too expensive. So as someone said above is Sears is in a tough spot with the Craftsman name. Guys my age and older saw it as affordable but QUALITY. Younger see as too expensive for what they need.
I remember when Lowes and Home Depot came to town and really started to push the house brands. This was late 90s. They didnt boast being cheaper the said they were better. Kobalt was made by Williams a Snap On company and was priced higher and it really was better. Husky had the whole trade in your broken competitor tool for a new Husky because Husky is better.
Then something changed in the early 00s. Price was now the motivating factor and thats when HF came to town.

I have mostly Craftsman tools that I started buying as a teenager back in the 1980s. But their quality these days is not at all what it used to be.

Several years back, I was at Home Despot and bought a set of full-polish Husky metric combination wrenches on clearance for $9.99. They have held up amazingly well, and the finish on them is far nicer than any of the flat-panel Craftsman wrenches I had prior to that. I have a full set of Craftsman metric combination wrenches that I bought during a Black Friday sale, but my go-to set is still the Husky one.

We live in a golden age of cheap but still decent tools. I remember the Taiwanese socket sets from the 1970s and 1980s - THOSE were utter garbage, when compared to the cheapest tools you can buy today.

 

[Askme42]

I hope to see Craftsman back as a USA product but I highly doubt it. I was in Ace the other day and mentioned to a guy next to me that it is too bad that craftsman is mostly china now. His response was basically, " doesn't matter where it is made, if it breaks, just come back and get a new one". We are in a minority in this country of people who want to see USA on their tools or other products. Its a shame.

Yep people will ***** to no end about companies moving jobs overseas but guess what they won't ever make their voice heard with their wallet.

 

[sberry]

Yes, at first HF bought exclusively on cheap and as China got new plants began to shop hard among them like Walmart does. At factory cost there is probably a dollar difference between the cheapest and something that passes ansi, not much incentive for anyone to buy the absolute junk but to look for the best quality amongst the cheap and HF has proven this with their ratchet and really their better wrenches. You hardly see stamped in India at a flea anymore.
Walmart doesn't want to be a return center for hand tools, they spec with Stanley and buy a lot of pieces that are branded with different packaging, some a different grip with a brand name.
I see some flea adjustables precision finished with everything but a brand stamp, would fool any one with a different stamp on it.

 

[byoungblood]

just waiting for sears to fold and the massive clearance at this point... i'll buy all the batteries for my C3 ****

Don't hold your breath. Most of the time it gets marked up to full list or higher, then the liquidation "discount" is applied. The gullible buy up all of the decent stuff thinking they're getting a good deal. By the time the 60-70% discount kicks in (ie., when you're actually getting a deal) there's only junk left.

I honestly can't see anyone buying the brand unless someone like Northern Tool or Tractor Supply wants to put a more recognizable name to its house brand tools. I'm not sure if the brand would work if it was only available online or only available through limited distribution channels. Perhaps its biggest selling point was that you could drop into a Sears (that were just about anywhere at one point) and buy any tool you wanted.

 

[sberry]

We live in a golden age of cheap but still decent tools. I remember the Taiwanese socket sets from the 1970s and 1980s - THOSE were utter garbage, when compared to the cheapest tools you can buy today.

I totally agree with this. Auto parts stores sold tools of various types, Easco types and some were SK dealers. It was about Sears level or so.
Now its all about the same from the flea market and its prices if one wants to look to Home Depot with a few pieces spec here and there or with special features. Some of the house brands are so close a clone of the hi leverage trade equivalent USA made you couldn't tell them apart.
Same for screwdrivers, gladly take some new flea mkt sets vs my old worn out stuff. Now HF has near perfected that game, just buy a new one.
I bought 1 set of ratchet wrenches on super sale at Sears in the last 20 years at least. Replaced a dozen items on warranty and maybe bought a couple screwdrivers on dollar sale and maybe one I spent 3 on when I needed it.
I bought the wrenches feeling sorry for them almost giving them away, they couldn't have made a nickel on me. I went from buying a lot at Sears to none. Partially simply due to the fact I got it all. If I need it have it in duplicate and some cases extra.
Hardware stores used to carry more 2nd tier tools but many of those were not cheap then. Seems I saw a set of beautiful full chrome wrenches in a grocery store for 25$ and even less on sale at HF.
Meijers is selling tekton, a couple bucks more than a flea maybe but the stuff is good and a guy aint gonna wear it out or break it. store never has to warranty it.

 

[Sco Deac]

What we are talking about is that Craftsman was staked out/owned the market sector that economist now call the "hollow middle" or "disappearing middle." For most all markets, there has been a move of consumer buying preferences to the two poles of the "value" end and the "premium" end. The economic downturn of the late 2000s probably sped this trend faster. People tend to go to either of the poles and are abandoning the compromises offered in the middle product offerings. The poles grow stronger while the middle is getting beat up from both ends. For decades, Craftsman owned that middle spot, and still does in too many consumers minds. On the low end, Harbor Freight, Mendards, Wal-Mart, ect. are chipping away at market share and at the high end, Snap-On ect. is doing the same.

It seems like somewhere along the way the Sears/Craftsman folks recognized this and chose the move towards the "value" end. Maybe it was their only choice, but we can all see how well that's been working for them so far.

 

[woody 73]

If you were interested on another take on things (be sure and see when it was written):

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/12/07/is-it-time-for-sears-to-sell-craftsman.aspx

You boys did know it was coming so no surprise there.

 

[sberry]

Its no mystery Sears try to sell too cheap to make any money in an environment where I went in to a mom and pop grocery store and see a journeyman screwdriver number 2 with hardened tip on a rack for under 3$,,, same thing at Menards is a dollar or 2 more. I am going to buy a couple next time thru.

 

[FergusonTO35]

I remember when Lowes and Home Depot came to town and really started to push the house brands. This was late 90s. They didnt boast being cheaper the said they were better. Kobalt was made by Williams a Snap On company and was priced higher and it really was better. Husky had the whole trade in your broken competitor tool for a new Husky because Husky is better.
Then something changed in the early 00s. Price was now the motivating factor and thats when HF came to town.

I loved the original Williams made Kobalt, outstanding tools. Glad I didn't get in too deep with them before they cheaped out. Since that time I have sold my Kobalt USA stuff for a handsome price, replaced it with Snappy/Matco/Cornwell, and refuse to have anything more to do with them. I wish Craftsman all the success in the world but I fear that decades of self-defeating behavior by Sears has rendered the brand a wandering zombie that hasn't realized it is dead yet.

 

[byoungblood]

What we are talking about is that Craftsman was staked out/owned the market sector that economist now call the "hollow middle" or "disappearing middle." For most all markets, there has been a move of consumer buying preferences to the two poles of the "value" end and the "premium" end. The economic downturn of the late 2000s probably sped this trend faster. People tend to go to either of the poles and are abandoning the compromises offered in the middle product offerings. The poles grow stronger while the middle is getting beat up from both ends. For decades, Craftsman owned that middle spot, and still does in too many consumers minds. On the low end, Harbor Freight, Mendards, Wal-Mart, ect. are chipping away at market share and at the high end, Snap-On ect. is doing the same.

It seems like somewhere along the way the Sears/Craftsman folks recognized this and chose the move towards the "value" end. Maybe it was their only choice, but we can all see how well that's been working for them so far.

This trend really ***** for most consumers too. You used to be able to buy things that lacked a bunch of bells and whistles, but were durable. Now if you don't want the bells and whistles, you're stuck with the "value" product which more often than not isn't very durable. Appliances have taken a big hit in this area too, where you either spend an arm and a leg to get something that will last, and is loaded up with all kinds of "features" most never use (which actually makes then more unreliable) or more basic models that hardly do the job.

 

[n8n]

This trend really ***** for most consumers too. You used to be able to buy things that lacked a bunch of bells and whistles, but were durable. Now if you don't want the bells and whistles, you're stuck with the "value" product which more often than not isn't very durable. Appliances have taken a big hit in this area too, where you either spend an arm and a leg to get something that will last, and is loaded up with all kinds of "features" most never use (which actually makes then more unreliable) or more basic models that hardly do the job.

Quite true!

Seems like buying something like a dishwasher, stove, fridge, etc. is way harder than it ought to be. There's no middle ground between "**** that barely works, imported from Elbonia" and "HOW much is that again?"

 

[M6erfan]

"you have to do manufacturing a totally different way, not with a factory of workers but a factory of robots. it's going to be a lot cheaper to hire a few guys who can keep the robots running smoothly than to hire guys standing in front of grinders."

THIS.

Like it or not, automation is coming in a big way. Think about it, it makes sense on so many levels; Environmental, return on investment, QC, insurance, medical, etc. etc... The single biggest pain in the *** & expense for businesses is the employees, so they're going away. Not saying I like it, but it's a fact

 

[Sco Deac]

This trend really ***** for most consumers too. You used to be able to buy things that lacked a bunch of bells and whistles, but were durable. Now if you don't want the bells and whistles, you're stuck with the "value" product which more often than not isn't very durable. Appliances have taken a big hit in this area too, where you either spend an arm and a leg to get something that will last, and is loaded up with all kinds of "features" most never use (which actually makes then more unreliable) or more basic models that hardly do the job.

I agree with you. I just bought a new dishwasher about a year ago, and it was not a fun experience. I didn't want cheap junk, I just wanted "good enough" but no one offered "good enough." I went with a Bosch, which is probably on the higher end, but it kept the wife happy.

The business school types argue that while mainstream/middle products may perform better than value products, the difference in performance created by a particular benefit (durability, convenience, ascetics, whatever) is not creating sufficient differentiated value to support the cost differential. It does, however, add material amounts of cost. What results is a preference, among many consumers, the value offering – not necessarily because it is better and not only because it is less expensive, but because its price is more in line with its benefits than is the case with the mainstream product.

The consumers reason, the $3 Harbor Freight screw driver is worth $3. The $30 Mac is worth $30. The $12 Craftsman USA is only worth $9 (but it can't be made for that) so why should I the consumer "overpay." I'd be better off with the Mac or Harbor Freight. I am "wasting" money on the "overpriced" middle offering.

An interesting question is what other brands in the tool world occupy the middle ground?

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

If you were interested on another take on things (be sure and see when it was written):

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/12/07/is-it-time-for-sears-to-sell-craftsman.aspx

You boys did know it was coming so no surprise there.

Were Sears to sell the rest of its businesses off, then rebrand itself as the "Craftsman" store, focus on selling American-made goods to distinguish itself from the Home Depots and Lowe's of the world, I think Craftsman might still have a chance of making a comeback.

I would love love love for this to happen, but the hack CEO is too stupid to do it.

 

[787B]

What if... Harbor Freight buys Craftsman?

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Rebated by who? If ace owns the brand-name seems they would have to eat the return just like Sears

Of course, My thought train got derailed by the "Mom & Pop" point. Corporate Ace isn't a Mom & Pop operation but alot, maybe most, of the retailers are. The people running Ace should be able to make a pretty good guesstimate as to the costs of servicing the warranty. Ace is just one of the potential buyers who could have bought Craftsman. So far, nobody has.

If not for the handtools I don't know why anyone would care otherwise. Their power tools of the same price and quality is everything everybody else.

Is having a plastic shop vac with the "craftsman" name on it of real value to anyone?


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Ilm not sure the Craftsman name on hand tools is especially valuable any more. Who's going be to be the future buyers of Craftsman hand tools? Guys between 50 and 70 who already have a garage full of tools? Or guys between their teens and 30 who might need something every month? I think the percentage of do-it-yourselfers among younger people is smaller and those younger people have come of age when there are alot more go to places for decent tools at a decent price.

I think the Craftsman brand is worth more than nothing. I think it's way to easy for nostalgic people to think it's worth alot, though. Sears has been shopping their brands for months now. There are lots of potential buyers and none of them have stepped up.

 

[WWShop]

What if... Harbor Freight buys Craftsman?

Then you can use the 20% coupon on craftsman tools.