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Putting your hand in a "safety" table saw

Gautama

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Very interesting video: http://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/putting-hand-saw-blade-bosch-reaxx-test/25927/

On the one hand, this doesn't seem like a particularly real-world test. On the other hand, how much more damage would have been done if they hadn't taken the precautions they did?

I'm sure this technology will reduce the seriousness of many injuries, but I have to wonder whether people may be less careful because they think the saw will keep them from getting hurt, and that the net result may be an increase in the number of injuries? I guess time will tell.

As an aside, YouTube wouldn't load any videos until I turned on my VPN. Looks like my ISP is up to some shenanigans. :(
 
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jimgood

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Well, that didn't look to me like it really worked. His real test, where he let just the tip of the blade poke through the top of the wood, sounded to me like the motor shut down but was continuing to spin on it's inertia. WTF good does that do if you really put your hand in the saw. I would imagine that if he had put his hand in like he was pretending he was about to do in the beginning, he'd have lost a finger or needed stitches at least.
 
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Gautama

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I think the blade continues to spin but drops down inside of the table so it can't make contact with anything.
 

gungatim

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Still not sure how I feel about those. I figured it was another pro sawstop thread by one of his cronies but I see Bosch has done one better using air bag tech. so I assume that is what is coming next. air bags on all our machines LOL...
 

Jeepster425

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The blade doesn't spin, a piece of aluminum catches the blade and it instantly drops.

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Slycox

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The problem I have with this one and I'm not sure about the other ones is there is no way to test it. You could use it for years and have that false sense of security and next thing you know you're missing body parts.
 

gungatim

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I think the sawstop has a self test, but Bosch, relying on an explosive charge to drop the blade instead of stopping it with a chunk of metal is a different story. like airbags, the explosives used degrade over time. they can become unstable. they can get wet and fail...so yeah, I'm pretty much in the "I take responsibility for my safety" camp, not the "electronic features will save me from careless mistakes" camp...
 

Brian_WK

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I don't care if it bakes me a cake if I touch the blade im never going near it period!!!

I am glad that this is coming to more saws. Hopefully Bosch and others will have a redundant system in place at some point stop the blade and drop it away?

After you trip the saw what all needs to be replaced on one of these and what is the price on those components? If the Bosch air bag is a cartridge that can be replaced for $50 I would thing doing it on a annual or bi-annual occurrence would be smart.

And as always just alike driving a car, prevention and awareness will be your 1st line of defense. I see this as added protection (like car airbags) for that 1/2000 chance freak accident.

Brian
 

Corndoggeh

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I prefer the sawstop system myself and agree about the negatives to the airbag tech that is used. However, common sense beats all but if your a professional carpenter or a shop teacher (Like any public school has shop anymore lol) the stopping technology is more useful for that one in a billionth chance.
 

fatfillup

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You will see more and more of these safer saws in businesses as insurance companies demand them or charge more if you don't have them. Mainly in businesses that have high usage.
 

shawhite

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From what I have read the advantages of the Bosch system is you don't ruin your expensive blade like the saw stopz. Also you can be back up in running in a couple minutes by changing the charge pack. The saw has a panel on the front with different lights to let you know the operation of the safety system (ex green everything is good, red meaning you have a problem). If I remember correctly the charges are sold in packs of 2 for roughly $100. And after so many trips (14 I think) the saw will need to be taken in for inspection.
 
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PugetDude

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Sawstop is owned by a sleazeball attorney who lobbied to make his system mandatory, so he could strong-arm the rest of the industry into paying him royalties to keep him from suing them whenever there was a table saw accident...

I'll never buy a SawStop product.
 

Clint_D

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I think the blade continues to spin but drops down inside of the table so it can't make contact with anything.

Yes, I was going to chime in, but you nailed it. This is one of the main differences between the ReaXX and the SawStop technology.

Simply based on the markings left by the saw (we did another test that will hit YouTube later this week), it appears you get hit with roughly 4 teeth on the Bosch. The SawStop actually pulls backwards the tiniest bit when it activates due to the brake engaging the blade and stopping its motion.
 

Clint_D

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Still not sure how I feel about those. I figured it was another pro sawstop thread by one of his cronies but I see Bosch has done one better using air bag tech. so I assume that is what is coming next. air bags on all our machines LOL...

Sorry, I just had this image of a giant inflatable flying out from the table and blowing me backwards...lol.
 

kctyphoon

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If I remember correctly, these new saws are the result of lawyers targeting table saw injuries on the grounds that "the technology exists" to make them safer.. I've seen a test somewhere, where a guy lets his finger touch the blade. Pretty sure it was the sawstop model..

Other than finding a home in high schools ( if any even still have wood shop), I don't see many guys buying this, unless you're a contractor and want to avoid injuries/comp cases from the crew.. I like my delta. A healthy fear of spinning blades is a good thing. I can definitely see damp wood triggering these..
 

tymbo

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Sawstop is owned by a sleazeball attorney who lobbied to make his system mandatory, so he could strong-arm the rest of the industry into paying him royalties to keep him from suing them whenever there was a table saw accident...

I'll never buy a SawStop product.

The phrase comes to mind 'cut off your nose(finger) to spite your face':headscrat
 

thebeekeeper1

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The only real test would be with the 2X4 NOT there. In the real world accidents don't happen as depicted in videos of this type. The SawStop guy with his wiener being slowly pushed into the blade, then showing a tiny nick in the wiener means nothing, as accidents happen VERY quickly, when the piece being cut is grabbed by the blade and moved VERY rapidly--with the hand going along for the ride.

I'd like to see this same test done without the 2X4--but I won't be the one doing it.
 

shawhite

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If I remember correctly, these new saws are the result of lawyers targeting table saw injuries on the grounds that "the technology exists" to make them safer.. I've seen a test somewhere, where a guy lets his finger touch the blade. Pretty sure it was the sawstop model..

Other than finding a home in high schools ( if any even still have wood shop), I don't see many guys buying this, unless you're a contractor and want to avoid injuries/comp cases from the crew.. I like my delta. A healthy fear of spinning blades is a good thing. I can definitely see damp wood triggering these..

The Bosch has a way you can test the wood prior to cutting to see if it will trigger and bypass the safety system to make the cut. This seems a little silly to me because the safety system should not have to be turned off to make a cut.

The problem I have read with saw stop is you loose the blade and have to buy a new blade stop. So if you don't have a spare on hand you are down til you get one. I doubt you will find one at the local hardware store. The price of both of these saws is what keep me from buying them. $1500 is a little much for any weekend warrior
 
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95riosnake

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We have a sawstop at work and what I think a lot of people don't realize is cutting ANYTHING that will carry an electric charge will set it off.

A new guy went to cut a piece of treated lumber for something they were building outside... the moisture in the wood set that thing off and BAM, about $150 for a replacement stop block and new blade... Granted it's nice to not lose a finger but for my personal use at home which sometimes includes treated lumber, a SawStop is a no-go. I'd much rather use a conventional saw and have a "junk" blade that I swap on for treated lumber use.
 

jlipsky14

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We have a sawstop at work and what I think a lot of people don't realize is cutting ANYTHING that will carry an electric charge will set it off.

A new guy went to cut a piece of treated lumber for something they were building outside... the moisture in the wood set that thing off and BAM, about $150 for a replacement stop block and new blade... Granted it's nice to not lose a finger but for my personal use at home which sometimes includes treated lumber, a SawStop is a no-go. I'd much rather use a conventional saw and have a "junk" blade that I swap on for treated lumber use.

You can turn off the stop feature "bypass mode" if you are cutting treated or wet wood. Just have to have people who know how to use the saw and know when they are cutting something wet or treated.
 

rsanter

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The problem I have with this one and I'm not sure about the other ones is there is no way to test it. You could use it for years and have that false sense of security and next thing you know you're missing body parts.

oh there's a way to test it alright.
a friend of mine works at a high school that has one of the saw stop machines. the problem they have is the punk *** morons who hear about it and want to try it out.
they will get their finger on the blade just a little bit to where it nicks their finger but it stops the blade, destroys the blade and the aluminum thing that grabs the blade.
these dumb asses think its funny. he can yell at them, send them to the office...whatever and they are right back in the class.
that is one of those classes that is a dumping ground for the students they don't want anywhere else

bob
 

PugetDude

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oh there's a way to test it alright.
a friend of mine works at a high school that has one of the saw stop machines. the problem they have is the punk *** morons who hear about it and want to try it out.
they will get their finger on the blade just a little bit to where it nicks their finger but it stops the blade, destroys the blade and the aluminum thing that grabs the blade.
these dumb asses think its funny. he can yell at them, send them to the office...whatever and they are right back in the class.
that is one of those classes that is a dumping ground for the students they don't want anywhere else

bob

Future Darwin Award winners.
 

ovrrdrive

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I ain't gonna lie... I had major anxiety in the beginning of that video thinking he was going to actually put his hand in it. I don't think I'd do it.
 

Al Borland

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Okay, I like the idea of a safer saw, but what kind of IDIOT decides to press his luck and stick his hand in it? I mean seriously. And to the scum lawyer who is trolling injuries with this idea...:thefinger
 

Clint_D

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The Bosch has a way you can test the wood prior to cutting to see if it will trigger and bypass the safety system to make the cut. This seems a little silly to me because the safety system should not have to be turned off to make a cut.

Actually, SawStop has the patent on that, too. The Bosch has a bypass mode, but doesn't have a way to tell you whether or not it would have gone off. The way the SawStop works is that you put the saw in Bypass mode, make the cut—and then you can check to see if it would have triggered the mechanism. I suppose the assumption is that you'd be making additional cuts in the same material.
 

gungatim

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We have a sawstop at work and what I think a lot of people don't realize is cutting ANYTHING that will carry an electric charge will set it off.

A new guy went to cut a piece of treated lumber for something they were building outside... the moisture in the wood set that thing off and BAM, about $150 for a replacement stop block and new blade... Granted it's nice to not lose a finger but for my personal use at home which sometimes includes treated lumber, a SawStop is a no-go. I'd much rather use a conventional saw and have a "junk" blade that I swap on for treated lumber use.

wait, so you can't cut aluminum with it? I use my table saw and chop saw to cut aluminum all the time for antenna tower projects and other things.
 

catalytic

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I ACTUALLY saw a sawstop save a girl's thumb. In my old school shop, they had recently upgraded to 2 Sawstop cabinet models, and a girl who had been working on stuff for a few months tried to cut off her thumb at the joint while ripping something. She walked away with only a nick. It made a pretty good "WHAM" noise when the alu brake hit the blade to save her.

I have a LOT of vintage woodworking and metalworking machines, and I'm as compulsive about which brands/models I get as some of you guys are with matching your snap-on handles to your socks or whatever it is you do... We now have a sawstop table saw as our only saw. It's the only non-USA machine we own, and the only thing around that isn't heavy USA iron. We love it. It also has quite good fit, finish, and accuracy.

Say what you want about how careful you can be... Since I saw that thumb save I'm a 100% believer. A guy I used to work with used to try to say having it would make me careless. Having been around machines all my life, nothing about being near a tablesaw makes me careless, sawstop or no!

I'm not a fan of the company trying to force others to adopt it, but I am a huge fan of their product.

Also, please stand to the side of the blade. Sawstop will save your thumb, but it won't save your organs from a kickback. Guy at the local lumber yard has had 10 operations trying to get all of the splinters out of his organs after a kickback went full passthru (Robin Hood style) in his abdomen but left some bits behind.

EDIT ^^ Yes you can still cut alu with the sawstop...there is a setting that turns the sawstop feature OFF. We don't use it since we don't want to leave some swarf behind that sets it off next time its on, but supposedly that's not a huge problem.
 

Professur

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While discussing the cost ... ask yourself how much the 'safety features' in your car added to the cost. The difference being that for the most part those were added over a period of time, with no parallel models without those additions being available to price match against. But if you look back before airbags became mandatory, they were an expensive option that few people would pay for. In the 60's, seat belts were a costly option too.
 

95riosnake

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You can turn off the stop feature "bypass mode" if you are cutting treated or wet wood. Just have to have people who know how to use the saw and know when they are cutting something wet or treated.

Ah I see, I didn't know that. I have never come across a need to cut treated wood at work, as we do prototyping and there is almost never a need for treated wood. This guy was from the maintenance dept. and was building something for an outdoor seating area. They have done several training sessions with everyone on all our wood and metal machinery (none of it was news to me but it was good for some of the others on the staff), but they never mentioned the bypass mode on the sawstop. Hell, I doubt they even know. I'll mention it to the shop manager and it might save the company some headache in the future.

Good to know for the future though, that means a sawstop would be an option for my home shop. It really is a nice saw. I always enjoy using the one we have at work. I just have a Delta 34-600 9" at home for now until I eventually free up the cash to get a proper cabinet saw.
 

95riosnake

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They're 60 bucks...

I've got 2 in my shop had one for 4 years, one for 2. They've each saved me a claim... I figure they've paid for themselves in that time.

I said for a replacement stop AND BLADE. Not just the stop. We use pretty expensive blades in the saw at work...


about $150 for a replacement stop block and new blade
 

Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Okay, I like the idea of a safer saw, but what kind of IDIOT decides to press his luck and stick his hand in it? I mean seriously. And to the scum lawyer who is trolling injuries with this idea...:thefinger

Exactly my thoughts. No technology works every single time. Although if this scumbag lawyer sawed his hand off during a demo I'd LMAO. Just like that lawyer who was showcasing "unbreakable" windows in Toronto and threw himself out of a skyscraper inadvertently.
 
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Gautama

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I can easily envision a time when all saws have this or similar tech as standard, even power tools. A simple circuit that disables a motor is all that's needed, if you complete the circuit the motor disengages. Wouldn't prevent injuries, but would reduce their severity.
 

Weird Tolkienish Figure

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I can easily envision a time when all saws have this or similar tech as standard, even power tools. A simple circuit that disables a motor is all that's needed, if you complete the circuit the motor disengages. Wouldn't prevent injuries, but would reduce their severity.

Just another thing to break and make saws and blades more expensive, all to protect morons from themselves.
 
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Gautama

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Meh. Accidents can happen to anyone. I prefer empathy to judgment.
 

67King

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Meh. Accidents can happen to anyone. I prefer empathy to judgment.

Yep. I've actually lost part of a finger, though it wasn't in a saw. It sucked then, and continues to **** 2 years later. Can't feel things, harder to dig change out of my pocket, have to play guitar differently.

Guy that owns it is a patent attorney, not some punk class action muckraker. And having sold a start up to a bigger company, I can see why he chose the route he did. Big companies in general need to be compelled to act, not many of them have foresight to bring out cool new products. I'm not saying I would have done things the way he did, but that I understand it after trying to license the technology for 2 years and continuously hitting brick walls.
 

neophyte

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Yep. I've actually lost part of a finger, though it wasn't in a saw. It sucked then, and continues to **** 2 years later. Can't feel things, harder to dig change out of my pocket, have to play guitar differently.

Guy that owns it is a patent attorney, not some punk class action muckraker. And having sold a start up to a bigger company, I can see why he chose the route he did. Big companies in general need to be compelled to act, not many of them have foresight to bring out cool new products. I'm not saying I would have done things the way he did, but that I understand it after trying to license the technology for 2 years and continuously hitting brick walls.

Steve Gass, the main owner of Sawstop, is a patent atorney, but saying he hit a brick wall trying to sell the technology isn't exactly true. The problems for Gass were closer to him trying to drive thru a forrest of trees, and he kept hitting the trees instead of managing to drive between them. Gass was in negotiations with a number of manufacturers including Ryobi and Black &Decker. The problems trying to license the technology in a large part had to do with the terms Gass wanted to license the technology.

From what I've read, Gass wanted a percentage licensing fee based on the retail price of the saws. Most of the manufacturers Gass approached sell saws with list retail prices significantly higher than the actual selling price of the saws, so the percentage Gass would have wanted might have wound up being close to or more than the tool dealers made of the saws. Gass also wouldn't indemnify the manufacturers against lawsuits brought due to the technology, or its failure to prevent injuries, or other unforseen problems.

Manufacturers probably also might have worried that adding sawstop technology to their saws could be seen as proof that past saw technology was inherently unsafe, and could leed to lawsuits from people who suffered past injuries.

Gass didn't help his reputation by trying to have legislation passed to require his technology. He also testified in a workers compensation lawsuit that his saw would have prevented injuries resulting from the improper use of a tablesaw that in no way shape or form was being used safely.

The Bosch Reax saw eliminates some of the objections to the original sawstop design, such ad the aluminum cartridge that stops, and can damage, the saw blade. Which may have been another objection from manufacturers to the sawstop design. At around the same time Bosch was announcing the Reax saw, their Skilsaw division started selling a worm drive table saw, which I presume will not stop anywhere near immediately if flesh touches it. Maybe Bosch has just decided to let the market decide which saw technology it wants.
 
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