Why is the frame if my jointer shocking me?

[bubinga]

Well, was making some items for a few benefits, and touched the metal switch box, got shocked, and another time, got shocked off the bed.
I did not look inside the switch or motor terminals yet, but if I don't see anything, is it most likely a short in the motor.
The motor is a bit slow to start.
I do need to note, that there is not a 3 prong plug on the cord, only 2.
But the guy (I brought it from)
Has an battery charger style clamp running to the ground wire. It is a plastic box, so there was nowhere to ground the clamp, so it was not grounded.
But I "didn't think" not having a ground in itself would cause the frame to shock me.
I was planning on getting the meter and check for continuity from the plug, to the frame.
I do have a different motor, from a craftsman table saw, all wired with a grounded plug and switch I can use
I was planning to put a proper plug on it, but again "I didn't think" lack of ground in itself would cause a shock, in less if I did have the ground, and indeed there us a short, it would have tripped my breaker.
Thanks, Anthony

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[Mechanical Noise]

I was planning to put a proper plug on it, but again "I didn't think" lack of ground in itself would cause a shock, in less if I did have the ground, and indeed there us a short, it would have tripped my breaker.
Thanks, Anthony

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Sounds like there's a partial short to ground. The partial short may, or may not, draw enough current to pop the circuit breaker if the case is grounded. A GFI outlet will pop with a much smaller unbalanced current. Don't use the tool unless the case is properly grounded. It's grounded to keep you safe.

I strongly suggest you brush up on the basics. This page looks OK.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/worksheets/safety-grounding/

 

[crguy]

FIX IT before you use it again. This is just ridiculous.

 

[jallyn]

It is not properly grounded. You are getting shocked as you provide a path to ground. Update your life insurance or ground the equipment.

 

[ttpete]

One side of the line is grounded to the jointer frame. You probably have bad insulation or a chafed wire somewhere. This could even be inside the motor, and it'll take an ohmmeter to find it.

 

[Wamsutta]

Update your life insurance or ground the equipment.

LOL

 

[Hagatronics]

Do you have it hooked up to a dust extractor with plastic pipe? All that air running through plastic pipe creates static electricity. You may need to ground long lengths of plastic pipe too.

 

[Thumper68]

I have a similar issue with my table saw and jointer when it is dry out, the dust builds up a static charge. Both are properly wired and grounded, most times is just a little tingle but there have been a few times during the winter when it is a bit more.

 

[Guster]

What type of motor does it have?

You mention it is slow to start. Normally that would indicate a failing start capacitor. Some older caps had metal shells that were bolted to the metal frame and may be starting to short internally.

Universal motors often have a filtering/protection capacitor which reduces sparking on the brushes, rf noise and the high voltage tingle you might otherwise experience with double insulated plastic cased power tools. Older filter caps are known to fail over time.

Jointers can also have a lot of vibration and older framed motors did not always employ decent strain relief. It's not uncommon for insulation to harden and brake or wear through in critical places. I've also seen wood dust become mildly conductive with regular oiling of moving parts.

 

[bubinga]

OK Thanks Guys, I'll see what I can find out with my meter.
Jallyn, You say,
"It is not properly grounded. You are getting shocked as you provide a path to ground. Update your life insurance or ground the equipment."
So if I ground it and don't get shocked any more,
is it OK to use then?
That"s what I'm asking.

Mechanical Noise, I will check the link,
but I have a lot of common sense, but not real Book smart.
So I have read the basics before, but seem to have trouble grasping the concepts, 100%.

I am here trying to learn, like everyone else.

 

[bubinga]

Guster, Its a Regular 3450 RPM Cap start Motor,
No brushes.
Thanks Karl, (I'll look it over, I don't need it to finish the job.
Yes, I was thinking to could be in the motor.
I'll use a jointer plane.
Thanks To all.

 

[Larryjones]

Try turning the plug around the other way, if the plug is polarized your box wiring may be reversed, if you don't have a polarized plug, get one.

 

[MrGiggles]

Had that problem on a table saw once, the hot wire was chafed just a little where the wire passed into the junction box. Grommets prevent this.

 

[Marctrees]

Two obvious problems even before we touch any kinda meter.

Anyway, ANY checks you make- put VOM on the "Ohms" setting, with your jointer UNPLUGGED.

You have two problems here - One -You do have a fault to ground, could be a number of possible reasons why, but you do.

Second - Because your machine is not grounded, now when the frame gets hot, instead of tripping a breaker, (and/ or GFI) it stays hot, ready to electrocute you.

The ckt breaker and GFI are two differently functioning "layers" of protection.

You're "fault" is either the motor itself, or something like MrGiggles had.

So - ground the machine as below, AND, find your ground fault.

Quickest fix to ground the machine- - Go to Big Box and buy 6' "Air Conditioner" extension cord.

That's what they're called (only cause they have heavier gauge wire, and that's the common use for them.

Cutoff the female end, install correctly, properly bonding Grounding wire to frame of machine, IDEALLY, the motor frame itself.

AND, you need to make sure the motor and machine are "bonded"

Google - "electrical bonding".

O boy, if you're not familiar with this stuff, I feel hesitant.

AT BARE MINIMUM - read and UNDERSTAND the link offered above by MechanicalNoise, at minimum.

This is nothing to be unsure about, it kills people every day. Marc

 

[bubinga]

Well Grounded the Battery charger type clamp he had on there, and it wasn't shocking me anymore, so I used it like that tonight.
I think i'm going to switch the motor with the T/S motor and switch set up I have, and go from there.
I may test that other motor, and if its OK, use it on this baby table saw I have.
I was fixing it up for The X girlfriends garage, But got it my Damn way now.
Its a nice little saw though, has the fence, If I can get $50.00 for it, I'd be Happy.

 

[bubinga]

I understand Bonding the motor and machine frame.
The plug can be plugged in either way, maybe I did plug it different this time.
The Outlet IS NOT BACKWARDS!!
as stated, Im switching the motor out anyways.
sounds like it needs bearings too.
May Just scrap it, if it's shorted too. .
Thanks For all the help Guys.

 

[bubinga]

I will read and understand the link.
Thanks Again

 

[bubinga]

What Is "My disaster protection "?

 

[FullRaceMerc]

Do you have it hooked up to a dust extractor with plastic pipe? All that air running through plastic pipe creates static electricity. You may need to ground long lengths of plastic pipe too.

I ran into that ^ once. We had a planer hooked up with spiral wire flex hose connected to plastic pipe overhead. Dry day & very dry wood. The wire acted like some sort of coil collector & would discharge if you got too close. Probably threw a 2" arc. Wicked. Felt like an ice pick to the top of the head. If somehow that were to connect to an ungrounded frame it seems like it could feel like a hit from the power source. Even if that is how you were collecting dust, you should still test the unit.

As mentioned above, even if you replace the motor, you should test for a short from hot to ground. I would start with unpluging the unit & measuring ohms between each prong on the plug & the frame. Then with the switch on. See if it reads anything from either prong to the frame.

As you have found, there is a reason why equipment should be grounded. It is to protect you when there is a short from hot to the metal frame. Without the ground you get hit when you touch the frame. With the ground connected it shorts directly thru the chassis to ground & should throw the breaker before you get hurt. This holds true for anything with a metal chassis. Appliances, tools, whatever. Get your ground wired into the plug so it is there every time.

Btw, don't mess around here. Even 110v is a very powerful hit if you are well grounded & your equipment has a charged chassis.

 

[bubinga]

Thanks Full race.
I will check it as described, before I change it out.
and Check it after I replace the motor, and make sure it's properly grounded, and bonded.
My Grandfather was a Local # 5 Sparky, He could have got me in the apprentice Program at 20 years Old,
But I was a Dumb ***, I still kick my self now and then, but Could'a, Should'a, Would'a
and also was not raised with a strong work ethic.

 

[bubinga]

Damn Shop Vac Shocked me Before, from Static.

 

[bubinga]

As you have found, there is a reason why equipment should be grounded. It is to protect you when there is a short from hot to the metal frame.
Good Advise
Without the ground you get hit when you touch the frame. With the ground connected it shorts directly thru the chassis to ground & should throw the breaker before you get hurt. This holds true for anything with a metal chassis. Appliances, tools, whatever. Get your ground wired into the plug so it is there every time.

Btw, don't mess around here. Even 110v is a very powerful hit if you are well grounded & your equipment has a charged chassis.

From what I understand, DC Voltage can be even more deadly?

 

[FullRaceMerc]

That quote in your post above is odd. It shows as being posted by Mechanical Noise, but it came from a a post I wrote.

I have heard that about DC too, but most of the DC stuff in our lives is low enough voltage that it isn't an issue. No direct knowledge on the subject here. Maybe if you had DC in the same voltage as AC it would be a problem. Any DC I've worked on has been in a closed circuit where you'd have to contact both pos & neg to complete a circuit. With AC you touch only hot & the earth below you completes the circuit. Even if it is correct, AC is plenty dangerous.

Awful GIF quoted below. I'm sure it's higher voltage than we normally run into, but still frightening.

 

[928'er]

I do need to note, that there is not a 3 prong plug on the cord, only 2.
But the guy (I brought it from)
Has an battery charger style clamp running to the ground wire. It is a plastic box, so there was nowhere to ground the clamp, so it was not grounded.

Seriously? And you wonder why you're getting shocked....

 

[Mechanical Noise]

From what I understand, DC Voltage can be even more deadly?

Because AC is continuously going from + to - , there are small periods in between where the voltage is around 0. Supposedly, this means that a person will completely lose muscle control at a somewhat lower DC voltage than a AC voltage. In the real world, the hazards are the same and the precautions are the same. Don't think something is "safer" because it's AC.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Mechanical Noise, I will check the link,
but I have a lot of common sense, but not real Book smart.
So I have read the basics before, but seem to have trouble grasping the concepts, 100%.

I am here trying to learn, like everyone else.

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Different people sometimes learn in different ways. Other webpages might explain things in a way you find clearer. Or a library book. Or you might know somebody who's knowledgeable and can help.

These sort of electrical problems are common. It's worth figuring it out. You'll see something like it again.

I really recommend you install GFI outlets in your work area. They're a great invention and I'm sure they've prevented many injuries and deaths. You can get GFI extension cords, too. GFI isn't expensive any more, either.

 

[bubinga]

Seriously? And you wonder why you're getting shocked....

No, I don't wonder. But I was saying, That in itself would not cause the shock
at, or voltage to the frame.
There still has to be a short, or as stated politely by someone above,
a "partial short"
But you guys are saying with a proper ground, and if a partial short did occur, I wouldn't get shocked , Right?
Like I said, must be the case, as grounding the battery style clip he had on the wire, I was not getting shocked.
although the Plus is not polarized either, I may have it reversed this time, If that would matter.
I don't Know, Im thinking it might.

 

[EdT]

All of the above suggestions are possible sources of the problem and if its "hot" from the building power, you need to get that resolved. Another possibility is just static electric charge build up as suggested above, but you don't need a dust collector for it to happen. Happens on my buffer a lot. It comes from the rubbing of things together especially if one of them is a pretty good insulator (like wood).

 

[TLCObsession]

I have seen leaky (physical) capacitors create leakage (electrically) current that will really get you.

 

[bubinga]

All of the above suggestions are possible sources of the problem and if its "hot" from the building power, you need to get that resolved. Another possibility is just static electric charge build up as suggested above, but you don't need a dust collector for it to happen. Happens on my buffer a lot. It comes from the rubbing of things together especially if one of them is a pretty good insulator (like wood).

I have seen leaky (physical) capacitors create leakage (electrically) current that will really get you.

EdT Thanks, No bud, I've been shocked a few times, It was Electric, Like house current, not static..
TLC, I will check it with my meter, and Visually.
As stated, it is a bit slow to start.
It has one of those Craftsman motors, with the Cap, in the base.
Would have to rig it.
I have a Craftsman 3450 motor from a Craftsman Table saw,
ready to go, Garage sale find. (seller upgraded his motor)
has wire, 3 prong plug, and switch, all ready to go.
I'm going to install that one, and check this motor out,
sort of hare to junk it, But I may.
I have a few more here.

 

[redmondjp]

1. Check motor for current leakage to ground. Ideally a megohmmeter ("megger") would be used to check the insulation resistance, but if this is the source of the problem, a simple ohmmeter, measuring from either lead of the motor to the frame, will show if there is an issue (should be open circuit).

2. Ensure that the motor housing is grounded to the green wire in the power cord, and that the circuit feeding the motor is grounded properly. If the motor has leakage (>5mA), with the machine plugged into a GFCI-protected circuit, it will trip off.

3. Ensure that the motor frame is properly bonded to the rest of the machine - this protects you from shock and also prevents a static charge from building up on any part of the machine. In most cases, just by virtue of the machine parts being metal and held together with metal fasteners, no additional connections are required.

Use an ohmmeter to check for continuity between various parts of the machine. Add a piece of wire between parts of the machine that don't have electrical continuity, so that they do.

 

[bubinga]

Ok Redmon, thanks

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