Outlet set up I don't understand

[Goodbeorning]

So I'm not a terribly experienced electrician. I'm a stage carpenter with some electrical knowledge. I follow a lot of your guides when it comes to doing work like this. But enough background.

I'm replacing outlets in an old condo when I came across this setup (picture attached).

2 neutral attached to the outlet
1 hot twisted with a second hot and a neutral attached to the outlet.
1 hot twisted to red.
No ground (anywhere in the condo, so far as I've seen)

It looks like the end of a sequence to me, but I've never seen this before and I'm not sure what to do with it other than wire the new outlet the same way.

Any advice?

 

[joe_padavano]

Was one of the two outlets in the duplex outlet controlled by a switch?

 

[Goodbeorning]

Was one of the two outlets in the duplex outlet controlled by a switch?

Not that I can find. Only outlet controlled by a switch is on the opposite wall

 

[jav]

I don't see what you wrote-

"1 hot twisted with a second hot and a neutral attached to the outlet"

what I see is:

3 neutrals (white)
3 hots (black)
1 red

7 wires total so likely (2) 14-2 & (1) 14-3 romex. could be 12awg but the configuration would be the same. I don't see 3 neutrals going to the outlet as one of the neutrals appears be wire nutted to a black.

Usually, when a 3 conductor romex is thrown into the mix (14-3) there's a "switch" function in there but it makes no sense that they'd feed or return either switch leg on the white conductor when black and red are available. Seems hokey to me .

And yes- if these wires are reasonably recent, there should be 3 grounds in the box

 

[cmanningjr]

Tap for the switched receptacle on the other wall..

Red and Black that are tapped together push them to the back of the box. Black pigtail that's tapped with the white goes on the hot side of the receptacle and the 2 whites on the other side..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Goodbeorning]

Tap for the switched receptacle on the other wall..

Red and Black that are tapped together push them to the back of the box. Black pigtail that's tapped with the white goes on the hot side of the receptacle and the 2 whites on the other side..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. That's what I did.

 

[Goodbeorning]

And yes- if these wires are reasonably recent, there should be 3 grounds in the box

There aren't grounds in the box, however, they're all metal boxes and it's a fairly old building. Some of the receptacles I'm replacing are 3 pronged, as well. So I feel like there's a good chance the ground is running in the wall, though I feel inclined to go get some romex and make my own grounds directly to the box.

Sorry if any of this sounds crazy- this is the first time I've done this on such an old building.

 

[cmanningjr]

There's not a ground.. you need to use 2 wire receptacles..

It was really common back in the day to use metal gangable boxes...

If you add a "ground" to the box... there's still no ground... Not exactly what you wanted to hear, but that's what you've got...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Goodbeorning]

There's not a ground.. you need to use 2 wire receptacles..

It was really common back in the day to use metal gangable boxes...

If you add a "ground" to the box... there's still no ground... Not exactly what you wanted to hear, but that's what you've got...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No? I was taught I could just tighten a ground around the screw in the back of the metal box and connect that to my ground screw. No good?

 

[Norcal]

No? I was taught I could just tighten a ground around the screw in the back of the metal box and connect that to my ground screw. No good?

Depends, if old NM cable it's a very bad thing as there is no grounding conductor, but if EMT was used as the wiring method and properly run back to the panel then the tubing is a code compliant/ recognized grounding conductor, one does have to verify that that is the case.

 

[cmanningjr]

No? I was taught I could just tighten a ground around the screw in the back of the metal box and connect that to my ground screw. No good?

No, in order to have a "ground" you have to have a path to the panel and then to a ground rod..

Just guessing, you don't have this..This is romex in a house correct?? In a commercial setting with emt, you could get by with that at one time. Not code compliant now though.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zipper98]

Are you sure there is no ground? At some point in time (1960's?) they would use NM and attach the ground to the outside of the box with a screw, leaving only the hot and neutral visible inside the box. Worth checking.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No, in order to have a "ground" you have to have a path to the panel and then to a ground rod..

Just guessing, you don't have this..This is romex in a house correct?? In a commercial setting with emt, you could get by with that at one time. Not code compliant now though.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grounding electrodes have NOTHING to do with equipment grounding.

 

[teamextreme]

This is romex in a house correct?? In a commercial setting with emt, you could get by with that at one time. Not code compliant now though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Care to cite the code section that prohibits the use of metallic conduit as an equipment grounding conductor? (Hint, you won't find one).

To answer the OP's question regarding grounding, I would double check what zipper said regarding grounds being terminated on the outside of the box. This was common practice in the early 60's and would provide a proper ground for your receptacles. You can install a pigtail to the metal box or use self grounding receptacles. Opening the panel will tell you pretty quickly if there are any ground wires in the romex as you will see them landed there. If there are any unfinished areas like a basement, that might provide a clue as well if you can examine the exterior of any boxes installed there.

Regarding the wiring, didn't you remove the outlet yourself? If it was working before, just re-install the way it came out. But with the red wire and "strange" wiring present, there is very likely a switch arrangement present, if not at this receptacle, then possibly another downstream.

 

[wssix99]

Please add your location to your profile. Are you in a City? Are the wires actually in conduit?

 

[75gmck25]

There are a couple of places in my house (wired with old armored cable) where I was confused because they used 3 wire cable (white, black, red), but it was not a 3 way circuit.

The wiring scheme in my house used the white/black wires to provide constant power to a chain of receptacles, and the red was used as a pass-through to a light switch. My guess is that they did not want to run extra cable for separate runs to switch a basement light. If you can understand my shorthand, the wiring scheme was:
panel - black/white wire -- light -- black/white/red wire -- receptacle -- black/white wire (switch loop) - light switch

This provided constant power to the receptacle, but the red wire enabled a switch loop that passed through the receptacle and up to the wall switch.

Bruce

 

[Wirepuller]

Just because it's white doesn't mean it's always the neutral.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wirepuller]

No? I was taught I could just tighten a ground around the screw in the back of the metal box and connect that to my ground screw. No good?

No Bueno. You have 2 recommended options.

1-find the first outlet in the circuit and install a gfi you can then install 3 prong outlets down stream of that.

2-put the circuit in a gfi breaker.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[teamextreme]

No Bueno. You have 2 recommended options.

1-find the first outlet in the circuit and install a gfi you can then install 3 prong outlets down stream of that.

2-put the circuit in a gfi breaker.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True if this is not a grounded circuit, but like mentioned above, if the ground is terminated outside the box, then a pigtail would be fine.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

True if this is not a grounded circuit, but like mentioned above, if the ground is terminated outside the box, then a pigtail would be fine.

OP needs to verify if the j box is grounded.

 

[CJ7VFR]

OP needs to verify if the j box is grounded.

I wonder if the original electrician wrapped the ground wire around one of the wire clamp screws at the top or bottom of the box?

My house was built in 1955, and as I replace things I thought there were no ground wires in the boxes because I didn't see any ground wires pigtailed in there.

But on closer look, all the metal boxes have the ground wire(s) wrapped around one (on in some cases both) of the wire clamp screws at the top or bottom of the box.

Maybe he has the same case?

Jim