Abandoned Electrical Wires.. what to do, behind wall

[freebo86]

Hey guys, in the process of rewiring receptacles in my garage. My garage was fed by a single 15A feed from my house panel which fed the lights, garage door opener, 3 receptacles.

Last weekend I installed a new 60A sub panel in there and converting stuff over. However I am leaving the 15A circuit live as that will still feed my lights and the single receptacle for the garage door opener.

The other receptacles I've feed new 12/2 wires from the top down however I am unsure what do do with the old 14/2 wires that went to them? I do not want to tear walls out to pull these out. Can I simply cap them off (merits) and tape them up with electrical tape?

 

[Todd.Brock]

If they are truly dead and are disconnected at both ends, I have heard of people cutting the line taping and pushing it in the wall. Not sure if that's right or wrong, but if there is no possible way to energize the line ....

 

[ForceFed70]

Many will recommend using a wirenut to short the hot and neutral together. That way if the line is ever energized, it will immediately trip the breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is the garage attached or detached?

 

[freebo86]

I can't attach the hot and neutral as like I said I still need that 15A feed to stay energized. Problem is some wires are truely dead some are not as I am still keeping it active for the lights but the receptacles fed off it so now where I unhooked the receptacles that end would still be alive.

Garage is attached

 

[CNGsaves]

WyliesDiesel asked about Detached vs Attached garage since a detached garage cannot have more than one live feed.

OP, since your garage is attached, you now just have various supply points of power which is fine.

If it were me, I'd leave all the electrical outlets that are fed with 15A circuit (ie along with lights) and just label those outlets as 15A.

Add more new circuits of 12/2 wire on 20A circuits which will be outlets that you'll likely actually use for power equipment, etc.

Those original "wimpy builder grade" 15A outlets, can just be for stuff like Battery Tender battery charger, cordless tool chargers, etc.

You could use 4 gang boxes and half would be 15A fed from the original, and the other half would be 20A fed from your new 12/2 wire to the 60A subpanel.

 

[CJ7VFR]

What size wire did you run from the house to the new sub-panel in the garage? And what size double pole breaker did you install in the house panel for your new sub?

Just curious.

Jim

 

[ForceFed70]

I love how people look for code infractions/problems rather than help the OP with his question.

OP: It's not appropriate to have an energized cable that's not terminated properly (in a box with a coverplate). Nor is it appropriate to have multiple circuits in a single box. If you cannot disconnect both ends of the cable so that you can wirenut the hot and neutral, then you shouldn't be doing it. Sounds like the outlet you want to keep on the original 15A circuit may be at the end/middle of the old circuit. If that's the case I recommend you rethink your plans.

I'll recommend 3 options for you, in order of my personal preference if I was facing this:
1)leave all of the old outlets and wiring alone and put new boxes/outlets beside them for the new circuit.
2)re-wire that 1 outlet to feed from your new subpanel like the others. A garage door opener isn't a big load(1-2amps) when in use and is only in use for a minute or 2 a day in total. It's not going to made a significant difference in capacity of your new subpanel to feed other electrical needs.
3) Install a new circuit/outlet for the garage door opener. Generally with a door opener, you can put the outlet in the ceiling, and you can usually access fairly easily from the attic.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I love how people look for code infractions/problems rather than help the OP with his question...

How is asking the OP some simple questions about his setup, so proper answers can be given, not helping him?

I didn't read a single response to the OP's questions looking for code infractions or problems. Not a single response said he was doing anything wrong, or that he would be violating anything.

Where are you coming up with this? If you are referring to my questions, then just for your own reference, I was asking because I want to do something similar to my garage, and I wanted to know what he did.

Jim

 

[ForceFed70]

How is asking the OP some simple questions about his setup, so proper answers can be given, not helping him?

I didn't read a single response to the OP's questions looking for code infractions or problems. Not a single response said he was doing anything wrong, or that he would be violating anything.

Where are you coming up with this? If you are referring to my questions, then just for your own reference, I was asking because I want to do something similar to my garage, and I wanted to know what he did.

Jim

Jim, the OP's question was about what to do with abandoned electrical wires.

How does the size/design of his NEW electrical equipment have anything to do with answering the question?

Questions about attached vs detached are obviously looking for a code infraction. Your questions, which when answered would provide absolutely no information that would help with answering the OPs question seem like you're doing the same. Or perhaps you have a better explanation for why you'd be asking these questions?

 

[MopardudeWI]

Jim, the OP's question was about what to do with abandoned electrical wires.

How does the size/design of his NEW electrical equipment have anything to do with answering the question?

Questions about attached vs detached are obviously looking for a code infraction. Your questions, which when answered would provide absolutely no information that would help with answering the OPs question seem like you're doing the same. Or perhaps you have a better explanation for why you'd be asking these questions?

Sometimes knowing a persons whole plan can aid in helping them make a better plan but I am cynical so I was thinking the same that they were looking for code infractions. Not that is a bad thing there is a reason for codes in the first place.

OP: I get that you want to keep your original 15A lines for lights and garage door, you should be able to disconnect the wall outlets from that circuit to make it safe to wire nut together. If you don't know where the circuit starts and ends, what I would do is turn off that circuit at breaker, go through all the boxes and disconnect all the hot leads and wire cap them separately. Now turn power back on and go find the hot wire. A NCV tester will make this faster. Now you now where the start of the circuit is, and you can start reconnecting the hot leads back together one box at a time. Each time you connect a box back up go searching for the hot wire again to you know what is feeding what. Its a lot of dinking around but you will have a good understanding of how that circuit is wired when you are done and only what you want wired will be than.

 

[Mustang51js]

Use an old work box cut into the sheetrock and cap off wires,then a blank cover. Or put a outlet in

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I love how people look for code infractions/problems rather than help the OP with his question.

OP: It's not appropriate to have an energized cable that's not terminated properly (in a box with a coverplate). Nor is it appropriate to have multiple circuits in a single box. If you cannot disconnect both ends of the cable so that you can wirenut the hot and neutral, then you shouldn't be doing it. Sounds like the outlet you want to keep on the original 15A circuit may be at the end/middle of the old circuit. If that's the case I recommend you rethink your plans.

I'll recommend 3 options for you, in order of my personal preference if I was facing this:
1)leave all of the old outlets and wiring alone and put new boxes/outlets beside them for the new circuit.
2)re-wire that 1 outlet to feed from your new subpanel like the others. A garage door opener isn't a big load(1-2amps) when in use and is only in use for a minute or 2 a day in total. It's not going to made a significant difference in capacity of your new subpanel to feed other electrical needs.
3) Install a new circuit/outlet for the garage door opener. Generally with a door opener, you can put the outlet in the ceiling, and you can usually access fairly easily from the attic.

That is not a code issue. Maybe its not appropriate for u.

Jim, the OP's question was about what to do with abandoned electrical wires.

How does the size/design of his NEW electrical equipment have anything to do with answering the question?

Questions about attached vs detached are obviously looking for a code infraction. Your questions, which when answered would provide absolutely no information that would help with answering the OPs question seem like you're doing the same. Or perhaps you have a better explanation for why you'd be asking these questions?

Having multiple feeds to a detached structure is dangerous and can cause someone to be shocked. My primary concern wasnt whether the OP has a code violation but rather possible dangerous wiring. Obviously, I could care less if someone has code violations in their house garage or shop as many could care less whether what they have violates code...

 

[rburke65]

Why can't you have more than one feed to a garage? You have more than one feed in your house!

 

[Norcal]

Why can't you have more than one feed to a garage? You have more than one feed in your house!

If it is a detached structure, the NEC does not allow it.

 

[MopardudeWI]

Why can't you have more than one feed to a garage? You have more than one feed in your house!

Logistically it makes life easier, if you needed to kill that circuit or reset it you would always have to go back to the main structure to do that.

Lets say the next owners of his house need to change something. They don't realize the garage is double fed. They kill the main breaker in the garage thinking everything is now dead and they don't test before they take anything apart, it will be zap city for them!

 

[brewchief]

Why can't you have more than one feed to a garage? You have more than one feed in your house!

You only have one feed into a house, that feed is then split into many circuits, the same thing should be done with a detached garage.

 

[freebo86]

I ran a 6/3 wire with a 60/2 breaker to this sub panel.

Hmm well now I am not sure how to proceed with this, with the size of a garage having that many receptacles makes no sense. I guess if I could find where that main feed comes in and at what point it branches off I could tackle it like that.

Having the wires terminated behind the wall is a no go I guess? I've already unconnected the receptacles and switched over to my 12/2 maybe I'll use my volt meter and check for continuity on the old lines to see if I can locate either end from certain parts I've unconnected

 

[CJ7VFR]

Jim...Or perhaps you have a better explanation for why you'd be asking these questions?

I did. You obviously didn't read all of my response to you.

So just incase you missed it, I stated in my response to you the first time, I am interested because I have the same basic setup as the OP in my garage, and I am thinking of doing what he is doing.

I asked my question to him instead of starting a whole new thread because he asked for advice on what to do from this forum, and asked if what he wanted to do would be ok to do. From what people have told him, and my question to him, which he answered by the way, so thanks for that OP, I now know what I can do, and more importantly, what I can't, as my garage is DETACHED from the house, and I can't run two separate circuits to the garage as wyliesdiesels has said. I did not know that, but now I do.

So I will have to pull out the simple circuit running to my garage and replace it with one similar in size to what the OP said he ran. I now have the need for more power in my garage due to using more power tools, a compressor, two garage door openers, lights, battery maintainers for my old Jeep, and two receptacles I want to put outside the garage for stuff like vacuuming the car and Christmas lights.

Is that a better explanation for you?

Jim

 

[freebo86]

Well I think this turned out better than expected. So after I started converting the receptacles over and checking some of the Hot & Neutrals at one point I basically had no lights or anything in the garage even tho that old 15A feed was still energized.

Turns out where the circuit starts I had actually my new 20A brought in that once the sub panel in garage was energized my door opener and lights worked.

So I went back and basically found where I still had a energized line on the old 15A circuit and found it at that location I merited the hot and neutral together, went to test if I turn not he old 15A feed in the main panel it trips instantly.

So at this point the entire garage is converted over and the one main line that gets energized from the old circuit is joined together so if someone tries to flip that breaker it trips.

 

[justsam]

Sounds like you found the best solution.

If the circuit is no longer used, I would just pull the breaker for it and wire nut the end of the wire that was terminated on the breaker.

 

[freebo86]

Yah thats a good idea, however that 15A breaker that feeds the garage actually is a 30A as well. Because that runs my water tank.

At first I thought it was a half breaker.. but now that I look at it closer its actually 1 solid breaker with 1 pole being 15A and the other pole being 30A.. How is this even possible?

 

[CJ7VFR]

Do you mean something similar to this. Sorry for the big picture.

Jim

 

[freebo86]

Yeap thats actually what it looks like

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yah thats a good idea, however that 15A breaker that feeds the garage actually is a 30A as well. Because that runs my water tank.

At first I thought it was a half breaker.. but now that I look at it closer its actually 1 solid breaker with 1 pole being 15A and the other pole being 30A.. How is this even possible?

Post a pic.

Is the water tank 120v?

 

[CJ7VFR]

Do you have any open spots in your main panel? Most times people use the tandem breakers to open up a spot or two to be able to add some new breakers so they can run a new circuit, like you want to do for your garage feed.

If the tandem breaker you have looks like the one shown, then it appears that someone bought a 30/15 so they could make room for something else. They make 15/15, 15/20, 20/20 and so on. I have a few of each of those in my main panel.

If you don't have too many tandem breakers in your main panel already, and you want to make room for the 60 amp double pole breaker you wanted to add to supply power to the sub-panel in your garage, then you might be able to install a few more tandem breakers to open up the two spots needed for your 60A.

I think there is a maximum number of tandems allowed in a panel. At least that is what I have read here on this forum. Others will be able to answer that question better.

Jim

 

[freebo86]

I have a ton of open spots in my panel. I am unsure why were talking about making room for the 60A double pole breaker?

It's already installed and all functioning, the reason I brought up that 15/30 breaker as someone suggested I remove the 15A feed that runs to the garage (existing feed) but I can't do that as its a tandem breaker with the water tank.

 

[Radix2]

I have a ton of open spots in my panel. I am unsure why were talking about making room for the 60A double pole breaker?

It's already installed and all functioning, the reason I brought up that 15/30 breaker as someone suggested I remove the 15A feed that runs to the garage (existing feed) but I can't do that as its a tandem breaker with the water tank.

While you can't remove the 30 circuit, you can...

Remove the 15a wire from the breaker so that there is no 15a feed to the garage anymore.

Or

Remove the 15/30 breaker and replace with a 30 breaker then connect your water tank to that and disconnect the 15a as above.

I don't like the idea of a breaker permanently connected to a short circuit.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I have a ton of open spots in my panel. I am unsure why were talking about making room for the 60A double pole breaker?

It's already installed and all functioning, the reason I brought up that 15/30 breaker as someone suggested I remove the 15A feed that runs to the garage (existing feed) but I can't do that as its a tandem breaker with the water tank.

I just mentioned it because it is odd that someone would put a tandem breaker in a panel that has room for regular breakers, and I forgot you had already hooked up the 60Amp breaker in your main panel! My bad...

As Radix2 suggested, you have two easy ways to remove the original 15 amp circuit running to your garage. Both of his suggestions will work. The first one is free, the second will only cost you a few bucks for a new 30 amp breaker.

If you flip the 15 amp side of that tandem breaker off, does anything else besides the garage turn off?

Let us know what you do, and post some pics!!!

Jim