Got shafted by my township!!!

[CBR9Seadoo]

Hey all:

Just thought I would share my pain.

Last night I went to my township's board meeting to see the out come of a variance I requested. As you can tell by the title....they turned me down.

Here is what went on.

My township has an ordinance that says you cannot have any out building bigger than a total of 1500 sqft if you live on 2+ acres. Unless they are attached to your dwelling, but then they aren't out buildings...duh. anyways

I currently have a 40x30 building ~1200 sqft and applied for a variance because I wanted to add on a 24x48 garage to house my vehicles in a clean are while I was making a mess in my existing building. I have just over two acres which are wooded. This new addition could barely be seen during the winter with the leave off. So, very secluded. So at the meeting in Sept, I went in front of them to see what they thought of the variance, before applying and giving them the $500 fee.

All three gentlemen on the board said they don't see any major issues. So, naturally I put in my application for a variance of 650 sqft over the 1500 limit. Paid my $500 and had to wait till last night (Oct 5, 09). I get to the meeting and they started to talk about it and denied it. I was so pissed. It was just like I was robbed. They reason they denied it was that I didn't "Prove a hardship" - what they called it. Here are the questions that werre to be answered.


1. That there are exceptional and extraordinary circumstances or conditions applying to the property in question as to the intended use of the property that do not apply generally to other properties in the same zoning district.

2. That such variance is necessary for the preservation and enjoyment of a substantial property right similar to that possessed by other properties in the same district and in the same vicinity. The possibility of increased financial return shall not in itself be deemed sufficient to warrant a variance.

3. That the authorizing of such variance will not be of substantial detriment to adjacent property and will not materially impair the intent and purpose of this zoning ordinance or the public interest.

4. That the condition or situation of the specific piece of property for which the variance is sought is not of so general or recurrent a nature as to make reasonably practicable the formulation of a general regulation for such conditions or situation.


5. That the variance requested is the minimum variance, which would alleviate the hardship.


So, now that I have calmed down. I am working on plans to build what I can. Approx 18' x 24'.

 

[Call me the Breeze]

I would have just built it anyways, then when asked say what? you need a permit to do that?

 

[benjamming]

Wow, have to ask permission to build on your land that you paid for? Tough $500 money order there.

 

[sigtauenus]

I considered asking for a similar variance here in Virginia Beach, and was told not to waste my money applying.

 

[JohnK007]

So, now that I have calmed down. I am working on plans to build what I can. Approx 18' x 24'.

I'd be tempted to take it right to the limit and go 20' X 25'. Maybe back off 6" on one dimension so I come out around 499 sq ft so those A--holes can do nothing about it. Hell, 20' trusses aren't hard to find.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

I'd be tempted to take it right to the limit and go 20' X 25'. Maybe back off 6" on one dimension so I come out around 499 sq ft so those A--holes can do nothing about it. Hell, 20' trusses aren't hard to find.

Can't go that big. My limit is 1500 sqft. My existing is 30x40..so 1200 sqft that leaves me 300 to play with. I am going to push it and put in a 18.6 x 24.

 

[wadd1]

Sounds like my little town
they want permits for every little move you make
reno's, landscaping etc i swear they will want one to mow
your lawn soon

 

[terabyte]

Do they say anything about how high you can go?

 

[blkhonda1991]

unless my math is wrong, i think your initial math was off...your building would have been 850 sf over the limit, but either way you were going to get denied since there was no hardship shown in order to justify the variance. if they wanted to allow bigger out buildings they would have rewritten the rules, to allow you to build a bigger building means they will have to allow everyone else to do the same...they have to drawn the line somewhere.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

unless my math is wrong, i think your initial math was off...your building would have been 850 sf over the limit, but either way you were going to get denied since there was no hardship shown in order to justify the variance. if they wanted to allow bigger out buildings they would have rewritten the rules, to allow you to build a bigger building means they will have to allow everyone else to do the same...they have to drawn the line somewhere.

You are correct. They did draw the line, but they should have said no when I first went to them before applying. Now it seems like they just wanted to take my money.

 

[Stinger]

Does a lean-to count towards your sq ft limit? If not, how enclosed can it be before it is no longer a lean-to? I'm thinking a rather large one with one small bay left open or something.

 

[Costner]

Wow, have to ask permission to build on your land that you paid for?

Are there parts of the nation that this isn't the case? If so, I surely woudln't want to live there because I imagine people have constructed all types of shacks on their land thereby reducing property values around them.

Sometimes codes go too far I'll admit that much, but requiring a building permit before construction begins is pretty commonplace. It protects property owners and helps maintain property values.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Can you build another, seperate building of maximum allowed size? If you can, do so, then after a while, add a breezway between the buildings with a 1 inch physical gap for building seperation. (Roofs not connected) Leakage can be lessened by allowing the roof overhangs to overlap, but not touch. Two buildings, yet still somewhat one.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Does a lean-to count towards your sq ft limit? If not, how enclosed can it be before it is no longer a lean-to? I'm thinking a rather large one with one small bay left open or something.

This is exactly what I was going to do. I am going to put up my originaly 24' x 48' roof but only enclose 18' of it and build the remaing 30' like a pole shed.

Should be problem solved. I am going to talk to the building board at 2pm today to see.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Can you build another, seperate building of maximum allowed size? If you can, do so, then after a while, add a breezway between the buildings with a 1 inch physical gap for building seperation. (Roofs not connected) Leakage can be lessened by allowing the roof overhangs to overlap, but not touch. Two buildings, yet still somewhat one.

I wish, but no. All building can only equal 1500sqft.

 

[noslo04]

When was the current zoning ordinance enacted? If the existing building is older than the current ordinance, an argument could made that the older (and likely less restrictive) zoning conditions be applied to the property.

 

[Piper]

ya, I'd add the building and put a breezeway between. In a year or so close in the breezeway for "safety" reasons or something. This is what happens when committees don't use common sense.

 

[Ezzie]

I agree, check into that. I am currently considering replacing an old garage that by today's bylaws in my municipality is too close to the property line. I found a clause in the bylaws that grandfather's the footprint so I can replace the existing structure as long as I don't get any closer than it is today It was originally built about 35 yrs. ago before the current bylaws were updated.

 

[Brad54]

Are there parts of the nation that this isn't the case? If so, I surely woudln't want to live there because I imagine people have constructed all types of shacks on their land thereby reducing property values around them.

Sometimes codes go too far I'll admit that much, but requiring a building permit before construction begins is pretty commonplace. It protects property owners and helps maintain property values.

If you want to live in a restricted community, then move into a deed restricted community where you don't have to worry about your neighbors dropping your property value. Otherwise, **** it up.

To the OP--looks like rather than save the costs of a wall by adding on to your existing building, you'll need to just build an additional building. Put it next to your shop. Hell, pave the area between them, build a lean-to roof from the big building to ABOVE the roof of the small building, and have covered storage for a trailer, mowers, etc. etc.

Are there restriction on how many buildings you can have on your property?

And to the guys that said "Just build it..." cities and counties can make you remove any non-approved, non-permitted structure or additions, at your expense. I've even heard of them going into someone's finished basement and making them put it back to unfinished because they didn't have permits and inspections.

-Brad

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Here is a pic of how my house and currect shed are positioned with the new one attached.

 

[JohnK007]

Can't go that big. My limit is 1500 sqft. My existing is 30x40..so 1200 sqft that leaves me 300 to play with. I am going to push it and put in a 18.6 x 24.

Sorry, must have had a brain fart. Although you clearly wrote 1500, somehow I read it 2000.

 

[mrb]

appeal their decision, and make your case stronger. A zoning board (or whatever you have) cannot grant a variance simply because they want to. That would be a violation of law. They have to make the legally required findings. An attorney is helpful here....

 

[twostory]

Rather than fighting the variance denial,

Can you add onto your existing house with an "attached" garage expansion.

Many area consider a "breeze way" from the house to the garage building part of the house.

Thus the house+breezeway+garage = one structure (i.e. not a detached garage)

BTW, it only cost $100 to apply for a variance in my county, your $500 fee is very excessive.

 

[Motown 454]

I'm going through something simular. I need a varience to build a garage closer to the street. They have a 20' setback and I would like to move to a 5' setback. I live in a city where houses are within 8' of each other in some places. My neighbor across the street said she didn't think they would let me have the varience. but I know its because she would opose it . She gets involved with everything that goes on in the neighborhood. Its the only place it will fit on my property other than attached to the front of my house . Which I'm trying to avoid. Good luck with your project.
Wayne

 

[mad57]

is the property considered farmable? in my town there exceptions to out buildings if they are for farming. also get everything on tape recording, and it is legal to video tape your meeting, just tell them that you are. dont let them tell you diffrent, i would also get everything!!! in writing signed by homever. makes a diffrence in a hick town they get scared , ask me how i know this.... $25,000 in lawyers fees later for something that should have been just permit cost. and a years of stress and harrasment. good luck.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Are there restriction on how many buildings you can have on your property?

-Brad

You can have as many building as you want as long as they all, when added together are less than 1500 Sqft.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

My proptery is Zoned "Low Density Residential" which is still residential according to them.

Some of you have mention connecting the house and the shop. If I do this I can build as big as I want with out a variance. How stupid is that. But what the drawing that I attached doesn't show, is the ***** who build my 30x40 shop before I bought the place didn't square it up to the house. It is sitting at an angle to the house.

I just got back from the township. The whole lean-to idea is out. They define that as part of the stucture, so it count as the total square footage.

 

[OccupantRJ]

I have seen several out of square expansions that looked really nice. Sometimes it adds interest to the house. Make the expansion and roof completely at angle to the house, don't "bend" the expansion.

 

[nickleone]

Tim J,
To add extra SPACE with out adding square footage put pop outs like bay windows at bench height along any walls that you can. You don't need windows across the whole wall just on the ends of each pop out.

Nick

 

[buening]

Check into the breezeway idea, it's pretty much your best bet. I don't think you'd been happy with the lean-to idea as everything will be exposed to the elements. Build your addition to the shop between your house and your current shop and attach a breezeway to it. You may have to live with it being at an angle. I've seen much worse things.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Great ideas guys.

I will keep you updated on what happens.

 

[brownbagg]

why does anybody need that much space, thats alot of building

 

[JamieK]

Some of you have mention connecting the house and the shop. If I do this I can build as big as I want with out a variance. How stupid is that. But what the drawing that I attached doesn't show, is the ***** who build my 30x40 shop before I bought the place didn't square it up to the house. It is sitting at an angle to the house.

QUOTE]

This thread shows a garage attached to a house at a angle. Doesn't look too bad.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39357

Jamie

 

[twostory]

I looked at your drawing. The current detached garage is 40ft from your house.

If you move your proposed garage addition to fit between you garage & house, you would only have 20 ft from the house to the "new" detached garage addition.

A 20 ft breezeway would not be very long. (i.e. not much $ and looks good)

You may need to move the garage door on the existing detached garage

Here is an example of a nicely done breezeway
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12538

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

Hey all:

Just thought I would share my pain.

Last night I went to my township's board meeting to see the out come of a variance I requested. As you can tell by the title....they turned me down.

Here is what went on.

My township has an ordinance that says you cannot have any out building bigger than a total of 1500 sqft if you live on 2+ acres. Unless they are attached to your dwelling, but then they aren't out buildings...duh. anyways

I currently have a 40x30 building ~1200 sqft and applied for a variance because I wanted to add on a 24x48 garage to house my vehicles in a clean are while I was making a mess in my existing building. I have just over two acres which are wooded. This new addition could barely be seen during the winter with the leave off. So, very secluded. So at the meeting in Sept, I went in front of them to see what they thought of the variance, before applying and giving them the $500 fee.

All three gentlemen on the board said they don't see any major issues. So, naturally I put in my application for a variance of 650 sqft over the 1500 limit. Paid my $500 and had to wait till last night (Oct 5, 09). I get to the meeting and they started to talk about it and denied it. I was so pissed. It was just like I was robbed. They reason they denied it was that I didn't "Prove a hardship" - what they called it. Here are the questions that werre to be answered.


1. That there are exceptional and extraordinary circumstances or conditions applying to the property in question as to the intended use of the property that do not apply generally to other properties in the same zoning district.

2. That such variance is necessary for the preservation and enjoyment of a substantial property right similar to that possessed by other properties in the same district and in the same vicinity. The possibility of increased financial return shall not in itself be deemed sufficient to warrant a variance.

3. That the authorizing of such variance will not be of substantial detriment to adjacent property and will not materially impair the intent and purpose of this zoning ordinance or the public interest.

4. That the condition or situation of the specific piece of property for which the variance is sought is not of so general or recurrent a nature as to make reasonably practicable the formulation of a general regulation for such conditions or situation.


5. That the variance requested is the minimum variance, which would alleviate the hardship.


So, now that I have calmed down. I am working on plans to build what I can. Approx 18' x 24'.

Just don't build a bulldozer...

 

[sigtauenus]

why does anybody need that much space, thats alot of building

You're kidding, right?

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

I need to get some pictures posted. The hard part about building between them is that my back yard really slopes off and I have already done a lot of landscaping and dirt work that would all have to be redone.

Also, I have a couple old growth oak trees in the area between the house and the existing shop. I chose the spot I did because there were no trees to be cut down and had already brought in 500+ yards of fill to level it off.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

why does anybody need that much space, thats alot of building

Why not? I currently have a Mohawk two post lift in my 30x40. This is not a lot of space once you start tearing into a car and I do not want a car with a 5k-10k paint job anywhere near the area where I am working on another car.

also, by the time you put in a couple riding mowers and a couple 4 wheelers, the space is limited.

Go Big or Go HOME

 

[twostory]

1. That there are exceptional and extraordinary circumstances or conditions applying to the property in question as to the intended use of the property that do not apply generally to other properties in the same zoning district.

2. That such variance is necessary for the preservation and enjoyment of a substantial property right similar to that possessed by other properties in the same district and in the same vicinity. The possibility of increased financial return shall not in itself be deemed sufficient to warrant a variance.

4. That the condition or situation of the specific piece of property for which the variance is sought is not of so general or recurrent a nature as to make reasonably practicable the formulation of a general regulation for such conditions or situation.

Also, I have a couple old growth oak trees in the area between the house and the existing shop. I chose the spot I did because there were no trees to be cut down and had already brought in 500+ yards of fill to level it off.

If you appeal the variance, this is your hardship

a) slope of the land does not allow me to expand my house.

b) If I were to bring in fill to expand the house, I would have to remove a few "old growth" oak trees.

c) (Maybe??) Building the garage in the proposed area is the only way I can afford to do this construction.

I read two years of variances before I filled in my application. My county almost always allows the variance if the lot is steep and trees would need to be removed. Read the past history on what your variance board approved.

You only have so many days to file an appeal, otherwise you have to usually wait 12 months to file again.

 

[ymerej]

c) (Maybe??) Building the garage in the proposed area is the only way I can afford to do this construction.

In my area money concerns do not count as a hardship, no matter what.

But the slope of the land and trees (old growth oak none the less) sound like good ones to me. They are unique to your property (which is why you should get a variance and not everyone else), and show that you care about your property and don't want to take them out.