Decent Metric Tap & Die Set?

[MotoCARR]

I typically buy tools based on use and best bang for the buck. For example, Harbor Freight impact sockets on a Snap-On ratchet. It's worth it to pay for a fine tooth ratchet when you're in a tight space but for a home garage it's hard for me to pay $150 for a set of sockets.

With tap & dies being somewhat of a precision/high wear tool, I'm hesitant to buy a $30 set. I've bought "Harbor Freight" drill bits, blades, etc. and they're great on anything but metal

Anyone give the HF set a try? Recommendations on a "decent" for your average garage tinkerer?

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/tap-die/40-pc-carbon-steel-metric-tap-and-die-set-62832.html

 

[Tim37]

I would steer clear of the HF. the Irwin seem to be decent check pawn shops I have seen older craftsman and tool truck brands go fairly cheap.

 

[SIKPUP]

I have a set of these ... They have saved me doing auto repairs by being able to fix the threads on exhaust manifolds and other things . I have not used them to cut new threads, but for the $$ , you cant go wrong if you don't abuse them.. I would buy another set if I use these up , but so far so good !!

SIKPUP

 

[shawhite]

i have been taugh taps are not something to cheap out on. I usually buy hss taps and dies. I try to stay away from sets because usually there will be a handful you might use and the rest of the set just sits there.

 

[woody 73]

Taps & dies we must have that question come up a lot on the GJ but the GJ search section *****...

I find that cheap and good never mix very well kind of like oil and water. Best to buy only what you need like someone else said you will never use the whole set.

Interesting talk I had with another GJ member and my question was how long do you use a tap before it becomes a throw away item and the answer I got was three times use before you toss it away; (but most people do not do that).

Very interesting topic in that I was at a garage sale and I bought a box of used taps enough to last me a lifetime of use but only in sae not metric.

I would think op if you were not going to use them very much and you were not going to work on something like full time engine re-building then the HF set would fit your needs.

 

[MotoCARR]

I have a set of these ... They have saved me doing auto repairs by being able to fix the threads on exhaust manifolds

Ha! Exactly what I need it them for.

Mainly looking for a set to fix cross-threading and or clean up existing rusty threads.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Any HF tool that has a threaded adjuster (like their locking pliers) should have a tap run though the threaded hole and a die run over the threaded adjuster. It will be amazing how much better they work.

 

[Tim37]

One of the things I have found with cheaper taps is they break a lot easier. A broken tap can make a pita job a night mare

 

[2oolhound]

I think everybody should have a set of metric and sae. From there you can get your specialty ones as you need them. When you need them you don't want to have to drop everything and run around trying to find the one you want. Having a set around usually satisfies the immediate need.

I have found the Irwin/Hanson sets to be pretty decent for the money. They are not hss but they cut night and day better than the cheap sets. Unfortunately their new sets are now made in china so I can't vouch for their quality. I'd search ebay for made in USA, England or Canada sets. I can't speak for the HF set as I have no experience with them. Spend a few bucks, you'll have the set for a long time and it's good to have some that work well.

 

[MotoCARR]

I've had to run to the local hardware store to grab 2-3 in the past and I was impressed with Irwin. It didn't feel like it was going to break when using it by hand like others I've felt. Definitely has that heavy/solid feel.

 

[MotoCARR]

One of the things I have found with cheaper taps is they break a lot easier. A broken tap can make a pita job a night mare

Definitely have this in the back of my mind as of right now. Battling a stuck stud in a manifold right now and don't want to have to deal with having to dig a tap out too!

 

[doubleot]

I tried about 3 cheap tap and die sets before finally buying a snap on kit. I broke probably 4 taps from the cheap kits. To this day a few years later I haven't broken any of the snap on kit.

 

[BajaBound]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD4KW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Cope]

Ha! Exactly what I need it them for.

Mainly looking for a set to fix cross-threading and or clean up existing rusty threads.

Then get a set of thread chasers. These are made for Snap-on, MAtco, and others.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRQ5O0U/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[MotoCARR]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD4KW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Love it

 

[MotoCARR]

Then get a set of thread chasers. These are made for Snap-on, MAtco, and others.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRQ5O0U/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Added to Christmas list

 

[BajaBound]

Added to Christmas list

This is what SnapOn rebrands for their kit.

 

[928'er]

I just did a timing belt/water pump job on a friend's 928 at his house. He had one of those HF sets. I used the handle and a couple of dies to clean up some threads (didn't have a thread chaser available).

Nothing broke, but it all felt like junk... This is not a tool set to save money on. Buy something else.

 

[larry_g]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD4KW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

OP
The set linked above is a carbon steel set. Just be aware that it the softest of materials that taps are usually made from.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[K-Dog]

add these.

Tap sockets.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002SRFOE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

thank me later.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I use a general HF set for metric and SAE, and buy the stuff I use quite often from Irwin. I have yet to find a really high quality tap maker that has excellent metric coverage (basically all I use).

The HF taps work fine, if you follow these rules.

1) Cutting Oil - not wd40, atf, whatever, high quality cutting oil goes a LONG way. Makes drilling/tapping seem like a cake walk compared to using other liquids.

2) Lisle tap Sockets. The supplied holders are garbage (same for the dies), get adjustable tap handles or the tap sockets.

3) SLOW. Nice and easy.

4) Know you sizes, the markings on the taps are basically useless. Although all I really use regularly are m8x1.25 and m6x1.



The HF works fine for me; although the Irwin taps are much better, and the taps supplied with heli-coil kits better yet. Remember, if you're cleaningfixing threads only you actually just need a chaser set like the one posted above. Life saver, and very high quality.

Where is everyone getting metric taps?


EDIT: Shop around for the chaser kit. Tooltopia has the best price I found. Several brands sell the identical kit. Kastar, lang, craftsman, bluepoint, etc.

 

[thesilverone]

ace/irwin/hanson

 

[Dimitri]

OP
The set linked above is a carbon steel set. Just be aware that it the softest of materials that taps are usually made from.

Carbon steel is a generic term for nearly any tool steel. Steel becomes "hard" tool steel by having a above normal carbon content, but not high enough to become cast iron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel

> With a carbon content between 0.5% and 1.5%, tool steels are manufactured under carefully controlled conditions to produce the required quality. The presence of carbides in their matrix plays the dominant role in the qualities of tool steel.

Both terms, "tool steel" and "high carbon steel" are interchangeable. And honestly, niether term, used by both expensive and cheap brands, actually tell you anything of value, unless they list the specific alloy used.

Dimitri

 

[dr_clyde]

Carbon steel taps ****. They just do. I can't for the life of me figure out why guys spend their money on these sets and then complain when the taps break, or don't last before they are dull, or whatever. I wouldn't even attempt to use one on stainless. You're just asking for trouble.

Just go down to the local industrial supply and buy one each of high quality, HSS spiral point taps. I use Union Butterfield, but Greenfield, Cleveland, Morse, CTD, and many other US cutting tool makers have great lines of taps. They maybe cost 5 or 6 bucks each for the smaller ones, maybe $10 or $15 when you get into the bigger ones. You can get a nice Starrett tap wrench for less than $50 on McMaster Carr and you have a set.

Use cutting oil. CUTTING OIL, not motor oil, atf or whatever automotive fluid you have. A can of Rapid Tap, Tap Magic, Molly Dee, or just plain old Rigid Pipe threading oil will work.

 

[RedneckWelder]

I refuse to use HF or other chinesium tap and die sets.

Irwin is the absolute cheapest taps I will use, but I vastly prefer US made HSS taps. You can find a variety of makers. Ebay is a great source for cheap taps and dies singly. I pay an average of $2-3 for my taps, even larger size.

 

[dr_clyde]

Carbon steel is a generic term for nearly any tool steel. Steel becomes "hard" tool steel by having a above normal carbon content, but not high enough to become cast iron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel

> With a carbon content between 0.5% and 1.5%, tool steels are manufactured under carefully controlled conditions to produce the required quality. The presence of carbides in their matrix plays the dominant role in the qualities of tool steel.

Both terms, "tool steel" and "high carbon steel" are interchangeable. And honestly, niether term, used by both expensive and cheap brands, actually tell you anything of value, unless they list the specific alloy used.

Dimitri

This isn't true. High carbon steel is not neccessarily tool steel. High Speed Steel is a very specific kind of steel used for cutting tools. It uses not only carbon, but molybdenum and cobalt to get the appropriate properties for cutting tools. There are tool steels designed for impact resistance, for say a forging die, that would make a terrible twist drill or tap.

It is true that cheap and ****** tap makers use the "high carbon steel" thing to sell taps, but its because they can't say HSS, because it is very different than just plan old "high carbon".

 

[T45]

For $100 bucks you can get a decent set of professional grade metric/taps with drills. (morse/viking/champion etc--just find one on sale).

Then get thread chasers for your dies (by kastar/lang or similar).

This is buy once cry once stuff.

If you need more specialized gear over time, just buy it ad hoc.

One single m6 or m8 timesert kit for thread repair is gonna be $70-80 bucks.

Not to mention replacing ruined parts and your time....

You will cry once regardless if you keep at the game long enough,

just pick the time and the place...

 

[jdlong]

You're attempting to cut butter with butter with a cheap set. For cutting new threads, definately buy only the individual quality taps and dies you need over a cheap set.

For restoring old threads, a thread chasing (restore) kit. Be sure to use cutting oil with it as well. Otherwise, you're taking away even more metal with a tap or die.

 

[Dimitri]

It is true that cheap and ****** tap makers use the "high carbon steel" thing to sell taps, but its because they can't say HSS, because it is very different than just plan old "high carbon".

If you go back and read the Machinist Handbook, earlier editions, or read any tool and die textbook, you'd understand that. Such as the Fundamentals of Tool Design, which is in my bookshelf to the left of me.

Carbon steels were the original tool steels. Because of their low cost, abration and shock resisting qualities and ease of machinability and ability to take a keen cutting edge

The changes between the catagories, from W, O, A, D, S, H, T, M, L and P, are the various different other elements added from the base W class to make them what they are. But they all stem as the original high carbon steel (W class) that has been "improved" by using other elements to control how the carbon and iron form it's crystal structure during the heat treatment process to form the various different properties of the different catagories.

The same way, stating a tool is made of HSS is really meaningless.

Is it a Tungstun based HSS alloy (T Class) or is it a Molybdenum based alloy (M Class)? And does it include Cobalt or not? And is it a powdered alloy, or a conventional alloy in it's catagory?

A M2 (standard HSS most generics use when they don't specify what type), is as different to cheap Chinese high carbon steel tool bits (typically O1) as M42 Powdered Metal tools are to it.

Let alone the "HSS" steels like Carpenter's HS76, which is in a league of it's own.

Dimitri

 

[6PTsocket]

I have a set of these ... They have saved me doing auto repairs by being able to fix the threads on exhaust manifolds and other things . I have not used them to cut new threads, but for the $$ , you cant go wrong if you don't abuse them.. I would buy another set if I use these up , but so far so good !!

SIKPUP

For cleaning up thread a cutting tap is not the tap of choice. They will remove any displaced thread and is the last thing you want to do. Rethreading or thread chasing or clean up taps are basically a very hard bolt with grooves or flutes they straighten thread and remove dirt and loose rust. The good news is rhat they are cheap. Most of what you wil see is made in USA by Lang, formerly Kastar. That includes the tool trucks and Sears. SnapOn.com ships free, no minimum. They sell them under the Bluepoint name. I got a 10 mm tap for a couple of bucks and change. Otherwise buy a Lang set of taps or taps and dies for your rethreading.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[6PTsocket]

I would steer clear of the HF. the Irwin seem to be decent check pawn shops I have seen older craftsman and tool truck brands go fairly cheap.

The Irwins you saw are nost probably carbon, not High Speed Steel, though thay do make them for a very high price.The first time you break a tap all thoughts of saving money are out the window. I have used the Irwin taps and they are OK. Buying a a cutting tool, used, that you cannot resharpen concerns me. Most people asking this question, and it comes up a lot, are advised to buy good HSS taps individually as you need them. You won't use most of what is in the set and the tap and die holders in those Chinese sets are garbage

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[6PTsocket]

Taps & dies we must have that question come up a lot on the GJ but the GJ search section *****...

I find that cheap and good never mix very well kind of like oil and water. Best to buy only what you need like someone else said you will never use the whole set.

Interesting talk I had with another GJ member and my question was how long do you use a tap before it becomes a throw away item and the answer I got was three times use before you toss it away; (but most people do not do that).

Very interesting topic in that I was at a garage sale and I bought a box of used taps enough to last me a lifetime of use but only in sae not metric.

I would think op if you were not going to use them very much and you were not going to work on something like full time engine re-building then the HF set would fit your needs.

I disagree on two points. There is no predicting the life of any cutting tool. It depends on the material being tapped, the quality of the tap, and the lubricants being usd or not used. When it stops tapping cleanly or offers too much resistance it is shot. As for the cheap HF, Chinese taps, if you are just cleaning thread or tapping plastic or aluminum you might never notice the poor quality. You don't have to be a pro to not want to break a tap in some blind hole in steel. If you have ever done it you would not advise anybody to go cheap on taps.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[pstemari]

Friends don't let friends buy cheap Chinese taps.

I have seen imported HSS taps that were OK, but the first time you use a R&N or Union Butterfield tap it will be a revelation.

WRT "hard bolt" above for fixing threads, what you want there is a thread-forming tap, which is designed to make threads by cold-working the metal instead of cutting it.

You can often pick up U-B taps from Amazon at large discounts, or go to kbctools.com for R&N taps.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[dr_clyde]

If you go back and read the Machinist Handbook, earlier editions, or read any tool and die textbook, you'd understand that. Such as the Fundamentals of Tool Design, which is in my bookshelf to the left of me.



The changes between the catagories, from W, O, A, D, S, H, T, M, L and P, are the various different other elements added from the base W class to make them what they are. But they all stem as the original high carbon steel (W class) that has been "improved" by using other elements to control how the carbon and iron form it's crystal structure during the heat treatment process to form the various different properties of the different catagories.

The same way, stating a tool is made of HSS is really meaningless.

Is it a Tungstun based HSS alloy (T Class) or is it a Molybdenum based alloy (M Class)? And does it include Cobalt or not? And is it a powdered alloy, or a conventional alloy in it's catagory?

A M2 (standard HSS most generics use when they don't specify what type), is as different to cheap Chinese high carbon steel tool bits (typically O1) as M42 Powdered Metal tools are to it.

Let alone the "HSS" steels like Carpenter's HS76, which is in a league of it's own.

Dimitri

My point was there is a difference between a HSS tap and a carbon steel tap. They are not the same thing. While carbon steel may be used as a tool steel, it is fundamentally different than HSS, by the extra alloying elements.

For clarity, the only part of your response I took issue with was the part where you implied that all high carbon steels were tool steels. While not necessarily false, it implies that HSS and carbon steel taps were the same, and only being called different names. Someone who isn't educated in metallurgy doesn't know better, and could be misled.

 

[tarbellb]

After you buy the tap/die consider the GearWrench ratcheting setup. SO NICE.

Part #s 4pc kit - 82806 large

Part # 5pc kit - 3880 small

 

[kblee27]

I broke one of the cheap tap. It became soft.
I'd replace it with Irwin, much better quality.

 

[sk farmer]

i get a kick out of everyone who says buy a couple taps in the size you need.

ok, what size is that?

you most often don't know until it is too late. that is like going out and buying a 1/2 and 9/16 wrench because they are pretty darn common. doesn't do you damn bit of good when you need a 10mm, 12mm, or 5/8. if you think you need tap and dies, get a smaller sets of sae and metric or a combo set and then you at least have a decent chance of having what you need.

 

[Dimitri]

For clarity, the only part of your response I took issue with was the part where you implied that all high carbon steels were tool steels. .

And you are still wrong.

You are basically arguing that assault rifles are not rifles because they are by definition capable of fully automatic fire. And because of this different feature, they are nothing like Joe's "hunting" rifle.

Does this analogy help you understand?

Dimitri

 

[nbpt100]

I disagree on two points. There is no predicting the life of any cutting tool. It depends on the material being tapped, the quality of the tap, and the lubricants being usd or not used. When it stops tapping cleanly or offers too much resistance it is shot. As for the cheap HF, Chinese taps, if you are just cleaning thread or tapping plastic or aluminum you might never notice the poor quality. You don't have to be a pro to not want to break a tap in some blind hole in steel. If you have ever done it you would not advise anybody to go cheap on taps.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I agree completely on every point you make. A broken tap can quickly make a part junk. Unless you want to use the EDM process to burn it out...... And good luck with that.

I broke my share of taps when learning how to machine many years ago.

I bought a Hanson tap and die set for home back in the 80's and it has never let me down. I hear they are made in China now. So I can't speak to the current quality. I still have all of the original taps and dies except for the 1/4-20 and 3/8 -24 which have been replaced from excessive wear. I use it less and less as time goes on as more and more stuff is metric.

I have no problem replacing a stripped M5 with a 1/4-20 if space allows. I have even replaced an M6 with a 1/4 -20 but you do give up some thread engagement. Use your judgement on that one.

I understand the theory in using a thread chaser which forms a thread vs. a tap which cuts a thread. I once used a chaser in a blind hole on a VW alum. ****** and it made it worse. I don't know why? I have since always use taps to clean internal threads and I have never had any issues.

Keep in mind If a thread is very damaged you need to drill and tap larger or helicoil it.

I once made the mistake of using Tap Free on aluminum and it started to smoke and turn black. That was in the 80's. All the tapping fluids I see now say approved for both steel and alum. Is Aluma Tap still around?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

i get a kick out of everyone who says buy a couple taps in the size you need.

ok, what size is that?

you most often don't know until it is too late. that is like going out and buying a 1/2 and 9/16 wrench because they are pretty darn common. doesn't do you damn bit of good when you need a 10mm, 12mm, or 5/8. if you think you need tap and dies, get a smaller sets of sae and metric or a combo set and then you at least have a decent chance of having what you need.

Basic common sizes. M6x1 m8x1.25 m10x1.50. All easily available pitches. Add M10x1.25 and you have most threads on most cars that would need tapped.

That, and a few heli-coil kits (which supply taps) have you covered for almost anything on modern cars. Although for lots of applications (especially exhaust) tapping is pointless. Run a nut/bolt and be done. M10 hole? M8 nut, bolt, washers, installed.


FWIW: I use metric exclusively, so I would never tap anything to SAE pitch, thus they're not really needed. Anything bigger than M12 or 1/2 is above what most will ever consider tapping. So get 3-5 common sizes, buy some extra hardware of said size, done.