Home Electrical help...

[MagicMarker]

I'll start with saying I've already got an electrician coming, but he can't get me in for a few days.

Short story: Dead circuit w/ no known or seen tripped breakers and overvoltage on a different circuit. I'm no electrician.

Scenario:
While vacuuming, the outlet all of a sudden "popped" and the outlet died. Then my kitchen lights (what I believe is on a separate circuit) went super bright as well as two random outlets in my formal living room.

The outlet that popped along with other random outlets and lighting on the first floor is totally dead. No tripped breakers and I even manually tripped the breakers that I believe belong to them.

I just ran around the house and started testing with my multi meter. For the most part, all of the outlets are reading 122volts. Two of them are reading 247volts Without pulling the bulbs and testing the kitchen recessed lighting, I'm surmising that the are also getting way too many volts.

In my dining room, the switch and chandelier are reading 120v. I have LEDs in them (this is a new fixture and has been working fine for over a week). Now all the LEDs are dead. I put a new LED bulb that I knew worked and installed it... Flipped the switch and it just popped. Now that known working bulb is dead. What gives here?

I'd love to have some help on this.. maybe something I can do while I'm waiting? Do I call the power company? What do I tell them so they take me seriously? Note, I don't feel terribly comfortable pulling off the breaker panel to test wiring.

Just don't understand how all of this just happens out of no where.

 

[bczygan]

Halloween?

 

[Muzzy]

sounds like you could have a bad neutral, and you're getting both legs across some of your fixtures.
I would start at the panel making sure all the neutral and grounds are good. Definitely kill circuits on any outlets that are showing 240! and see if they still have voltage, may be a clue.
There was a thread on here a while ago about a member in Alaska that lost his incoming feed neutral and had to rework his whole house.

 

[kd3pc]

It sounds like you have lost a phase, or a phase has shorted to neutral in the panel.

BE VERY careful in touching things.

I would suggest calling another electrician or your power company and explain what has happened. You need someone sooner than later.

 

[Muzzy]

It sounds like you have lost a phase, or a phase has shorted to neutral in the panel.

BE VERY careful in touching things.

I would suggest calling another electrician or your power company and explain what has happened. You need someone sooner than later.

Agreed. That is better advice than I provided.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I'll start with saying I've already got an electrician coming, but he can't get me in for a few days.

Short story: Dead circuit w/ no known or seen tripped breakers and overvoltage on a different circuit. I'm no electrician.

Scenario:
While vacuuming, the outlet all of a sudden "popped" and the outlet died. Then my kitchen lights (what I believe is on a separate circuit) went super bright as well as two random outlets in my formal living room.

The outlet that popped along with other random outlets and lighting on the first floor is totally dead. No tripped breakers and I even manually tripped the breakers that I believe belong to them.

I just ran around the house and started testing with my multi meter. For the most part, all of the outlets are reading 122volts. Two of them are reading 247volts Without pulling the bulbs and testing the kitchen recessed lighting, I'm surmising that the are also getting way too many volts.

In my dining room, the switch and chandelier are reading 120v. I have LEDs in them (this is a new fixture and has been working fine for over a week). Now all the LEDs are dead. I put a new LED bulb that I knew worked and installed it... Flipped the switch and it just popped. Now that known working bulb is dead. What gives here?

I'd love to have some help on this.. maybe something I can do while I'm waiting? Do I call the power company? What do I tell them so they take me seriously? Note, I don't feel terribly comfortable pulling off the breaker panel to test wiring.

Just don't understand how all of this just happens out of no where.

Open neutral?

 

[MikeF2316]

I concur that it's a neutral problem. I'd turn off the bright lights, unplug everything from the low or high voltage circuits. See if you can find the breaker, then turn it (them) off. Look at the neutrals. I'd start at the breaker panel, but you can get into a real world of hurt if you don't know what you're looking at. Then I'd check the wiring at the outlets, switches and light fixtures, in that order.

 

[MagicMarker]

It sounds like you have lost a phase, or a phase has shorted to neutral in the panel.

BE VERY careful in touching things.

I would suggest calling another electrician or your power company and explain what has happened. You need someone sooner than later.

My thought process was to use the same electrician who did my new breaker panel. The old existing one was full and I wanted a larger panel. I'm thinking since he wired it all up, he should be able to figure this out fairly quickly....

I'm thinking I will call the power company to see what they say in the morning.

 

[DC73]

I'm thinking I will call the power company to see what they say in the morning.

Call the power company tonight if they have an emergency contact number. It's possible something on their system has failed and is sending too much voltage to your house. Breakers trip on current and if you have excess voltage, the current is less and they won't trip. But, they might burn. That much over voltage can fail some equipment catastrophically and can cause a fire.

DC

 

[N_Jay]

. . . . .Short story: Dead circuit w/ no known or seen tripped breakers and overvoltage on a different circuit. I'm no electrician.
. . . .

Low V on one circuit and high V on another is the sign of a open neutral.

Probably one of the most dangerous situations you can have with house wiring.

Get it checked out ASAP.

 

[Radix2]

With a open neutral from the poco, you will not have most circuits good and only a couple of bad ones, all on one side will be high and the rest low. Sounds like a failure in your panel or a feed to a subpanel or to a branch circuit.

Get an electrician out there ASAP.

 

[MagicMarker]

With a open neutral from the poco, you will not have most circuits good and only a couple of bad ones, all on one side will be high and the rest low. Sounds like a failure in your panel or a feed to a subpanel or to a branch circuit.

Get an electrician out there ASAP.

Ugh.. this sounds like a major major issue. If the electrician who did the panel made a mistake, do I even have someone else look at it vs. making them fix it?

I had him install a larger main (more breakers) and a generator subpanel. How would a wiring issue all of a sudden happen over a month later?

All of these issues come after an outlet popped while vacuuming.

 

[Milton Shaw]

no body else has mentioned this but shut off all 2 pole (240 volt) breakers you may have a stove/ac etc. shorted and feeding voltage back through the system through a bad ground/neutral connection in the device. But get an electrician out there as soon as you can. Call the power company and get them to look at incoming power..

 

[Alchymist]

It sounds like you have lost a phase, or a phase has shorted to neutral in the panel.

BE VERY careful in touching things.

I would suggest calling another electrician or your power company and explain what has happened. You need someone sooner than later.

A phase shorting to neutral in the panel will trip a breaker, unless it's in the panel rails itself, whereby it will trip the main. As others have said, most likely a problem with the neutral.

Ugh.. this sounds like a major major issue. If the electrician who did the panel made a mistake, do I even have someone else look at it vs. making them fix it?

I had him install a larger main (more breakers) and a generator subpanel. How would a wiring issue all of a sudden happen over a month later?

All of these issues come after an outlet popped while vacuuming.

I'd guess there is a neutral wire somewhere that didn't get tightened correctly and took a month to burn off. I've seen wires inserted into the neutral bar and under a breaker terminal that the electrician forgot to tighten fully, and they will arc and burn. It takes some time before it becomes a problem, so your 1 month since install strongly suggests this might be the problem.

 

[MagicMarker]

Low V on one circuit and high V on another is the sign of a open neutral.

Probably one of the most dangerous situations you can have with house wiring.

Get it checked out ASAP.

Ok. Now I'm freaking out in my head.

 

[volleyball]

Sounds like two circuits have fused together. Just turn off the breaker you think and then see if you have normal voltage. Try to figure out the other circuit by flipping breakers.
With those two off, you should be ok. It may be breakers in the backup switch panel.
On the circuit with 247, check the neutral to ground voltage.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'll start with saying I've already got an electrician coming, but he can't get me in for a few days.

Short story: Dead circuit w/ no known or seen tripped breakers and overvoltage on a different circuit. I'm no electrician.

Scenario:
While vacuuming, the outlet all of a sudden "popped" and the outlet died. Then my kitchen lights (what I believe is on a separate circuit) went super bright as well as two random outlets in my formal living room.

The outlet that popped along with other random outlets and lighting on the first floor is totally dead. No tripped breakers and I even manually tripped the breakers that I believe belong to them.

I just ran around the house and started testing with my multi meter. For the most part, all of the outlets are reading 122volts. Two of them are reading 247volts Without pulling the bulbs and testing the kitchen recessed lighting, I'm surmising that the are also getting way too many volts.

In my dining room, the switch and chandelier are reading 120v. I have LEDs in them (this is a new fixture and has been working fine for over a week). Now all the LEDs are dead. I put a new LED bulb that I knew worked and installed it... Flipped the switch and it just popped. Now that known working bulb is dead. What gives here?

I'd love to have some help on this.. maybe something I can do while I'm waiting? Do I call the power company? What do I tell them so they take me seriously? Note, I don't feel terribly comfortable pulling off the breaker panel to test wiring.

Just don't understand how all of this just happens out of no where.

This is a Classic case of an open neutral.

This CAN burn your house down.

It is a VERY SERIOUS issue.

Unplug anything that is on the circuit which sees above 120v IMMEDIATELY!

Get an electrician in there ASAP. Even if u have to pay an after hours fee! The cost for that is cheaper than the loss potential!

The guy that wired this may have screwed up.

It sounds like you have lost a phase, or a phase has shorted to neutral in the panel.

BE VERY careful in touching things.

I would suggest calling another electrician or your power company and explain what has happened. You need someone sooner than later.

Loosing a phase wouldnt cause 240v on some legs.

And a phase shorting to neutral would cause breakers to trip. And if the breaker didnt trip there would be massive sparks as the full current available from the transformer comes into play.

Call the power company tonight if they have an emergency contact number. It's possible something on their system has failed and is sending too much voltage to your house. Breakers trip on current and if you have excess voltage, the current is less and they won't trip. But, they might burn. That much over voltage can fail some equipment catastrophically and can cause a fire.

DC

If this was an issue with the PoCos neutral then ALL circuits would be low or high voltage depending on the resistance of each item plugged in on each leg.

This is more a branch circuit neutral issue or a subpanel feeder neutral issue.

Ugh.. this sounds like a major major issue. If the electrician who did the panel made a mistake, do I even have someone else look at it vs. making them fix it?

I had him install a larger main (more breakers) and a generator subpanel. How would a wiring issue all of a sudden happen over a month later?

All of these issues come after an outlet popped while vacuuming.

If he did something weong he should either fix it or compensate u for it. Seeing as this is an emergency, if he cant get there stat, then u may have to pay another electrician to fix it then take it up with his liability insurance.

Its possible that the outlet u were using is part of whats a called an MWBC(multiwire branch circuit) which is 2 opposite phases sharing a neutral. When the neutral looses its connection somewhere along the MWBC one side of the circuit can see higher than 120v and the other side can see lower than 120v depending on whats plugged in or connected on each leg.

I would start with the outlet u were using.

If it turns out to be a bad neutral on a MWBC, then the wiring isnt up to code which requires neutrals on MWBC to be pigtailed, because of this exact scenarioz

no body else has mentioned this but shut off all 2 pole (240 volt) breakers you may have a stove/ac etc. shorted and feeding voltage back through the system through a bad ground/neutral connection in the device. But get an electrician out there as soon as you can. Call the power company and get them to look at incoming power..

It doesnt work like that.

If voltage was being sent over a ground wire then breakers would trip.

And if the ground or neutral were bad then there would be no connection.

And a dedicated stove circuit isnt gonna feed power onto a 120v branch circuit.

Sounds like two circuits have fused together. Just turn off the breaker you think and then see if you have normal voltage. Try to figure out the other circuit by flipping breakers.
With those two off, you should be ok. It may be breakers in the backup switch panel.
On the circuit with 247, check the neutral to ground voltage.

There is no physical way 2 circuits could fuse together. That is called a short and breakers would trip if that happened.

 

[tyme2par4]

See Post #28: http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342863&page=2

He explained exactly how such a thing could happen. It sounds like it was a multiwire branch circuit. When you were vacuuming, something shorted due to the high current draw of the vacuum.
You have a bad situation on your hands. As others have said, turn off all affected breakers and get a pro in there ASAP.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

See Post #28: http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342863&page=2

He explained exactly how such a thing could happen. It sounds like it was a multiwire branch circuit. When you were vacuuming, something shorted due to the high current draw of the vacuum.
You have a bad situation on your hands. As others have said, turn off all affected breakers and get a pro in there ASAP.

Yes that was a great explanation.

However, nothing shorted as a breaker would have tripped. Instead, a weak neutral connection failed causing it to become OPEN and thus allowing potential for 240v to be available to 120v circuits!

 

[MagicMarker]

See Post #28: http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342863&page=2

He explained exactly how such a thing could happen. It sounds like it was a multiwire branch circuit. When you were vacuuming, something shorted due to the high current draw of the vacuum.
You have a bad situation on your hands. As others have said, turn off all affected breakers and get a pro in there ASAP.

Is this an issue at the panel or at an outlet?

The electrician is coming first thing in the AM.

Also, why are my LED bulbs in my dining room fixture "popping" and burnt out the second I turn the wall switch on? From what I can tell the switch is throwing 120v.

 

[tyme2par4]

Yes that was a great explanation.

However, nothing shorted as a breaker would have tripped. Instead, a weak neutral connection failed causing it to become OPEN and thus allowing potential for 240v to be available to 120v circuits!

oops, that's what I meant to say.

Is this an issue at the panel or at an outlet?

The electrician is coming first thing in the AM.

Also, why are my LED bulbs in my dining room fixture "popping" and burnt out the second I turn the wall switch on? From what I can tell the switch is throwing 120v.

Could be either one, but I'd guess at an outlet.
If they're popping, they're probably getting 240V. Depending on how it's wired, the switch could still show 120V, but the neutral in the lights is hot instead, providing the other 120V.

 

[justsam]

Call the power company tonight if they have an emergency contact number. It's possible something on their system has failed and is sending too much voltage to your house. Breakers trip on current and if you have excess voltage, the current is less and they won't trip. But, they might burn. That much over voltage can fail some equipment catastrophically and can cause a fire.

DC

You really can't change Ohm's Law here. If the load is fixed, (R) and the voltage is doubled, than the current will be doubled. This assumes the load is linear and does not just go open as a light bulb would if it were a 120 VAC bulb that found itself on 240VAC.

Perhaps you are thinking of the POWER formula (PIE), that for a given Power you can use twice the voltage and half the current.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is this an issue at the panel or at an outlet?

The electrician is coming first thing in the AM.

Also, why are my LED bulbs in my dining room fixture "popping" and burnt out the second I turn the wall switch on? From what I can tell the switch is throwing 120v.

No way to tell until u tear into things.

Its an open neutral that could be at the panel outlet or anywhere in between.

The LEDs are popping because when they get turned on they are getting higher voltage due to a change in resistance on the circuit.

Make sure u unplug anything that is seeing higher than 120v

 

[DC73]

Perhaps you are thinking of the POWER formula (PIE), that for a given Power you can use twice the voltage and half the current.

Yep. My fingers were faster than my brain last night. I was mainly trying to convey to the OP the seriousness of the situation. The first rule of electricity is "Don't let the smoke out".

DC

 

[brewchief]

I'm betting a bad neutral at an outlet that was back stabbed. If the one the vacuum was plugged into "popped" then I would start with it.

 

[MagicMarker]

Ok.. house has been resolved.. thanks for all of your replies... If you didn't chime in, I wouldn't have pushed my electrician to come faster.

So we looked at the culprit outlet and it was just old and now fried. There was still power in the wires, but outlet didn't work.

Then down to the panel... he checked all the connections and power coming in to the house. All check out. But then he started poking around to double check everything was tight. Then came across one untightened wire. I'm thinking it was a neutral wire. It was inserted into that silver bar. It wasn't just a quarter turn to tighten... it was 4-5 turns.

Once he fully tightened that screw, everything magically worked! Especially those two outlets that were at 240v self corrected to 120v.

He did swap out the old offending outlet, double checked everything again and went on his way.

So here is my last question for you guys.

IMO, I shouldn't have to pay for this service call since they installed the new main panel. I have to replace a bunch of LED bulbs and my garage LED ballasts are fried too. So bulbs alone, I'm spending another $100+. The guy came for just over an hour. I'm hoping the owner doesn't bill me for this.

What do you guys think?

 

[Alchymist]

Ok.. house has been resolved.. thanks for all of your replies... If you didn't chime in, I wouldn't have pushed my electrician to come faster.

So we looked at the culprit outlet and it was just old and now fried. There was still power in the wires, but outlet didn't work.

Then down to the panel... he checked all the connections and power coming in to the house. All check out. But then he started poking around to double check everything was tight. Then came across one untightened wire. I'm thinking it was a neutral wire. It was inserted into that silver bar. It wasn't just a quarter turn to tighten... it was 4-5 turns.

Once he fully tightened that screw, everything magically worked! Especially those two outlets that were at 240v self corrected to 120v.

He did swap out the old offending outlet, double checked everything again and went on his way.

So here is my last question for you guys.

IMO, I shouldn't have to pay for this service call since they installed the new main panel. I have to replace a bunch of LED bulbs and my garage LED ballasts are fried too. So bulbs alone, I'm spending another $100+. The guy came for just over an hour. I'm hoping the owner doesn't bill me for this.

What do you guys think?

I think I nailed it in post 14.

Not only should you not get billed, but the electrician should pick up at least some of the replacement parts cost. JMHO.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So the company that did the repair was the same one who did the original work?

Not only should u NOT be charged a service call but they should be paying for ALL damaged equipment bulbs appliances etc.

Theyre lucky thats ALL they have to pay for. It couldve been way worse! Your whole house couldve burned down....

 

[Wirepuller]

I would talk to the first electrician that installed the new panel board. I figure he at least owes you the second electricians service call rate and if I were in his shoes I would pay it and then some to cover the damaged lamps. My service call rate is 240 first 2 hours minimum and 90/HR after that for 1 man and a truck. Depending on what's involved sometimes I won't charge anything if it's a quick fix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mm08822]

If he got 4-5 turns out of that neutral that was part a 3 wire cable (MWBC), then there is the source of the problem as Alchemist mentioned. Nothing much left to say if they were just in there a month ago for a service upgrade. It is easy to miss one screw during a service changeout, but it’s their responsibility to do it right and that’s called checking your work before you fire it up. Nobody double-checked before going home for the day.

Although small loads seemed to work ok for the last month, a vacuum can draw as much as 12 amps and that probably got the loosely touching surfaces between copper wire and neutral bar all pitted from arcing and they eventually lost connection. That’s when you got 240V! You may even be able to see that on the neutral bar still. The neutral may have also gotten hot enough to brown up the insulation on the neutral. Take a look/picture if your knowledgeable enough to remove the panel cover safely. The burnt receptacle was just a symptom.

I would work up a bill for them for your replacement parts and send it to them – be fair/truthful. Send the pic also. If they give you any b/s tell them you have the tel # for NJ Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors. It’s not worth their time to deal with Newark for a few $ for a customer complaint.

 

[Muzzy]

I would talk to the owner and lay it all out fairly.
If the company and owner are solid they'll own their mistakes and make it right.

I certainly wouldn't write a check for the service call, even with the best intentions it was sloppy work that could have done some serious damage. If they insist on billing the service, make them work to get it.

 

[MagicMarker]

So the company that did the repair was the same one who did the original work?

Not only should u NOT be charged a service call but they should be paying for ALL damaged equipment bulbs appliances etc.

Theyre lucky thats ALL they have to pay for. It couldve been way worse! Your whole house couldve burned down....

Yes... same company who did the new panel came to investigate. They sent a different person who did the original work. I'll make a list of actual and reasonable bulb replacement costs.

The funny thing is that we pulled permits for the main panel replacement... is that any kind of leverage I can use if need be?

I would talk to the first electrician that installed the new panel board. I figure he at least owes you the second electricians service call rate and if I were in his shoes I would pay it and then some to cover the damaged lamps. My service call rate is 240 first 2 hours minimum and 90/HR after that for 1 man and a truck. Depending on what's involved sometimes I won't charge anything if it's a quick fix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Original company who did my new panel came out to investigate. His rate is $135 for the first hour and $80/hr after that.

I would talk to the owner and lay it all out fairly.
If the company and owner are solid they'll own their mistakes and make it right.

I certainly wouldn't write a check for the service call, even with the best intentions it was sloppy work that could have done some serious damage. If they insist on billing the service, make them work to get it.

I feel good that the company is solid. I've decided to let them make the first move on billing. I'm guessing that the tech who came out will report back his findings.

I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks again for all your advice.

 

[rburke65]

If the same company that installed it did the resent fix......I wouldn't pay them a thing and I'd be billing hm for the damages.

 

[Mustang51js]

What does doing the service have anything to do with the outlets in the rest of the house. Unless they replaced the outlets also its not on the electrician and you should pay for it. Thats like someone replacing a lightbulb in your basement and then the gfi in your garage goes bad a few days later and you blame the guy who replaced the bulb.

 

[Mustang51js]

I find it hard to believe that some people think if you replace a panel in your house,they are supposed to go around to every outlet and switch and check for a loose connection.

 

[Mustang51js]

I missed the part about loose wire in panel,so i retract my comments

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I missed the part about loose wire in panel,so i retract my comments

Yeah if it was just an outlet then i wouldnt bother but the MAJOR issue was the loose neutral in the new panel. Couldve burnt his house down.

 

[MagicMarker]

So the electrician was quick to send out the invoice... will need to call him on Monday to explain why I'm not paying for the fix and how he really owes me bulbs.

I guess the tech who came out didn't explain to him what the actual fix was.

Any advice/ wording how I should expect payment on bulbs?

 

[brewchief]

So the electrician was quick to send out the invoice... will need to call him on Monday to explain why I'm not paying for the fix and how he really owes me bulbs.

I guess the tech who came out didn't explain to him what the actual fix was.

Any advice/ wording how I should expect payment on bulbs?

Be polite but firm, email is better if possible because you can choose your words carefully AND you have a written record so no he said she said.

Don't threaten legal action, if it comes to that a registered letter in the mail from a lawyer is going to be far more effective then someone yelling "I'm gonna sue you" on the phone.

Explain what bulbs were damaged and ask how they want to make it right.


If they are a solid company they will take care of things.

 

[mm08822]

Do what post 30 said. Its all done after that.