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Insulation. How much is enough?

redsky49

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Several posters have inquired as to the amount of insulation they should install. Many of the responses to this issue have been typically been 'If some is good, more must be better'. Well, not necessarily so.

As a starting point, the code mandated minimums have been established following research by professional organizations to achieve a balance between performance and cost. You will be well served to at least meet these minimum code requirements. But does it make sense to exceed these minimums, and by how much? Well, lets take a look at an example of heating requirements.

Assume a 10' x 10' wall section, in this case sheathed with1/2" x 8" lapped siding (this is similar to a garage recently posted on this site). Environmental conditions for this exercise are 70 degrees inside, 30 degrees outside. Okay, here we go.

Existing wall, no insulation, R = 0.81: 4920 btuh

Now lets add R-13 Fiberglass insulation to the existing wall.
Existing Wall + R-13 insul. (total R-13.8): 280 btuh

Wow, what a decrease in heat loss! Almost a 95% reduction. So more must be even better, right? Let's see.

To go to more fiberglass matt we will have to go to a deeper wall cavity. Now we are framing with 2x6 instead of 2x4. But let's put that additional cost aside for the moment.

Existing Wall + R-19 insul. (total R-19.8): 200 btuh

We have another winner! Down to only 200 btuh. However, this is only a 4% further decrease in heat loss, with almost a doubling of the insulating material (3.5" vs. 5.5-6.5"), and about a 60% (prices vary widely) increase in insulation costs. Plus we still have to figure in the increased framing costs for the larger wall framing. In some cases you can increase the stud spacing, but even then, framing for any opening will be more costly and of course the floor and top plates will have to be the larger 2x6 size.

Hmmm... Not so much benefit for the substantially higher cost. But is there a payback for the 80 btuh saved at this higher cost? 80 btuh is the equivalent to the heat output of a 23W incandescent bulb. So you can afford to run a couple Christmas tree bulbs! Not such a good deal.

So. Some insulation is way better than none, and too much insulation doesn't make much sense economically.

But we still want to save money and conserve energy. What to do? A good place to start would be the windows.

Assume that we would like to look out our imaginary wall. Let's install a 3'x4' window. How does that affect our heat load? We will start with a single pane of glass (for the moment we will disregard the window frame).

Our single pane, 12 sq. ft. of glass at the above design conditions: 499 btuh

Not so good, but we know that better glass is available, such as double glazed glass.

Dbl. pane, 1/4" air space: 264 btuh

Well, almost cut in half, but it's still almost as much heat loss as the entire
R-18.8 wall. But there are still better windows available.

Dbl. pane, Argon filled, high E glass 154 btuh

Still a high heat loss and we haven't even considered the frame yet, or the infiltration of outside air at all the seams and gaps.

There are other considerations as well in constructing an energy efficient facility, but the above should lend some light on insulation. I also would reference you to an earlier post concerning some outrageous claims regarding insulation:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39298

The point is that some thought should be given to all aspects of the structure, not just the insulation. There are ways to conserve but look before you leap.

Disclaimer: The above data is simplified for discussions sake, but does not skew the comparative results. Performance data will vary at differing temperature conditions and between different manufacturers. YMMV.

As always, offered only as opinion
 
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walrus

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These values are being looked at with todays energy costs, so perhaps the length of time you plan on owning the building should be looked at. I doubt energy costs stay the same.
Another thing to look at is comfort, in my cold climate I've lived in houses that were sieves, some that were reasonably insulated and now I live in a house that is well insulated. While increasing insulations costs, I can wear shorts and tee shirt anywhere in my house when its below zero out side and not feel drafts. Whats the cost of comfort?

One other thing, Fiberglass is junk when air moves thru it so tightness of building is indeed a huge factor
 

hidollartoys

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Red check your calcs ..... 280 btuh vs 200 btuh = a 30% reduction in heat loss. not 4% not sure how 280 - 200 = 40 either. And not sure you can compare the 80 btuh decrease to the uninsulated wall since you have probably already decided to insulate. The real comparision would be the 2x4 wall vs the 2x6 wall. Just my opinion.
 

Dragster Racer

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Red check your calcs ..... 280 btuh vs 200 btuh = a 30% reduction in heat loss. not 4% not sure how 280 - 200 = 40 either. And not sure you can compare the 80 btuh decrease to the uninsulated wall since you have probably already decided to insulate. The real comparision would be the 2x4 wall vs the 2x6 wall. Just my opinion.

I guess I didn't see how that math worked either. Explain?
Also, drafts are often a different deal than insulation. You can sometimes seal a draft with a little caulk with almost no insulative value. Air infiltration is not the same as heat migration.
 
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redsky49

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Red check your calcs ..... 280 btuh vs 200 btuh = a 30% reduction in heat loss. not 4% not sure how 280 - 200 = 40 either. And not sure you can compare the 80 btuh decrease to the uninsulated wall since you have probably already decided to insulate. The real comparision would be the 2x4 wall vs the 2x6 wall. Just my opinion.

The 4% additional reduction (beyond the R-13 insulation) is from the original uninsulated wall. The math is correct. The additional insulation just does not prove cost effective.
 
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redsky49

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I guess I didn't see how that math worked either. Explain?
Also, drafts are often a different deal than insulation. You can sometimes seal a draft with a little caulk with almost no insulative value. Air infiltration is not the same as heat migration.

Indeed, infiltration is a separate issue, one that I did not address.

Glad to see this post has prompted some discussion:)
 
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redsky49

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To clarify:
Original uninsulated wall = 4920 btuh heat loss

With R-13 insul. = 280 btuh heat loss, or a 94.3% reduction in heat loss compared to uninsulated

With R-19 insul. = 200 btuh heat loss, or a 96.1% reduction in heat loss compared to uninsulated.

Hope this is more clear.
 

Dragster Racer

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OK. But (Devil's Advocate), if you went from 13 to 19, you would lower your btuh heat loss by 80, or a 30% reduction.
But I do see what you are saying. 1/2 of hardly anything is......
Good point you have. What I have seen is that proper use of wraps and good building methods can really reduce infiltration. You really can't mask leaks with more Rvalue.
Also, many new home builders are running into the problem of the envelope being too tight, and air quailty suffering. And excessive moisture in the winter, even without adding moisture with a humidifier.
We are really stuggling with some of these issues as we build our new home. Pretty standard now seems to be 19 in the walls and 38 or better in the ceiling. Not saying it is the right thing to do, just seems to be standard now.
 

walrus

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The additional insulation just does not prove cost effective.

I don't understand this comment . Assuming everything else is equal, a R13 wall will save a person money as the R19 wall costs more and you'll never save that in heat costs?
 

Flathead Youngin'

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i like this discussion, i'm faced with making some choices in a few years when we build a home...

i want it to be highly efficient.....but i also don't want mold, bad air, etc....

keep arguing, er, i mean, debating!:bowdown:
 

nate379

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I'm sure it depends on where you live as well. If you live in a place that stays mild year round, you can do with less.

Here R-21 walls and R45 ceiling is what most new houses have. Further north and 2x8 walls are more common and even double 2x6 or 2x8 walls.

Building codes here require x amount of fresh air per hour and it's determined via a blower test/aka leak test. My house uses a bathroom's exhaust fan hooked to a humidstat for moisture control, though HRV systems can also be used.
 
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ripsnortMN

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Don't you loose most of your heat through your ceiling anyway? Thats why I insulated to R49 in my ceiling. I put R13 in the walls. Where I live is colder than most of the country too.
 

JTG

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I don't understand this comment . Assuming everything else is equal, a R13 wall will save a person money as the R19 wall costs more and you'll never save that in heat costs?

I think what he's trying to say is the approximate 60% increase in cost from R13 to R19 is not worth the 80 btuh increase. Calculate how much more money you will spend going from R13 to R19. Then using your average energy cost how long will it take you to break even on the 80 btuh? My guess is its a long, long time.

Now I agree this is a straight dollars to btuh calculation. It does not take into consideration the comfort factor. And the older I get the more that factors in to my decisions!
 

djd99

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Awesome topic we can all learn from these debates, I want to put more insulation in my ceiling, right now I have r13 running between my rafters, how much blown in insulation would you use, I need enough for 30x18 for my first story? Or would you guys go a different route? is 13" high the norm?
 

moonpool145

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My .02 cents. I think the biggest issue is type of construction. I just dont believe any longer in stick framing and many of its inherent drawbacks. As a younger guy I framed a great many homes and saw how things get done (many times but certainly not always). Guys forgeting to insulate under sill plates, poor tyvek jobs, lots of holes through the rims and top plates, poor jobs of insulating, and so on. Then we have the issues inherent with stick framing such as thermal bridging that cant be easily solved. Strapping works but is more time and money. My limited opinion is that new construction techniques like ICF and SIP's (others as well) offer tighter envelopes with better R-values nd a reasonable payback. Couple these with top quality windows and doors to achieve the lowest airchange per hour and I think you have a winner with any heating system.

I have been researching radiant and really like it for what I percieve to be comfort and overall liveability. Two of the things I hate the most with forced air is the noise and dust and for this reasons plan to utilize radiant when I build new.
 

Gary S

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Don't you loose most of your heat through your ceiling anyway? Thats why I insulated to R49 in my ceiling. I put R13 in the walls. Where I live is colder than most of the country too.

You did it right. Going more than R13 in the walls won't save you nearly as much as adding more to the ceiling. Heat rises, so more of it escapes through the ceiling than the walls.
If you have R13 in the walls and R49 in your ceiling, adding more in either place would be a waste of time and money. With this combination, almost all your current heat loss will be your doors and windows. If you figure you need more insulation, put it into different doors and windows.
 

pcmeiners

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".....but i also don't want mold, bad air, etc...."
Air tight...
Re-sided my house, have two layers of Tyvek ,one layer foam board and fire code gold board. It is so air tight I had to create an air duct to the outside to feed the gas hot water and oil burner ...could get dangerous if not considered with older heating systems. Luckily moisture on the windows due to steam heat has not been an issue.

Meanwhile I have Anderson windows, but not the low E type, Low Es are really nice, saw a demo at a trade show, where they place an infra red heat lamp behind a standard double and a low E, amazing difference.
 

Bob Heine

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Any one do any after market garage door insulation? What have you used what is the best product for the most effective heat saving?
Thanks

I assume you are asking about insulating metal doors. I cut up 4x8 sheets of two-inch thick styrofoam to fit in the metal door sections. Filled the small voids with foam. Code here in coastal South Florida requires doors to have hurricane reinforcing bars so they hold the bats in place on my doors. Could also use adhesive foam or for a more finished look screw sheets of white flashing over the insulation.

With R-19 in the ceiling, R-13 in the walls, 2-inch foam in the three 7x8 doors I cool the 26x28 garage with a 12,000 BTU 110V A/C unit. Unit is mounted high on the wall and there is a ceiling fan in the center of the garage. Takes a half hour to cool the garage 5 degrees in the morning. Real benefit is the small unit extracts moisture so comfort level improves more rapidly than the temperature drops.
 

checkthisout

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The original calculation assumes an uninsulated wall and then calculates based off that.

This is akin to calculating a vehicle that gets 1 MPG against one that gets 20 MPG and one that gets 30.

On a building like mine with 28 squares of wall area, 2x4 vs 2x6 is $35 dollars a month in electricity @ $.075 KWh.
 
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krooser

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I got "free" fiberglass and blown insulation when I bought my "used" pole shed. (it was already insulated). Most of my ceiling is about R-72 or so... I wish I could find some more free stuff as it's pretty cost efficient.
 

B&H

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Here's my thoughts, for whatever they're worth. When we bought our house almost 20 years ago, there was maybe r30 in the attic, nothing in the walls, leaking doors, windows, etc.

Over the years, I ended up with R105 in the attic, blown-in insualtion in the walls (R13?)triple-pane, low-e, argon windows, new doors, etc. I knew that we were going to be here a long time, and knew that fuel costs were only going to go up over the years.

Cutting down the drafts and the amount of ceiling insulation made the most difference, in comfort and energy costs.

On the negative side, I inadvertantly made a sick house, and had humidity problems that several contractors could not figure out. With the house being so tight, I had a backdraft problem down the chimney if the kitchen fan was on and the gas hot water heater was burning. The hot water heater was venting in the house and causing all kinds of problems. I found that myself, by accident, and fixed it by installing a 300 cfm make-up air fan in the basement that blows fresh air in from an 8" duct outside. We turn that fan on anytime the kitchen fan is on. If the dryer or bath fan is on , it can passively make up the air.

So all that $ spent on tightening up the drafts left me putting one big draft back in, but the humidity problem is fixed. There has got to be a better way...
 
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