Building my first shop need advice

[Joe0121]

I apologize for the wall of text but I'd like to use this post to document the build and ask for advice.

My Budget is about 15,000 Max though I'd like to keep it around 10,000 So I have some left over for a new Compressor and over runs

In the Spring I will be moving two a new house that has an 30 x 50 Pole Barn Built on it. It has no insulation and no floor. It has a 10 foot is wide sliding door on one side and a 8 x 6 roll up door on the Other as well as a single window and Man door between the two larger doors. It is also pretty tall I am not sure of the height but I'd says it's Probably 16 feet or better

Here is a quick drawing of what I have in mind:

I am going to Pour a concrete floor throughout the whole shop. I am thinking a 6 inch pad on the side with the sliding door because I plan to eventually put in a two post lift in and a 3 inch pad under the rest of the shop.

On the Side with the Small Rollup and Man Door I want to build an Insulated Work Area of about 30 x 24. The Cost to just frame the whole Barn isnt much higher than building the separate room but the Cost of heating and cooling the whole barn would be prohibitive.

I plane to use 2x6 16" on center for framing the malls of the Insulated part of the shop.

My FIL live across the street and is a licensed electrician and plumber. He also has a good size back hoe. I also have a friend who will pour the slab for essentially his cost so I can save some money there.

The thing that surprises me is insulation is nearly as expensive as the lumber to frame up the walls.

I cant decide on 8 feet or 9 feet Walls. I am leaning towards 9 feet walls as it does add much cost to materials and the extra height will be nice but It also means higher cost to keep it climate controlled.

For some general questions:

1. I have been looking into I joists like these:
https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...rds/2-1-2-x-9-1-2-i-joist/p-1444435987992.htm

because I can get them in the exact length of the Span of the Shop. and They seem to be decently priced and from what I have heard easy to work with. I plan on Using to make something similar to a header for a garage door supported by Jack post in the Center of the Span. The Space above it will be a Mezzanine that will be used mostly for Storage and later as a hangout area once I can afford to insulate the rest of the shop.

Has anyone worked with those I beams before are there any Gotcha's that I would have with using simple 2 x 10's?

2. Would blow in insulation for the ceiling of the 30x24 shop be cheaper than batting?

3. Is contractor pricing on materials significantly cheaper than a guy just walking in off the street?

4. Have any of you dealt with the Ductless HVAC unit? I have seen estimations from 15,000 to 25,000 BTU for the size room I plan on cooling and heating. I would think I would need a dual zone at a minimum.

 

[matt_i]

The photo isn't coming thru, photobucket and flickr seem to work better for this site.

Google maps picks up a "Bellville, Ohio" and a "Bellvue Ohio" but not a "Belleville, Ohio". In any case I would think heating is a priority over A/C and so you should probably think about not using electricity for the heat part. The heat pump has some low temperature heat transfer capabilities, iirc its 100% of capacity down to 50F ambient and then linear dropoff to zero F. So around 25F you'd theoretically have 50% of heating capacity using 100% of amperage to do so. Typically its cheaper to burn a fuel gas than heat with electricity, although the minisplit would do a nice job in the summer.

I would pour a 4"-minimum floor, and thicken the area where the lift feet will be to give enough area/volume for the anchor bolts.

In my experience it takes huge volumes of purchasing on materials to get price breaks on materials. Like well into 5 figures/month in materials.

 

[brownbagg]

only thing you need is walls and slab, all the extra can be paid out of payroll, because its not much out of pocket, so pour the slab, insulate the walls and enjoy

 

[Joe0121]

The photo isn't coming thru, photobucket and flickr seem to work better for this site.

Google maps picks up a "Bellville, Ohio" and a "Bellvue Ohio" but not a "Belleville, Ohio". In any case I would think heating is a priority over A/C and so you should probably think about not using electricity for the heat part. The heat pump has some low temperature heat transfer capabilities, iirc its 100% of capacity down to 50F ambient and then linear dropoff to zero F. So around 25F you'd theoretically have 50% of heating capacity using 100% of amperage to do so. Typically its cheaper to burn a fuel gas than heat with electricity, although the minisplit would do a nice job in the summer.

I would pour a 4"-minimum floor, and thicken the area where the lift feet will be to give enough area/volume for the anchor bolts.

In my experience it takes huge volumes of purchasing on materials to get price breaks on materials. Like well into 5 figures/month in materials.

It's bellville sorry My 10 month old was wanting held while I was trying to type that out.

I agree electric heat is outrageous. I will likely only use the ductless for AC. I was considering radiant floor heat but I don't see that fitting in the budget. I just need something to keep it above 50 degrees when I'm not in there and up to 65 or so when I am.

 

[James-W]

I would do the concrete floor first as it will take a HUGE chunk of the budge, the rest of the things you want can be done later. Check around for someone to do the concrete work, but don't blindly take the cheapest bidder. Make sure to talk with other people who have had work done by that concrete crew and find out exactly how good of a job they really do. Find yourself a crew of concrete guys who will do a really good job and hire them even if costs quite a bit more money. The last thing you want is a crappy concrete job. That's my opinion.

 

[astroracer]

Just so you know, most 2 post lift companies require a minimum of 4" of concrete at 3500 psi. Any more then that and you are just wasting money. And, like was mentioned previously, go at least 4" for the whole building. That is generally code in most areas.
Mark

 

[Joe0121]

So far it just seems smarter to go 4 inches all around at 3500 PSI? What about Fiber reinforcement?

No experience with the I beams? A 2-1/2" x 9-1/2" x 24' I-Joist is 35.76 where as two 2" x 10"-12' #2 and Better Douglas Fir run about 28.00 bucks so give or take 7 bucks a span cheaper. They just seem easier to deal with.

 

[Joe0121]

I would do the concrete floor first as it will take a HUGE chunk of the budge, the rest of the things you want can be done later. Check around for someone to do the concrete work, but don't blindly take the cheapest bidder. Make sure to talk with other people who have had work done by that concrete crew and find out exactly how good of a job they really do. Find yourself a crew of concrete guys who will do a really good job and hire them even if costs quite a bit more money. The last thing you want is a crappy concrete job. That's my opinion.

We have a family friend who owns a concrete company and he does awesome work and like I said basically charges us what it cost him to do it.

 

[Dragfluid]

I'll give you a wall of text as a reply.
Like others have said, go 4" on the whole floor. You don't need any more than that for a hoist.
Not sure if you were clear on whether you are insulating/heating where the hoist is? If so, I would get an estimate on replacing that sliding door with an insulated garage door. You're in Ohio. It gets cold there.

As far as heat, don't use a heat pump. If you insulate it correctly, you can heat it with a small, hanging furnace. My 42x72 with 14' walls is heated by a hanging 75,000 BTW propane unit. I have a "low temp" thermostat that goes down to 35F. I'm in Minnesota, and I'm able to heat that large area with that small of a furnace due to the insulation.

The ceiling has 19" of cellulose blown into it. That will settle down to over 16", which is a little more than R-60. The walls have house wrap on the outside, 8 1/2" of dense pack cellulose, covered by 1" sheets of Polyiso foam. Drywall over that. During the coldest week last winter, the temp inside never got below 42F. And that was with the thermostat turned all the way down.
And don't forget ceiling fans! I have 3.

So, take the above for what it's worth. There's lots of good information on this site. Lot's of different opinions too. You have just been given mine.

 

[gnpenning]

Vapor barrier and insulate the floor. Be sure and keep a thermo break between the slab and the outside. If you are thinking about radiant heat run the pipes now. You can do it yourself and the cost won't be that high.

Depending on what you plan to store on top will depend on what you will need for joist and how far apart to put them and spans you can run. Example: If you plan to put a machine shop up there or engine blocks verse's Christmas decorations or a man cave.

Take lots of pics and do a build thread. It's easier to post pics from my computer than my phone. You can send them to your computer first then post.

 

[xyster101]

+1 to a 4" slab all over. You can dig a little deeper around the posts if you want.

I did radient heat floors. Well I spent $500 and put pipe in and 2 years later I have not hooked anything up to it. I got 1,000' for $300 on amazon. Just do like 200' zones and zip tie the pipe to the metal grid in the concrete. Amazon PEX

Spend the money on insulation now. You can't change it easily later, but you always can up grade a furnace or move interior walls.

Plan the things you can't change: Concrete, pipes, electric, insulation now.

 

[Joe0121]

Vapor barrier and insulate the floor. Be sure and keep a thermo break between the slab and the outside. If you are thinking about radiant heat run the pipes now. You can do it yourself and the cost won't be that high.

Depending on what you plan to store on top will depend on what you will need for joist and how far apart to put them and spans you can run. Example: If you plan to put a machine shop up there or engine blocks verse's Christmas decorations or a man cave.

Take lots of pics and do a build thread. It's easier to post pics from my computer than my phone. You can send them to your computer first then post.

It's only going to be light stuff up top. and Maybe eventually a couch and a TV. I was planning to insulate the floor no mater what.

 

[Joe0121]

+1 to a 4" slab all over. You can dig a little deeper around the posts if you want.

I did radient heat floors. Well I spent $500 and put pipe in and 2 years later I have not hooked anything up to it. I got 1,000' for $300 on amazon. Just do like 200' zones and zip tie the pipe to the metal grid in the concrete. Amazon PEX

Spend the money on insulation now. You can't change it easily later, but you always can up grade a furnace or move interior walls.

Plan the things you can't change: Concrete, pipes, electric, insulation now.

I looked up prices for radiant flooring and most of the quotes was with labor and like 5 bucks a square foot so thats what Scared me.

 

[Joe0121]

So I think I will Run Pex in the floor but for now I'll just buy a pellet stove with a extended hopper. In looking at the specs online 1,000 bucks buy a pellet stove that wont even break a sweat heating 900 SQ feet.

Using 2 x 6 walls I should have plenty of r value.

 

[rsanter]

personal opinion here...

like others have said you want 4'' thickness on the entire floor

do you know if you want a 2 post or a 4 post? if it was me I would add some thickness to the concrete in the area where a 4 2 post lift would go. remember that you do not need to go 6'' in the entire area where the car would sit but rather in the 4'x4' areas where the uprights would be bolted

I would pop and install PEX in the floor now. you can have it there and not use it for little cost but if you ever wanted to put it in later the cost would be over the top.
do it in several zones so you can choose to put a small system or larger system in later. you could even do a simple solar loop into the pex and bring a little heat in

those Ijoists are goo stuff, they install and are used just like dimensional lumber for your application. if they are saving you money over dimensional lumber (which is why they were invented) then you are good to go

go 9' height. the cost difference in heating is neglegable

be sure to install doors from the conditioned space to the inside of the rest of the barn. you don't want to open the door to the outside if you can avoid it

bob

 

[Firebrick43]

I just did some slabs of similar size(28x50) so I will give you some cost

2300$ of 6 bag with fiber, I would do 5" for a shop floor instead of 4". Different thickness of the slab will just cause cracking unless you isolate them from each other.
323$ for 10 mil segowrap barrier
1$ square foot finishing

1500$ for 8 inches of compacted limestone #8's which is 3/4"~ stone. This is the most important part of a slab in my opinion.

180$ for 6x6x 1.9 welded wire mesh. I would recommend #3 rebar on 18" centers setting on bolsters for a shop floor which will be double.

Shop supplyhouse.com for mr pex tubing. I spent right at 1000 dollars for 1300 feet of oxygen barrier tubing, fittings and the Milwaukee propex tool you will need 1500 feet of 1/2". The Milwaukee tool can be resold on eBay for 350 of the 400 dollars after your done. The propex type fittings are much better than the crimp style.

All labor except concrete placement and finishing was done by me. I own a plate compactor, you would probably need to rent one for 150$ over a weekend. I had a farm tractor to move the gravel but I could only pour over the edge so most was still moved by shovel/cart down in the hole. No more than 4" per lift and compact. Then do another 4"

Blown in cellulose is cheaper and a better insulation in air sealing and r value per inch than fiberglass

Supply houses can be cheaper but on many things such as wires d rebar I have found Menards to be half the cost???

 

[Joe0121]

Just got a quote from a local Insulation Place. The Recommended doing 3 inches of spray Foam under the Floor of the Mezzanine and r19 fiberglass under that to save a little money VS All Spray foam for the ceiling. Still 3500 bucks is A lot of Money.

24 X 30 X 9 ROOM WITH FLAT CEILING
WALLS- R-19 Fiberglass Insulation
CEILING – R-30 Fiberglass Insulation , NOTE: There would be no ventilation in the flat ceiling area and would risk moisture problems. See option for spray foam.
INSTALLED COST : $ 1,323.00

CEILING AREA : 3 inches 2 Pound Closed Cell Spray Foam with 6 inch R-19 Fiberglass Batts ADD : $ 2,167.00

Also a Harrdware Store in Charm Ohio called Keim is working a quote on the lumber for me They said I can buy the stuff in Feb when they have a big Sale and they will wait to deliver it until I'm Ready. Still I think Menards with an 11 Percent Rebate will be cheaper

I still think I will just use normal 2x10 for the ceiling VS I Joists. The I Joists are about 400 bucks more and really 400 Bucks is worth the extra 2 hours it will take me to use normal lumber.

I might get away with 2x8's but a 15' un supported Span is pushing it I would think and at a whopping extra 100 bucks I'd rather have the better insulation.

I am going to see if the concrete guy can get me a better deal on the Foam Boards and Steel Mesh for the Floor.