Made in China is inferior because of inferior workers or reduced specifications?

[6PTsocket]

Boeing's newest Airbus has its wings made in China, and I'm pretty sure some other major parts as well. I worked for a company where I was directly involved in the manufacturing process, the chinese will use the cheapest materials they can if you're not on them, they are not to be trusted.

"Boeing's newest Airbus"? Is that like Chevrolet's newest Ford? The reason the Chinese are making the wings is because they agreed to buy a whole mess if planes. The 777 fuselage is made by an Italian company that pioneered building with carbon fiber in giant jigs that nobody else has. Airbus buys from them too. Sometimes somebody develops a technology and has a lock on it for a while. Restoring US industry is not about isolationism.

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[Tom.C]

"Boeing's newest Airbus"...?

Well I suppose they don't call it an Airbus but you know what I mean, anyway yes it's true although I don't remember the model, maybe 737? It was their newest plane about a year ago when I read about it.

Edit: ah you beat me to it

 

[Teenager with old tools]

I find china based companies have better products than American companies with made in china.


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[L5wolvesf]

It'd be a bit less than that ..

... and yeah, for that wage it's a sure bet productivity and quality would take a serious hit.

Interesting graphic, it seems to be the same results I came up with when doing some research on the subject. Where did you find it?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Limiting the response to the SPECIFIC question asked, the answer is clearly "reduced specifications". But it is so much more than that.

First, it is salesmanship by the Chinese ("We can make that so mush cheaper if you change your specifications !"), followed closely by the greed of the purchasing company. It is hard to say which of these 2 leads the other although I suspect GREED is the biggest motivator.

Then there is the lack of quality control and quality assurance. If you don't know the difference, go do your homework.

There is also greed at the consumer end. Can I get by with the widget I buy from China at <50% of the cost ?



This all leads to where we are now. Super premium (i.e out of reach for most people) products (Snap-On) and crappy Chinese stuff (HF). Although, some Chines items are much better now than they were 10 years ago (most HF Pittsburgh hand tool). There is also they minor "tweaks" you can do to some things to make them very serviceable (HF hand plane after 30 minutes flattening with several grades of sandpaper on a piece of granite counter top and then 15+ minutes os properly sharpening the blade)

 

[nieuport17]

The op asked the question in the title, but kinda answered his own question in the end.
I think its a silly question that goes round and round.


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[Cato]

Chinese products come in a variety of quality levels.

It's foolish to say everything coming out of China is **** and everything coming out of the USA or Europe is top notch.

 

[srr]

I think a lot has to do with "as per sample" also. If the sample isn't 100% correct it will get made that way. I sell car parts at a major retailer and some of the stuff just boggles the mind at how ****** it is made.

 

[Wamsutta]

Specifications. A human worker is a human worker.

 

[dogdog]

These kind of threads brings out the Inferiority complex disorder and the superiority complex disorder of many .......

 

[openwheelracing]

Specification. Simple.

Chinese manufactures are capable of equal or higher quality than USA, but that's is not the reason our companies are there. We are there to reduce cost for higher profit while producing acceptable product. Fact is those Husky combination wrenches are perfectly fine for 99% of buyers. Why should Joe the accountant who rarely wrench buy snapon? He has a kit to put through college instead. Being a fiscal conservative, it is wise to buy the cheapest wrench possible which means made in china.

Want quality? Made in Taiwan is the way to go. USA manufacturing does not automatically equate to higher quality for quite some time now. Perception is everything, the World would rather buy western Europe or north east Asia these days.

 

[MikeF2316]

It'd be a bit less than that ..

... and yeah, for that wage it's a sure bet productivity and quality would take a serious hit.

The only trouble with this nice set of graphs - Notice how the "red" country in the bottom graph is different?

 

[zendriver]

Is this a rhetorical question?



Let's assume for the purposes of this discussion that Chinese workers are every bit as capable of producing a quality product than any other workers on the planet.



^ This statement pretty much sums up what you will hear in comments from people who have actually been involved in business transactions/manufacturing/trade with Chinese factories.
They will, left to their own devices, figure out any and every way to compromise quality to increase their profit margin, even if only by infinitesimal percentages.

Moreover, some of those compromises result in goods that are not only inferior, but dangerous: CFL light bulbs that burst into flames, blade-type automotive fuses (rated at 10 amps) that don't blow until they're loaded with 70+ amps, ad infinitum.
The bottom line being that overall, they cannot be trusted to produce a safe and reliable quality product.

But, we all have the ability to make our own choices about what sort of products we choose to purchase.

YMMV.

If you contract to have something made in China, they will build it to your specifications as long as you keep a representative there to watch the processes.

As much as we Americans like to pat ourselves on the back, for automatically producing a "job well done", reality shows that we have a historical massive quality control industry in place, that had to be put in place to ensure that everything agreed to is done and that corners have not been cut.

Every factory I ever worked in, had an inbound quality control, batch testing and verifying, raw materials, parts and components, to ensure quality. They had finished product inspection for the very same reason. Every load of concrete I delivered to a bridge, was tested for fudging of raw materials, or too much water, very common in that industry, where a little cheating, pays off over time.

https://www.google.com/#tbs=qdr:y&q=inbound+receiving+quality+control+inspectors

Apple gets flawless products from China, because they demand it and ensure it. Now doubt that quality comes at a price.

Walmart wants Chinese made products cheap. If a broom head fall off, at first use, oh well. It only cost the consumer a couple of bucks and WM 50 cents.

Every American company that imports foreign products, regardless of COO, is 100% responsible for the quality of that product, IMO.

 

[MikeF2316]

See........you get it. You really do. It is not a question of ethnicity or culture. .......Wells Fargo- doesn't that sum up that without good leadership or oversight that even the mighty US worker can be (as the op says) an inferior worker/reduced specifications. People will get away with what they can.

Honor and pride among workers are going extinct due to the multinational corporations which are the biggest crooks.

Not just Wells Fargo. Why does every meat processing plant need a government meat inspector? Why does every city building department have framing inspectors, electrical inspectors, plumbing inspectors, insulation inspectors, etc?

 

[zendriver]

And drop the "I'd pay more for a quality product" ********. No, you wouldn't. If you did, companies would not move their manufacturing in China.

True, but for most people, it's not even a matter of choice. It's real world economics.

For instance, American made floor jacks are less expensive today, but used to be priced horrendously, which is why most people - who could have used one (like me), never owned one, because they could not afford one.

Even today, they are still $400 and up, tough to most to justify the expense, for one tool.

HF selling one for $78? Sure, why not? BTW, the quality is just fine.

 

[Roberts210]

We have a lot of posts here about the perceived low quality of Chinese made tools.

PERCEIVED LOW QUALITY??? I've had Chinese grade-8 bolts break like toothpicks and I've had Chinese wheel cylinders come apart like a soda cracker. Perceived low quality? No, proven time and time again low quality

.......Going to back to the Chinese made tools, I don't think the quality is lower because it was made by Chinese people but rather due to reduced standards and quality control enforced by the manufacturers. The point is that it does not matter where it is made from, if the tools are made with lower specifications and standards, the tools will be inferior. If USA tools are made with reduced standards and relaxed specifications, you will get low quality tools.

It's the culture. After decades and decades of Communist rule the culture has forgotten Truth and without Truth what does it matter if a tolerance is 5 thou off, or 20 thou off.

 

[zendriver]

Not just Wells Fargo. Why does every meat processing plant need a government meat inspector? Why does every city building department have framing inspectors, electrical inspectors, plumbing inspectors, insulation inspectors, etc?

It's just another fantasy, that American businesses - large and small, automatically do things on the"up-and-up'. the opposite could not be more true.

Every last aspect of business, the Chinese now have, they have learned from America.

 

[zendriver]

PERCEIVED LOW QUALITY??? I've had Chinese grade-8 bolts break like toothpicks and I've had Chinese wheel cylinders come apart like a soda cracker. Perceived low quality? No, proven time and time again low quality




It's the culture. After decades and decades of Communist rule the culture has forgotten Truth and without Truth what does it matter if a tolerance is 5 thou off, or 20 thou off.

The retailer that sold you those products, purchased those products, because they were inexpensive, not because they were advertised as high quality.

Why is the retailer not held accountable?

Should we be accountable, as well, if we expect a .20 bolt to be of the same quality, of one costing normally $1.25?

 

[Hornman]

Be careful using bolts as an example in this thread. Industrial bolt users have been fighting a battle againt counterfeit bolts for over twenty years. The counterfeit bolts are NOT an example of reduced specifications! Counterfeit bolts are an example of outright criminality because of the vast amount of money involved. There are actually billions of dollars being stolen by the makers/vendors of counterfeit bolts. The problem got so bad that some U.S. Military equipment was put together with the counterfeit bolts and subsequently fell apart in the field. On the plus side, there has been some great technical innovation from this problem: the development of handheld mass spectrometer to determine the exact metalurgical mix of an incoming shipment of bolts. Nowdays Port Of Entry Customs Inspectors can identify counterfeit bolts at the entry port and turn the ship around.

 

[crab]

It's pretty simple really, most consumers are more concerned with price than quality. That's not just for products either, it has crossed over to a lot of services which the Chinese aren't involved in. Its a catch 22, they can't afford quality because they don't buy quality.

 

[zendriver]

It's pretty simple really, most consumers are more concerned with price than quality. That's not just for products either, it has crossed over to a lot of services which the Chinese aren't involved in. Its a catch 22, they can't afford quality because they don't buy quality.

Wages have been stagnating in the U.S., for the last 35 years.

This is the fault of the American consumer?

 

[zendriver]

Snap On has manufacturing plants, in China.

It would be interesting, to see how the quality is for tools produced there.

 

[Chief919]

Many factors at play.

The Chinese can make as high a quality item as anyone else, if they want.

When American companies order from China most don't order quality. Harbor Freight orders their stuff just good enough for people to buy it. They specify the junk they sell, that is what they get. Apply specifies much better quality and they get it.

And part of that is that Chinese companies will cheat and cut corners at ever chance possible. The only way to ensure proper quality when buying from China is to have a QC person on site, in China, who holds them to the spec. Because if you don't they will cut corners and ship and blame it on misunderstandings, bad plans, etc.

Of course the counterfeits out there are another issue. IP means nothing to them, if they can make it they will and they will put it out there. And being made with no buyer watching for quality means they are making it as cheap as possible just to sell.

 

[cdeer001]

Seriously, read Paul Midler's
Poorly Made in China: An Insider's Account of the China Production Game
2nd Edition
ISBN-13: 978-0470928073, ISBN-10: 0470928077

It can be found on the net in PDF format. It's a real eye opener.

Chris

 

[Roberts210]

The retailer that sold you those products, purchased those products, because they were inexpensive, not because they were advertised as high quality.

Why is the retailer not held accountable?

Should we be accountable, as well, if we expect a .20 bolt to be of the same quality, of one costing normally $1.25?

I used to take things back to the seller and demand a refund, but then I just stopped buying Chinee ****. Solved that problem real fast.

 

[Plombob]

There's a great article on this question:

https://aeon.co/essays/what-chinese-corner-cutting-reveals-about-modernity

 

[dnschmidt]

Are you people serious?

Of course the Chinese only make inferior products like the iPhone and Milwaukee tools. Clearly they are inherently incapable of producing quality products. They know nothing of design or engineering it is simply an anomaly that most of the graduate students in American Universities' Engineering Schools are Chinese or Indian.

Cutting corners is obviously only something the Chinese would do. Nothing like the continual striving for excellence exhibited by Ford and General Motors who shave .0001 penny from a car at every possible opportunity even if quality is affected. Nixon taught the Chinese capitalism and now the little bastards are better at it than we are. How did that happen.

Let's call this thread what it is: white guys trying to figure out why they are losing their position in the world.

Blaming the Chinese for Wall Street's greed and the cheapness of the American consumer might make you feel better but it's misdirected and false. The Chinese can build whatever quality you're willing to pay for; Apple and Milwaukee are obvious examples. Do you need to watch them like a hawk? Of course you do. Not that American companies would ever do anything shady e.g. Wells Fargo.

Can the Chinese make Snap-On quality tools: You're damn right they can. One reason being their factories are newer and have better machines than Snap-On likely does.

I worked in the semiconductor industry. This is the highest technology industry on Earth. When you're capable of putting millions of transistors in a square centimeter of silicon you've achieved something. Most semiconductors are now made in China, Taiwan or Korea. If you don't think they can forge a piece of steel if they feel like it and you're willing to pay for it you're nuts.

 

[dogdog]

Are you people serious?

Of course the Chinese only make inferior products like the iPhone and Milwaukee tools. Clearly they are inherently incapable of producing quality products. They know nothing of design or engineering it is simply an anomaly that most of the graduate students in American Universities' Engineering Schools are Chinese or Indian.

Cutting corners is obviously only something the Chinese would do. Nothing like the continual striving for excellence exhibited by Ford and General Motors who shave .0001 penny from a car at every possible opportunity even if quality is affected. Nixon taught the Chinese capitalism and now the little bastards are better at it than we are. How did that happen.

Let's call this thread what it is: white guys trying to figure out why they are losing their position in the world.

Blaming the Chinese for Wall Street's greed and the cheapness of the American consumer might make you feel better but it's misdirected and false. The Chinese can build whatever quality you're willing to pay for; Apple and Milwaukee are obvious examples. Do you need to watch them like a hawk? Of course you do. Not that American companies would ever do anything shady e.g. Wells Fargo.

Can the Chinese make Snap-On quality tools: You're damn right they can. One reason being their factories are newer and have better machines than Snap-On likely does.

I worked in the semiconductor industry. This is the highest technology industry on Earth. When you're capable of putting millions of transistors in a square centimeter of silicon you've achieved something. Most semiconductors are now made in China, Taiwan or Korea. If you don't think they can forge a piece of steel if they feel like it and you're willing to pay for it you're nuts.

.... No body cares to remember why the jobs are moving over seas in the first place, it's one of those, I don't want to hear it..... just blanket blame the Chinese or the Mexicans.... Even if the jobs are moved back to the US.... do you think people are still willing to take on some of the jobs ? MCD workers are making more than some executives there at the current salaries/wages.

 

[DeltaWye]

Are you people serious?

Of course the Chinese only make inferior products like the iPhone and Milwaukee tools. Clearly they are inherently incapable of producing quality products. They know nothing of design or engineering it is simply an anomaly that most of the graduate students in American Universities' Engineering Schools are Chinese or Indian.

Gee, if they're so far ahead why would they need to come to North America to study?

Oh, and

At Ohio State University, a Chinese student took tests for Chinese classmates for cash last year, guaranteeing an A.

At the University of California, Irvine, some international students used a lost-ID-card ruse to let impersonators take exams in place of others.

At the University of Arizona, a professor told of Chinese students handing in multiple copies of the same incorrect test answers.

A flood of foreign undergraduates on America’s campuses is improving the financial health of universities. It also sometimes clashes with a fundamental value of U.S. scholarship: academic integrity.

A Wall Street Journal analysis of data from more than a dozen large U.S. public universities found that in the 2014-15 school year, the schools recorded 5.1 reports of alleged cheating for every 100 international students. They recorded one such report per 100 domestic students.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/05/foreign-students-seen-cheating-more-than-domestic-ones.html

 

[dogdog]

Gee, if they're so far ahead why would they need to come to North America to study?

Oh, and



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/05/foreign-students-seen-cheating-more-than-domestic-ones.html

This is what I was told... when I was in school with them...

1) it's easier to get into the NA universities.... there is a top 50s of choices TOFOL is easy, guarantee acceptance if you can paid and score decent on TOFOL. Same thing with competing to the IIT in India ratio is 1:10000 acceptances as oppose here any body pays.

2) it's a more prestige thing (resume wise) to study aboard then go back there even if it is graduating from the lesser university....

 

[shockwave]

This is perfect example of quality control and not having the same standards as us and German company's not saying there's always better products from wherever it is made but more of the quality hand tools come from Germany or USA

Now electronics of all sorts come from china where they are king very few are not made overseas and it has been this way for years aswell

Let's not forget about union workers in us plants that cause cost to go up aswell unfortunately all this has factors on price for your average person to get for cheaper on tools or drills etc

 

[exmaxima1]

Thank you! I bought a Chinese made violin for my daughter because an European made violin was over $10,000 but a comparable Chinese one was less than $2500. The quality of Chinese violin is just incredible and maybe even better than the European made in terms of sound, depth, tone, quality, fit and finish. In this case paying more does not get you more.

I bought a new Squier (Fender subsidiary) Precision Bass a few years ago, made in China. I've owned about 100 basses, including many USA and Mexican-made Fenders, and the Chinese bass was every bit as good as the 4x more costly USA version. Given the proper specs, materials, and oversight they can do excellent work.

 

[Davefr]

And part of that is that Chinese companies will cheat and cut corners at ever chance possible.

I can think of a German auto company that does the same thing.

Cutting corners is not unique to China.

The Chinese can make as high a quality item as anyone else, if they want.

Agree 100%. But substitute "want" for "are funded".

The motivation to outsource is in pursuit of lowest cost. It would be interesting to contract with China to produce a widget with "best of class" worldwide quality and see what the price tag becomes.

 

[reader2580]

Tools made in usa, canada, germany, etc, are made by people who make a fair wage, and have some degree of pride in their career and what they are producing.

It it really a fair wage when many factories in the USA pay line workers $15 an hour or less. $15 an hour in the USA is barely scraping by and might require living with roommates to pay the rent.

 

[reader2580]

Someone I know is a quality engineer for a local company. The company has everything made in other countries. They started in Mexico so he traveled to Mexico three out of four weeks to oversee quality. They shifted production to China around 2008 or so and now he travels to China to oversee quality. He stays in China for two to three weeks due to cost of travel. He used to be home every weekend.

This is what they have do to ensure a quality product is being made.

 

[guy48065]

Gee, if they're so far ahead why would they need to come to North America to study?

Obviously to get North American positions after graduation. Right or wrong foreign diplomas are perceived as worthless.

 

[Roberts210]

It it really a fair wage when many factories in the USA pay line workers $15 an hour or less. $15 an hour in the USA is barely scraping by and might require living with roommates to pay the rent.

Depends on where you live. Out in the boonies, where more and more companies are willing to locate, due to the culture of honesty and integrity prevalent there, $15 an hour is not a bad wage.

 

[Roberts210]

3rd world students are more likely to cheat, as the Fox story in the above post points out, because cheating is about the only way those who live in 3rd world Countries can get ahead. So cheating becomes a way of life for them and when they move here they just keep cheating. It's the culture.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

EPA, Unions, Labor Laws, Local, state, and federal building codes, Hazardous Waste Disposal Regulations, OSHA, DOT Regulations. / little of this may apply / depending upon where You place the dot on the globe / Any chance some money-minded business leaders take this into account?

 

[Autoguy]

The labbor cost in China is very low compared to any industrial nation and this is an advantage they can use it to make better product like Japan used to do three decades back when the Japanese Yen was cheap ?especially in products with higher labbor to material cost like most of hand tools instead they opted to cheat or collaborated with a foreign cheater and forge or imitate world famous brands etc??

why they do taht when they have the ability and know how is a big question may be they have a lower ethics than neighbouring Japan?

China also mastered mass production and built an Economy of Scale in the last decades in many industries (tools is an example ) and this is another advantage to improve their product quality without any signficant increas in the production cost?

China has almost a monopoly in low tech products and electronic manfacturering and this shpuld improve the quality?althoug now yo can buy somp quality local i phone like names HTC Hawei ?but in general no body trust any Chinese domestic brand??

People who buy Chinese quality know they will not last and I am sure they know and wishes to made in USA or Germany instead>

My advice don't make yourself like a laboratory micese and let the Chinese test their product on your account

Avoid the cheater regardless of the COO because if you do buy you are rewarding the cheater and punishing the honest manufacturer

You spend decades to build a reputation for quality and in few days you can lose people trust >>China is losing the world trust and people who buy made in China stuff either can't afford the alternatives or accept that it will be a sunk cost soon.