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Framing question

Captshady842

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IMG_4034.jpgGood day all. Has anybody seen a roof that will change pitch on the last foot to match the soffit on the rest of the roof. I've been searching for hours trying to find a picture of something similar so I can see how it will look. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This picture is what they are doing
 

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Jess

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I can't see the picture, but only a foot at the eave shouldn't be a problem, up or down. Depending on what you intend, a piece can either be added to the top of the rafter, or joined to the rafter tail. If you are using trusses, the truss design will accommodate the requirement.
 
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Captshady842

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Plans didn't address that part. The porch is an add-on. Have you ever seen a roof do that? Contractor is waiting to see what I want to do but I was trying to find an example of what this will look like.
 

Git

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It almost looks like it is an after thought or they are trying to fix a mistake. Are they trying to make it look like the 'tails' are more of a 90 degree angle to the header - because the joists aren't?
 

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Captshady842

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The rest of the building is a 10 12 pitch and they are trying to make the soffit match all the way around.
 

Ironcrow

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Going for a thatched roofed cottage look?
 

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readhead

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Find a new framer. If the fascia is plumb instead of square they should be able to chase it all the way around the building. More pics would be helpful.
 

Zeke

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The rest of the building is a 10 12 pitch and they are trying to make the soffit match all the way around.

And that abomination is all kinds of pitches in just one shed. I see what he is doing there. Find a competent framer. And listen to Bill (bczygan) here, this is what he does. (Not framing but building design)
 
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RWorth

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what are you roofing with, 'cause I'm thinking most shingles are not going lay flat on a changing pitch. First blow and you'll have a yard full of shingles.
 

Zeke

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I'd like to see the plan view of that before I break my neck. I think the problem can be solved in part with a hip rafters. You're showing 2 different ends, correct?

Yep, I've got it now. Hips are needed along with more overhang.

I'm still seeing more. This porch wraps around a corner on 2 sides. Nightmare, but it can be done.
 
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matt_i

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Imo if you are trying to match soffit height/elevation and don't have a drawing, you have to tack the fascia board up with some temporary supports to its true position in space, and then "rafter" it back from there.

Its always good to have plans because then there's some standard to judge the work against, plus good plans allow you to take measurements and angles from the math data and get a piece that's going to be correctly sized +/- the tolerance that is held in the build.
 

Zeke

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2 pitches

I've done that and the 2 pitches have to be separated with a hip and that hip is not at a 45º. Last time I did that the framers couldn't grasp what I was doing, got into a violent argument amongst themselves and I fired them on the spot. I did it without a problem.

Captshady is right and each shed is a plane, not some POS like that thing.
 

bczygan

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First, the problem isn't in the three sides of each hip. The slopes seem to match, so fascias on three sides will too. They seem to be trying to get the fascias and overhangs to match by doing a 2 pitch on all three of the hip overhangs.

Visually, I would NOT try to make the fascia or soffit or even necessarily the overhang match all the way around. They are two different roof types and slopes, and sit on two different structures, one a box, and one framing and columns with a wide band of LVL's.

You can get the fascias to match, but not the overhangs, or the overhangs to match, but not the fascias.

The porch and hip structure is constrained by how low the LVL;s can be, so that raises the rafters with their smaller slope. To get their fascia to match the bulk of the building, it would need a larger overhang, and that's just what I would do. A wider brim on the lower hat. Then the fascia on the higher slope roof (Which has a smaller overhang, but the same height and size fascia), dies into the back of the hip roof. Here it is from the back:
20161211_173006_zpserxz1h4r.jpg


You could call the detail they have, a "feature", but would have to clad it in metal. I still don't like it as well.

To get the overhangs, soffits and fascias to all match, without crossing like my sketch, the hip needed to be lower or the gable roof higher. I would have made the gable roof higher, so the hip ended into it.


Understand?

POSTSCRIPT: I showed this thread and my thumbnail to my wife Julie, and she quoted another thread from today...."What did you do with the money your mother gave you for art school?" ....I about fell out!

Bill
 
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readhead

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The new picture clarifies the problem. There is plenty of room to drop the beam structure and make the tails work out. This should never have gotten to this point. I would still fire the framers unless they are willing to fix it at no cost to you. Of course they couldn't figure it out the first time.
 

shelteredV

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Visually, I would NOT try to make the fascia or soffit or even necessarily the overhang match all the way around. They are two different roof types and slopes, and sit on two different structures, one a box, and one framing and columns with a wide band of LVL's.

The porch and hip structure is constrained by how low the LVL;s can be, so that raises the rafters with their smaller slope. To get their fascia to match the bulk of the building, it would need a larger overhang, and that's just what I would do. A bigger brim on the lower hat. Then the fascia on the higher slope roof (Which has a smaller overhang, but the same height and size fascia), dies into the back of the hip roof.

You could call the detail they have, a "feature", but would have to clad it in metal. I still don't like it as well.

Understand?

This^^ there is no good explanation of trying to "roll" through that pitch change. The only time I have done anything close to this is on a flat, slow slope EPDM roof. Honestly, the rafters and hips should come off and be rehung higher to create a "higher hat" Those scrap add on tails are going to junk in a hurry.
 
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readhead

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The window is causing most of the problem along with bad design. Why not frame the roof correctly and recess the roof for the window or use a smaller window. There is no way to make the siding look good the way it is framed now.
 

bczygan

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Another solution that might help with the window clearance and also reduce the bulky feeling of the height of the beams, is to lower all the roof rafters of the hip roof, ending them into the inside of the beams with hangers or a ledger. Then continue the slope on the outside, creating an overhang and fascia sufficient to match the fascia height on the rest of the building. This would lower the hip roof by the depth of the rafters.

Might still need a slightly larger overhang, and the 2 pitches might still cross. Would have to lay it out to see. Would need to securely fasten the framing triangles to the outside of the beams and provide a thin angled piece of blocking on top of the LVL's for the plywood decking to cross over them.

Understand?

Bill
 
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SH7mi

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I personally have never seen framing like this. Its obvious that no thought/planning (on the contractors part) went into matching the eaves/overhang when you decided to add on the porch.
Other than dismantling the porch, I think no matter the 'fix' it will look off. As bczygan stated, the beams supporting the rafters on the porch are set too high.
 

APEowner

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Plans didn't address that part. The porch is an add-on. Have you ever seen a roof do that? Contractor is waiting to see what I want to do but I was trying to find an example of what this will look like.

Does that mean that there are no plans for the porch? I'm just trying to get a handle on how the contractor got into this mess. What plans or parameters was he given?
 

harleybear66

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those posts and beams need to get lowered- I can't see any other way

the new and hopefully more competent framer will know that the initial math and birds mouth layout needs to be done on the tails of the hip rafters before any other rafters are cut
 

readhead

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Even though I recommended lowering the beams the more I look at it the siding on the gable is going to look like ***. Maybe plane the hip into the trusses and make a ******* hip? Make the window smaller?
 

kbs2244

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I have done it like your sketch.
But on a "barn style" 3 ridge roof.
Real rafters meeting the all top plate and false rafters out to the fascia.
The end result is a "flare" at the bottom of the steep pitch.
The asphalt shingles don't seem to mind the bend.
 

Jlbc212

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Maybe the framer got stuck trying to remedy a piss-poor job by the architect or designer. Lots of things look good on paper, particularly roof slope intersections, but can't be built.
 

KnurledNut

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Another option is upturning the tails on the main roof.
To give it a gambrel overhang look.
Cut the hip overhang off.
Extend hip rafters like typical.
Let that set the lower gambrel pitch for the rest of the buildings overhang.
Lots of work, but a viable option that would look good IMO.
 

KnurledNut

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He can lower the beams (if that's what you mean) but there is a 7' minimum off finish floor. How much is left there? Just inches if I can scale at all.

If thats a 6-8 door, that should be at least a 9' wall.
Should have room to drop.
 
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Captshady842

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Well the shop walls are 10ft. He is changing it just not sure how. I really don't care if it matches all the way around or if the overhang is longer on porch side. I hopefully will know more later. I will never go without plans again. I will even plan my trip to take out the trash from here on out.
 

bczygan

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Well the shop walls are 10ft. He is changing it just not sure how. I really don't care if it matches all the way around or if the overhang is longer on porch side. I hopefully will know more later. I will never go without plans again. I will even plan my trip to take out the trash from here on out.

It's not just plans, but plans with enough detail, that you get what you want and expect.

I learned that truth early on. I drew up a set of plans for an office building with a reveal of ceramic tile between the wall and overhanging roof. One elevation showed the reveal, but there was no detail on how to frame it.

So the framing crew completely missed or ignored the elevation that showed the reveal and framed things flush. Too late and expensive to change, so the shadow line that I desired, that would make the design pop, didn't happen.

It's about communication. Sometimes Architects and Designers will show what they want something to look like, but not how to make it so.

Bill
 
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bczygan

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Well the shop walls are 10ft. He is changing it just not sure how. I really don't care if it matches all the way around or if the overhang is longer on porch side. I hopefully will know more later. I will never go without plans again. I will even plan my trip to take out the trash from here on out.

You really want to take another ride on the merry go round?

How come you didn't come to a concrete and agreed upon solution?

What if his solution isn't acceptable? Will he change it again?

Do you have a preference for any of our solutions?

Bill
 
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