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Best Bang for the Buck? - new construction

Utahcarguy

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Hey everyone. I've been reading through posts and I see lots of info, but nothing quite like what I have going on. So, I am building a new house with a 2,000 sq. ft. garage. I'm VERY excited to have so much space! I will store a couple classic cars and have a lift for working on the cars, as well as our daily drivers.

I was originally thinking of using a torpedo radiant heater because as doors open and close, the radiant heater will perform better than forced air and my neighbor has one and recommended it.

I am installing radiant floor heat in the rest of the house but it is quite expensive, so I was going to pass on heating the garage this way.

I have LP available and the garage will be insulated. What do you think is the best bang for the buck to heat such a large space? Thanks!
 
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csp

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It depends on how much of the time it will be heated.

Are you going to keep it at a constant temperature or just heat it when you're working in the garage? If the latter, how often will you be using the heat?
 

mygarageone

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Radiant tube heaters are perfect for a garage for either full time use or part time.
They heat the objects and the concrete floor.
Will there be some time lag if you use it occasionally ? Yes but don't be fooled into thinking a forced air system will be better , it's not . You'll always have a cold floor and that's where the real comfort should be . If you have warm floors you stay a lot more comfortable.

It would be nice to know where your located ?
 

Randy in Maine

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Just run a new hot water line to and from the garage for your shop radiant floor heat from the house boiler. Nothing is cheaper than that.
 

n20junkie

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For temporary heating (occasional winter use) nothing is faster than forced air.

Heating a few hundred tons of concrete before the shops air begins to warm vs heating the air isn't even a competition for warm air heat time. I will agree that there is a much faster recovery time for opening doors wih radiant heat, but I don't fix aircraft at home, and really don't open my door all winter long.

Maybe people like to lay on their floors more than I do, but I am usually on a creeper or a piece of cardboard and don't have issues with a cool floor. I do chassis work and sit on the floor to fit and weld and don't swear off forced air. Plus with forced air, you can add AC for summer comfort. Adding water loops, a boiler circuit and then an air handler for AC is just out of m budget range.

Thats my opinion.
 

matt_i

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As you already know, radiant is basically "on" 24x7 during heating season, can ramp up or down but slowly.

Forced air is fast to heat up a space. I have a 100k BTU furnace for my 2200sf shop. A 20-30F gain is pretty fast within ~15 minutes or so of runtime.

Overhead radiant tube heating is a good idea for a space where you can't trap heated air.

Im partial to the forced air solution, I would do it again in a new shop if I started over.
 

bzinsky

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Hey everyone. I've been reading through posts and I see lots of info, but nothing quite like what I have going on. So, I am building a new house with a 2,000 sq. ft. garage. I'm VERY excited to have so much space! I will store a couple classic cars and have a lift for working on the cars, as well as our daily drivers.

I was originally thinking of using a torpedo radiant heater because as doors open and close, the radiant heater will perform better than forced air and my neighbor has one and recommended it.

I am installing radiant floor heat in the rest of the house but it is quite expensive, so I was going to pass on heating the garage this way.

I have LP available and the garage will be insulated. What do you think is the best bang for the buck to heat such a large space? Thanks!

The correct answer depends entirely on how you're using the heat.

If you want to keep it warm all winter, you cannot beat radiant floor heat.
 

theoldwizard1

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It depends on how much of the time it will be heated.

Are you going to keep it at a constant temperature or just heat it when you're working in the garage? If the latter, how often will you be using the heat?

More importantly, how many hours a week will you be in the garage ? If you are going to be out there a lot, you will regret the cold floor. No other heat source is as COMFORTABLE as radiant in floor heat.

If you are a wood worker, then a wood floor will help.

What ever you do, install 2" of rigid foam AND a vapor barrier. It will help even if you don't do the radiant heat.
 

Radix2

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New home with 2000 sqft garage....hmmm

spend the money on the radiant.

if your use is low, keep it just frost free and use another type (if you need speed) for quick heat.

if you already have the boilers etc. it would seem silly to me not to buy the 2000ft of pex now - which is the only chance there will ever be. Radiant is very very good and this is your only chance.

The budget is probably blown anyway... :)
 

Jackfre

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Rinnai EX38C-LP It has a modulating gas valve, 2.5" hole in the wall for the vent. Sealed combustion. Programmable stat that has a feature that even if the heater is off and the temp gets down to a set-point which you choose, the unit will come on to maintain that minimum temp you have selected. Minimum is 38*. Programmable stat but in. Simple install and very durable and reliable.
 
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Utahcarguy

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More info:

I live near Park City, Utah at around 7k ft. in elevation! It gets cold here. I plan on using the heat 24/7 during the Winter months of Nov - April. When I work on stuff in the garage, I will likely not be lying on the floor. I will have a car lift, so I will be standing most of the time.

That being said, what do you think about radiant in the floor set to a minimum temp, like 50* and use forced air to bring up the temp quick when I will be working in the garage?

theoldwizard1, "What ever you do, install 2" of rigid foam AND a vapor barrier. It will help even if you don't do the radiant heat." Where do you install this foam? Between studs?

Regarding running floor radiant...the cost gets more expensive because I have to buy a bigger boiler, not just run additional hose.

Thoughts?
 

Voi

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That being said, what do you think about radiant in the floor set to a minimum temp, like 50* and use forced air to bring up the temp quick when I will be working in the garage?

theoldwizard1, "What ever you do, install 2" of rigid foam AND a vapor barrier. It will help even if you don't do the radiant heat." Where do you install this foam? Between studs?

He means foam under the slab. I agree - do this regardless.

As far as the radiant floor heat, I'm not as much of a fan of it as some here but I think you'd be crazy not to price the larger boiler if you plan to heat the space 24/7 in the winter. Great for speeding up the evaporation of snow melt and I don't think there will be a cheaper way to keep the space heated all winter, especially if you have tall ceilings.
 

danski0224

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Hey everyone. I've been reading through posts and I see lots of info, but nothing quite like what I have going on. So, I am building a new house with a 2,000 sq. ft. garage. I'm VERY excited to have so much space! I will store a couple classic cars and have a lift for working on the cars, as well as our daily drivers.

I was originally thinking of using a torpedo radiant heater because as doors open and close, the radiant heater will perform better than forced air and my neighbor has one and recommended it.

I am installing radiant floor heat in the rest of the house but it is quite expensive, so I was going to pass on heating the garage this way.

I have LP available and the garage will be insulated. What do you think is the best bang for the buck to heat such a large space? Thanks!

If the garage is 2k SF, then I can only imagine how big the rest of the home is.

I think you need to re-evaluate the "budget" and install the mechanicals that will be near-impossible to do later.
 

larry_g

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My sales pitch for hot water floors. I have machine tools and lots of iron in the shop.If the floor is warm the heat rises and keeps the machines and tools warm. I'm sure you have experienced grabbing a cold tool and it hurts. The tools will be warm even in a cold shop and if your working hard enough to sweat then the cooler ambient air a plus.

My story.

lg
no neat sig line
 
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Utahcarguy

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If the garage is 2k SF, then I can only imagine how big the rest of the home is.

I think you need to re-evaluate the "budget" and install the mechanicals that will be near-impossible to do later.

The house isn't crazy big...4850 sg ft. I just wanted a big garage!:rocker:

I will talk to our builder about the foam under slab. I'm waiting on quotes, but the garage alone would cost about $15k for radiant on floor. A ceiling torpedo would be about $800 and a forced air is another $400 or so....that's a big difference!
 

Randy in Maine

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The house isn't crazy big...4850 sg ft. I just wanted a big garage!:rocker:

I will talk to our builder about the foam under slab. I'm waiting on quotes, but the garage alone would cost about $15k for radiant on floor. A ceiling torpedo would be about $800 and a forced air is another $400 or so....that's a big difference!

You could do better. Just heat the hot water for the garage from the house boiler. Keep the pilot light out of the garage.
 

sands35

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It is likely that you will get more bang for the buck if you insulate well and keep the garage at 40-45*F when you are not in there. That will save more money that the newest high efficiency setup set to 65*F.

Heated floors are nice for steady state, but can take an hour, or more, to get up to temp. Forced air is faster, but your floor and stuff won't heat up fast, just the air. Can solve the problem with a wifi thermostat to kick it up before you go out there.

4850 sq ft is big. My wife complains about cleaning a 3000 sq ft home. haha.

To control costs, you could do it in a couple steps. Have underfloor foam and pipes installed at build, then come back in a year and install the panel and boiler. Maybe install a force air heater in the mean time for a quick solution.

But I have to say that rolling around on the floor working on a car is SOOO much nicer when the floor is 55*F.
 

Radix2

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in a wide open space, radiant floors are much more comfortable and efficient - the heat is down where you are - if you do air, you have to fill that whole space from top down. with floor heat, I find even 55 degree floors very comfortable for working - in normal wintertime clothes long sleeves, sweatshirts, etc.

I have a 40x50x18 garage and a 40x35x9.5 workshop attached to my house. Unless this is just parking area, this is not a place to cut corners...IMO of course.
 

DaveIRL

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It is likely that you will get more bang for the buck if you insulate well and keep the garage at 40-45*F when you are not in there. That will save more money that the newest high efficiency setup set to 65*F.

Heated floors are nice for steady state, but can take an hour, or more, to get up to temp. Forced air is faster, but your floor and stuff won't heat up fast, just the air. Can solve the problem with a wifi thermostat to kick it up before you go out there.

4850 sq ft is big. My wife complains about cleaning a 3000 sq ft home. haha.

To control costs, you could do it in a couple steps. Have underfloor foam and pipes installed at build, then come back in a year and install the panel and boiler. Maybe install a force air heater in the mean time for a quick solution.

But I have to say that rolling around on the floor working on a car is SOOO much nicer when the floor is 55*F.

I agree in most parts but personally i want the heating tank if there is one for the house as close as possible to the range/stove/boiler as possible minimize heat loss.
 
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Streetbu

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2" foam goes under the slab. $15k for a roll or two of PEX? You're getting raped. If you're going to heat all winter, I would absolutely do the PEX and keep the temp at 50. Then a small furnace to bump it up to a working temp when you're out there.
 
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csp

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That $15k must be for a standalone system. Seems rather silly for its own system if the home already has a boiler. Just upsize the boiler the house will have appropriately.
 

joe--h

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The house isn't crazy big...4850 sg ft. I just wanted a big garage!:rocker:

I will talk to our builder about the foam under slab. I'm waiting on quotes, but the garage alone would cost about $15k for radiant on floor. A ceiling torpedo would be about $800 and a forced air is another $400 or so....that's a big difference!

I lived in Utah for about 6 years and watched many homes built. Insulation under the slab and around the basement walls was almost never done. The contractors didn't care, not their house.

If you are building a garage that big you will never be able to heat it if you don't insulate under the slab & at the stem wall.

EPS foam, AKA beadboard is what you need. It's treated with borate so the ants don't eat it.

If your builder tells you not necessary find another builder. Energy costs are never going to go down, do it right now. Once the slab is in it's too late.

Start here https://buildingscience.com/document-search?topics[0]=699

I knew the biggest foundation contractor in the Cedar City area when I lived there. never saw any foam on his jobs.

And that bubble insulation **** is just that, ****.

Joe H
 

CNGsaves

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+1 for up-size on the house boiler and just another zone for the garage radiant.

Keep the garage at 55 degrees all winter with the radiant. If there are times you need it warmer and quick, install a hanging heater also.

Hopefully you're in area with NATURAL GAS service as ALL your heating solutions should be running NG.

With such large house, be sure that NG provider gives you 2 psi (ie "high pressure") service so that you'll never be starved of NG flow at all your natural gas appliances.

I'd even UP-size the NG line into garage area as I'd have NG compressor so that you could fuel your own vehicle with CNG !! :D Utah is awash with natural gas and CNG stations across entire state at $1.66/gge. :rocker:
 

danski0224

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The house isn't crazy big...4850 sg ft. I just wanted a big garage!:rocker:

I will talk to our builder about the foam under slab. I'm waiting on quotes, but the garage alone would cost about $15k for radiant on floor. A ceiling torpedo would be about $800 and a forced air is another $400 or so....that's a big difference!

The builder typically marks up bids from subs by a minimum of 100%.

If the $15k price is for a complete stand-alone system with a modulating boiler, that number may not be too far off, figuring in the builder markup.

I would do the rough-in prep which would consist of the foam and vapor barrier and the tubing. A heat load calculation would be needed, as well as a tubing layout. The tubing size and number of loops/feet per loop would change if a glycol mix is to be used. This is the stuff that you will not be able to do in the future without busting up the floor.
 

bzinsky

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+1 for up-size on the house boiler and just another zone for the garage radiant.

Keep the garage at 55 degrees all winter with the radiant. If there are times you need it warmer and quick, install a hanging heater also.

I was just going to suggest this

I mean most of us wear long sleeved clothing anyway to work on things. Coupled with the fact that you're actually working and not sitting on a couch, 55 is pretty comfortable in my opinion.
 
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Utahcarguy

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First, thank you ALL very much. I am using this forum to base my decision on what to do!

I got the line item quote from one of the contractors. $33,900 for the house and add $9,245.00 for just the garage. That is NOT a stand-alone system, but rather a larger boiler and labor/materials for the extra zone. Thoughts?

How hard is it to do my own radiant in the garage? I'm nervous to mess something up!

***
Bid Total
1 Residential Radiant Heat System With Indirect Water Heater.
1 Complete residential radiant heat system which includes up to(10) zones - up to(3638) sqft heated - (Laars LX-150) 95% boiler - (80)gal indirect water heater - glycol feeder - glycol - wire mesh - Insul-tarp insulation (under heated slab) - boiler vent - purge - startup.
1 Add $9,245.00 to add floor heat to the garage. Boiler LX-220.
1 Any Changes from this bid will need to be quoted and approved in advance.
Consider better insulation under slab-on-grade areas. Insulate the perimeter of all heated slabs (this is not included in the quote). Consider where the boiler vent and in-take air will be located before the job begins. Locating in-take air to close to the boiler vents will cause the boiler to malfunction, and will cause the boiler to fail prematurely. Consider leaving adequate space for the mechanical equipment and adequate space to service the equipment.
Any of the following; Permits, Fire stop, Import backfill material, Concrete removal or patching, Wall demolition or repairs, Repairs to existing piping, Repairs to existing flooring, Electrical Work, Pipe insulation.. Gas flex only to appliance.
All work described above to be completed in a according to standard industry practices.
Any alterations or deviation from the above specifications, whether written or oral, involving extra cost of materials or labor will become an extra charge in addition to the sum in this quote.
$33,932.00
 

bzinsky

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Without knowing market rate for this, that seems fairly reasonable for 2k sq feet.

That's a pretty nice boiler

Radiant with that boiler.....your heating bills are going to be cheap as dirt and you're going to be very comfortable

Edit: I just checked the price on that boiler, only $600 bucks more for the lx-220

Probably another $1500 in materials for the garage.

Sounds kinda steep now actually when you consider the fact that the cement is not part of that $9,245

Is the garage attached or detached?
 
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Utahcarguy

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Without knowing market rate for this, that seems fairly reasonable for 2k sq feet.

That's a pretty nice boiler

Radiant with that boiler.....your heating bills are going to be cheap as dirt and you're going to be very comfortable

Edit: I just checked the price on that boiler, only $600 bucks more for the lx-220

Probably another $1500 in materials for the garage.

Sounds kinda steep now actually when you consider the fact that the cement is not part of that $9,245

Is the garage attached or detached?

Attached garage.
 

sr71

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Caveat: Assumption is that you intend to work in your garage throughout the year

I also have a radiant floor home. My garage however is heated via forced air gas because it was an afterthought. No question if I was building new, I would 1st consider upsizing the boiler and treat the garage as another zone and if not practical go with a separate boiler.

Also .... since you will have a completely separate ducted A/C system to install in the house (essentially a 2nd heating system minus the heating unit) ... I'd consider doing the garage at same time. In case you had not thought about it ....because the ductwork is for A/C only, the ducts will not be at at floor level - ducts should (will) be closer to ceiling. Less dust and more efficient cooling of rising hot air.

Sounds like a great home in the making.
 

danski0224

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I got the line item quote from one of the contractors. $33,900 for the house and add $9,245.00 for just the garage. That is NOT a stand-alone system, but rather a larger boiler and labor/materials for the extra zone. Thoughts?

How hard is it to do my own radiant in the garage? I'm nervous to mess something up!

Just based upon percentages, the numbers are pretty close. The contractor probably has a base number for the equipment and then a per square foot multiplier.

I'd find out what "Insul Tarp" is and the specs on the product that you are receiving as part of the bid.

Insulating the slab perimeter and providing a thermal break is of the utmost importance, or the system will never keep up.

It isn't as simple as "how hard is it to do my own radiant". If you tie into the house system, they will probably void all warranties and blame any problems on you, whether or not you caused them.
 

Radix2

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I agree with the above ....That slab/room perimeter insulation being missing is worrisome as to how intelligent the quote is... the perimeter is the most critical place to insulate a heated room on a slab. Unlike the walls or the ceiling, here is a place with a direct conductive path to the frozen outside. Air is a very poor conductor of heat by comparison.

I don't know what insultarp is, ...but is sounds like some kind of bubble film snake oil...check the details out!
 
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Utahcarguy

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I agree with the above ....That slab/room perimeter insulation being missing is worrisome as to how intelligent the quote is... the perimeter is the most critical place to insulate a heated room on a slab. Unlike the walls or the ceiling, here is a place with a direct conductive path to the frozen outside. Air is a very poor conductor of heat by comparison.

I don't know what insultarp is, ...but is sounds like some kind of bubble film snake oil...check the details out!

I'm asking for the foam insulation price. Another contractor came in at $31,600, but didn't include hot water, mesh, glycol, or venting. First bid is looking pretty good! Also, #2 has fewer zones.

Radiant heating base bid:
Supplemental heat (KS 2004 toe space heater)
Total radiant w/supplemental heat.

Domestic hot water bid:
Install a Heat Transfer Products Contender model high capacity indirect water heater (or equal) to provide domestic hot water as a function of the heating system. The indirect water heater will have priority over the radiant floor heating system to provide rapid hot water recovery.
50-gallon Superstar Contender unit: $ 2,995.00 _____ 80-gallon Superstar Contender unit: $ 3,595.00 _____


$ 30,650.00 $ 950.00 ======== $ 31,600.00
glycol will provide some limited freeze protection to the system.
Glycol antifreeze option, add to base heating bid: $ 975.00

Under concrete slab insulation for base bid option:
This option includes installing approximately 1,900 sq. ft. of 1" thick R-5 insulation under the radiant heating lower level concrete floor in this residence. Building codes now require this insulation under slab on grade radiant floors.
Insulation option, add to base heating bid: $ 3,195.00

Under concrete slab wire mesh for the base bid option:
Install 6" wire mesh under the slabs of the above-described project. This wire mesh is needed to tie our tubing to. We will provide up to 1,900 sq. ft. of this mesh. If re-bar is used, this wire mesh may not be necessary.
Wire mesh option, add to base heating bid: $ 1,875.00

Gas distribution piping system:
We have not included the gas piping in this bid. We are assuming that the gas piping will be installed by others. We can offer a gas piping bid if desired.
Note: This bid assumes that the majority of this work will be performed in the spring, summer and fall of 2017. If this project slows down and we are working in the winter of 2017, our prices will have to be re-evaluated at that time to account for inflation.
Exclusions:
1 – Line voltage circuits to the mechanical room and possible manifold locations.
2 – Concrete or Gypcrete.
3 – Under concrete slab insulation and wire mesh (unless our mesh and insulation bids
are accepted. 4 – HVAC.
 
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Utahcarguy

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Are you referring to learning about the foam insulation? I asked #1 contractor about his bid. It does include slap insulation (code requires it) and it surpasses the R value requirement.

So the question comes down to this...do I want to spend $10k extra for radiant in the garage verse spending $1k for the alternative.

Sounds like if people could do it over, they would have done the radiant so if we can swing the price, we will go that direction.

Thank you all for your input!
 

Voi

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Under concrete slab insulation for base bid option:

This option includes installing approximately 1,900 sq. ft. of 1" thick R-5 insulation.

It does include slab insulation (code requires it) and it surpasses the R value requirement.

So is the 1" R-5 for the entire slab portion of the house? That seems awfully low, especially for your area. I generally hear that the labor for 2" is more or less the same as 1" and maybe even easier to install since it deforms less when walked on.

I'd be very careful about code minimum work in this area. I've seen very sloppy work when it comes to foam under slabs.

As far as the garage, the extra 10K does seem like a lot since the garage is attached and in theory is should just be labor, pex and larger boiler upping the price.

Since you plan to keep the space heated 24/7 through the winter hydronic floor heat seems to be an especially good idea. What your payback time would be vs a propane forced air or radiant heat system would be hard to predict. But if it is truly 10K vs 1K it would obviously be a very long time.

In my area the approach would be the opposite. Forced air in the house and hydronic radiant in the shop. But we have significant temperature fluctuations in the winter so radiant heat in a slab can cause over-heating problems. You probably don't have the same issues at 7000' in Utah.
 

danski0224

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Are you referring to learning about the foam insulation? I asked #1 contractor about his bid. It does include slap insulation (code requires it) and it surpasses the R value requirement.

So the question comes down to this...do I want to spend $10k extra for radiant in the garage verse spending $1k for the alternative.

Sounds like if people could do it over, they would have done the radiant so if we can swing the price, we will go that direction.

Thank you all for your input!

Your quoted specs only reference 1" insulation.

If you haven't bothered with the links I posted, I suggest that you look through the information.
 

73RR

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Install everything in the floor now and hook it up later if the budget is thin.

I would consider 1" of foam to be nearly useless. It will be easily damaged by foot traffic during the rebar and PEX install. Use 2" and be sure to have 6mil poly under the foam.
And yes, you could install the PEX. Buy the tubing on ebay along with a thousand zip ties and get busy. There are plenty of tutorials on the www to show you the basics including the links above. The tutorial says not to use air entrained concrete but you absolutely must use 'air' if your slab is exposed to freezing during the first six months or so.
It sounds like you could get some detailed help from several guys on here so don't be shy.
Now, a word of caution. Install the PEX under the rebar so that the contractor can't damage it either during the concrete placement or when he saw cuts the control joints.

Your bid numbers seem high to me but I am not in Utah.
 
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Dagny

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I have never put less than 2 inches of foam under concrete on an in floor job. The most heat loss is around the perimeter. It is very difficult to prevent loss by the doors. It is the most comfortable heat there is but there are losses and it is expensive to do right. winter last a long time here.
 

rburke65

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No disrespect for you, but if you had to ask where the insulation goes, you need to do A LOT more reading on radiant floor heat. Keep reading. Good luck.
 
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