Heating a pole building

[bobinyelm]

Need some practical advice-
(Sorry for the length of the post)

I just had a 32X60 foot shop built in W. Washington where the winters are moderately cold and very damp (It's rained 101 days in a row here in the winter in past years). The building has 4 10X10 insulated overhead doors, and a man door and 3X4 window in the office end.

I had a vapor barrier (6mil poly) placed under the 4" slab floor to limit moisture coming up through the concrete. The slab was a month old when the building was constructed over it, but it had standing water the entire time.

The walls and ceiling have 2 1/2" (uncompressed thickness) insulation with white poly installed as a vapor barrier on one side on the exterior of the wood framing, (raw fiberglass against the metal, vapor barrier in) with the metal siding/roofing screwed over the insulation, compressing it to zero thickness where the insulation is sandwiched tightly between the wood and metal.

The entire wood frame was absolutely water-saturated when the insulation and metal was applied (if you hit ANY of the wood, water splattered out), and a 2X6 2ft long "cut-off" probably weighs 15 pounds. I did't use a moisture meter, but the wood was basically fully saturated almost like it had been submerged in a lake just due to weather conditions at the lumber yard and build site.

I squeeged out the standing water on the floor a month ago after the building was closed-in, but edges of the slab remain a dark, "wet" appearance-impossible for the concrete to actually dry. I placed a 150,000 BTU natural gas torpedo heater inside for 2 weeks set to about 70deg (it's been 40 degrees outside), but obviously it introduces combustion moisture from its exhaust, but it is all I have at the moment.

The result is that the majority of the wood appears MUCH drier, but the floor stays damp from condensation (it gets a tad drier if I turn off the heater for 24hrs), and ALL of the wood, where it is up against the plastic vapor barrier where the insulation is compressed to zero thickness, stays WET to the extent water droplets form at the junction of wood and plastic and if I run the heater, enough droplets form that it literally rains down onto the floor. The insulated steel doors have enough metal edges that water condenses and fills the door section bottoms, so when a door is raised, a good cup or more of water (condensation) rains down onto anything under the door as it is raised.

I've been running a dehumidier inside the building and removing at least 15 gallons of water a day from the closed structure, but the wood/vapor barrier interface stays fully saturated. Part was complicated by the fact the builder didn't run the roof screws down tight enough initially, and left a dozen or two holes where the screws missed the wood open, so it rained into the roof, much of which probably saturated the FG insulation before I got them back to properly screw and seal the holes. There was enough roof leakage to where there were huge puddles and drip-drip-drip leaks in the roof

I just obtained a 100k BTU NG furnace I plan to install when I get the building inspection finished. (digging the required dry well and hooking all the gutters to it in cold and mud have held things up, and I can't get a final inspection until the mandated $3000+ roof-gutter water evacuation system finished), then I need to get electrical and gas permits to install the furnace.

My question (Phew-I am getting there!) is whether my building will EVER dry out, and given that it was built with NO ventilation provisions (as is the custom here), whether it can become a healthy working environment for my auto repair shop. I am also concerned that the FG insulation and wood may sustain permanent damage from staying wet so long.

I've always had stick-built shops, but local building codes have driven the cost estimates for a stick building of this size up to $80,000+, and that is just the shell, with no insulation, sheet rock, wiring, or anything, so I allowed myself to be talked into the cheaper pole construction that will end up at about $50k including the mentioned insulation and insulated doors (that they wanted $2500 MORE than the $80k figure above) in a stick-built.

I'm looking for comments from anyone with a pole building like mine in a damp climate to see if they ever beat the moisture problems I didn't fully appreciate when opting for the pole construction, and if 100k BTU of dry air from the furnace (with intermittent opening of the 10X10 doors, and introduction of dripping vehicles into the shop, since vehicles are seldom if ever dry here).

Also, is there any way to ventilate the building w/o losing all my expensive heat? I've thought of trying to build a ceiling at the 12ft level along the bottom of the trusses (spaced 12ft apart) to keep the heat down inside the shop area, but I am told that the trusses they used won't support a ceiling and also the calculated snow load needed in my area without reinforcement (adding plywood gussets over the perforated self-piercing steel gussets the truss manufacturer used might allow me to do a ceiling I was told).

Any suggestions or comments welcome!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Any furnace will have a vent/chimney for exhaust gases. Combustion gases will come through every crack they can find.

Your portable heater did add a lot of moisture. Propane is worse than NG.

Will it ever dry out ? Probably, but you live in a rain forest ...

20/20 hindsight. You should have had the entire interior spray foamed at least 1" before doing the insulation. That would make a much tighter structure and eliminate the moist air the is leaking in and condensing of the plastic.

 

[matt_i]

The non-vent heater is currently your worst enemy, imo, because there's nowhere for the condensate to go except onto the structure.

I would continue running the dehumidifier and at least 1 fan, be it a box or ceiling fan. You could potentially direct-pipe the condensate outside temporarily to avoid having to keepp emptying the bucket...run a garden hose underneath a garage door, etc. And keep the entire structure as closed-up as possible, iow don't open the doors for 6 hours and let in huge mass of humid air. And don't run the non-vent heater until your other unit is ready. I would still keep the fan moving even when permanent heat arrives.

I don't know about the site but I'd look carefully at grading to make sure it all slopes away from the concrete slab.

 

[bobinyelm]

Any furnace will have a vent/chimney for exhaust gases. Combustion gases will come through every crack they can find.

Your portable heater did add a lot of moisture. Propane is worse than NG.

Will it ever dry out ? Probably, but you live in a rain forest ...

20/20 hindsight. You should have had the entire interior spray foamed at least 1" before doing the insulation. That would make a much tighter structure and eliminate the moist air the is leaking in and condensing of the plastic.

Are you saying it's not safe to use a furnace with a pole building because they let too much outside air loaded with combustion by-products from the flue back into the building? I haven't tried to pressurize the building as we had done to our home, but it "looks" awfully tight, which is why I asked about adding vents of some kind to allow moisture to get out.

Yes, RE: moisture from combustion w/ the non-vented nat gas turbine heater. I am shocked at how much water came from it. I have used kerosene and propane turbine heaters in log and stick-built (sheet rocked) buildings in the past and never had (or noticed) a moisture problem before.

I just did some research (Google)and learned that producing 100,000 BTU (1 therm in NG terms) produces 2 gallons of water, so in 24hr running my 150k BTU heater (3gal/hr while running) 50% of the time (it was on a thermostat), that's 1.5 gallons of water per hour X 24 = 36 gallons per 24 hour day!! I guess the turbine heater is not a good idea compared to the furnace with a vented flue.

We are not close to being a rain forest actually-it's the capital of the state, and not like the Olympic Peninsula where they get 200 inches of rain annually. It rains a high percentage of the time, yes, but not heavily, and we only get 50 inches a year, though most of it falls in the winter. Admittedly, though, we don't see much sun to dry things out-only one or two sunny days a month this time of year. The fact nothing outside dries all winter certainly adds to the problem, however. We grow a carpet of moss on our roof that has to be removed annually if zinc isn't applied to inhibit it.

It's not possible to do the spray foam thing as you suggested, since the metal goes on over the roll insulation that is over the naked wood frame. There is nothing to spray against until the metal is on. I asked about skipping the fiberglass and urethaning the building from the inside against the metal and between the building frame, but they said it would cost $6000-$10,000 to apply foam to the 5000 sq ft of wall and roof (depending on how thick I wanted the closed-cell foam), which seemed out of the question. It WOULD be energy efficient, however

 

[bobinyelm]

The non-vent heater is currently your worst enemy, imo, because there's nowhere for the condensate to go except onto the structure.

I would continue running the dehumidifier and at least 1 fan, be it a box or ceiling fan. You could potentially direct-pipe the condensate outside temporarily to avoid having to keep emptying the bucket...run a garden hose underneath a garage door, etc. And keep the entire structure as closed-up as possible, iow don't open the doors for 6 hours and let in huge mass of humid air. And don't run the non-vent heater until your other unit is ready. I would still keep the fan moving even when permanent heat arrives.

I don't know about the site but I'd look carefully at grading to make sure it all slopes away from the concrete slab.

After looking up the moisture produced per therm burning NG (2 gallons per therm) I think you're right. Having used such heaters in the past in "regular" buildings with no condensation problem, I didn't expect the "rain" I created inside from my heater.

My dehumidifier has the provision to hook a hose to it, so I'll try running it on "continuous" with it closed up tightly.

There's no standing water against the slab, and there is at least 2" of the 4" slab exposed above grade. Maybe I should have painted the outside edges of the slab from the vapor barrier up with a water-proofing paint like "Drylock" to prevent moisture from migrating into the slab from the sides?

 

[Highbeam]

Nothing wrong with pole barn construction in our wet area. I'm just up the road in Buckley.

You've been adding water like crazy with an unvented heater, don't do that. You've also chosen to skip ventilation on your building which is not "the way it's done here" unless you want it that way. Leaking roof above a plastic faced insulation means you've got some amount of water trapped in the insulation that may just stay in there forever which is just as well. The wet wood is nothing. Minor amount of water. Be sure the roof leaks are fixed.

Honestly, open up the overhead doors and leave them open until everything dries out. Our air is dry in the winter. Keep rain from blowing in. Add no heat. A fan to help circulate and ventilate the inside (relatively wet) air is a good idea.

 

[bobinyelm]

I once upon a time lived in Sumner on Tapps, I (used to) know Buckley pretty well.

Yep-I had no idea HOW much water burning natural gas produces. I would have guessed a small fraction of the 2 gallons per therm (100k BTU, or less than the heat produced by a gallon of oil, or 1.25 gallons of propane, and having used them inside conventional buildings in the the past w/o moisture issues, I didn't hesitate to use it to warm the place until I could get a vented gas heater to install, which I did over the week-end (a new [old stock, never installed] 100k NG downdraft furnace I intend to install horizontally at the 19-11 foot level (one foot spacing to the lower truss chord).

I didn't "choose" not to install ventilation, really. I purchased a pole barn "kit" of all materials (down to nails and screws) from a local yard in Rochester, and had a local pole barn constructor put it up on my property. I figured the product they sold was well suited for the area, but your "that's not the way it's done here" is a clear indication Rochester Lumber pole barns are not well designed for the area, at least not without modification. I guess you just don't get what you used to for $20,000 anymore.

Having never owned a pole building before, I frankly honestly didn't even THINK about ventilation until I walked in and realized there was none! I would LIKE to install a ceiling if I could think of a cheap way to do it, then I would definitely vent the "attic" area.

Given that the building is completely open (no ceiling), any ventilation would **** in outside air from every crack (heater air would rise and **** in cold outside air to replace it) vent the entire building, and not just the "attic" as I am used to. Given that I plan to heat it as an auto repair shop, venting too much precious heat out sounds expensive.

The concept of insulation "sandwiched" between the metal and the wood frame is new to me, and a considerably less well insulated package than my previous shops had, so I'm not quite sure what to expect. I've had people tell me that I am going to be amazed how easily the building will heat, but then I can't see how an average of R-2 is going to heat at all!

I'd have done a stick-built, and insulated it well, but with the interior shear walls needed for earthquake protection by Thurston County codes that would have prevented the open concept I needed, and with a $20,000 concrete slab with multiple footings to support all the interior walls, the price was beyond consideration. Virtually NONE of the plans I submitted to the county were acceptable, and they wanted $3000 extra to just to get an engineer to modify and certify stick-built set of plans to my county's specification, so I gave up and went pole-building.

As far as trapped moisture, the constructors said that given that the roll-insulation (3ft wide?) will eventually vent any moisture trapped when it entered through the inadequately tightened rubber-washer screws, and the holes that were left unsealed (by the "new guy on the crew" who got fired after my job for causing multiple call-backs to seal the roof) where the junctions of the vapor barriers come together (the plastic edges overlap, but are not taped). We'll see that I guess. :}

Years back, we had a metal roof installed on our home with lots of empty screw-holes the builder never patched, but with the visqueen vapor barrier in view (no interior installed insulation between the rafters yet), we got huge, bulging water balloons under the holes we could see. We just popped them into buckets and taped them shut. In this case, the plastic vapor barrier is white, and reinforced, with pooches from the insulation, so no water balloons are actually visible.

On good days I'll crack the overhead doors as you suggest. The weather we've had recently has been basically rain every day with humidity averaging 85%-90% so I didn't do that.

It's supposed to be drier this week, so until I get the final inspection done (I have to wait for that until until the roof gutter rainwater evacuation system has been inspected), and furnace installed so I can work installing walls and electrics comfortably, it may dry a bit more I guess.

Thanks-
Bob

 

[theoldwizard1]

Are you saying it's not safe to use a furnace with a pole building because they let too much outside air loaded with combustion by-products from the flue back into the building?

Not at all !

Proper venting/chimney quickly dissipates combustion by products.

Heating appliances with >90% (?) efficiency typically have an outside combustion air inlet pipe. Lower efficiency use the air in the building and then send it outside. The consumed air is replaced air coming into you build through all of the leaks.

Your problem is high humidity air leaking into the building and then fitting the plastic vapor barrier.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It's not possible to do the spray foam thing as you suggested, since the metal goes on over the roll insulation that is over the naked wood frame.

NOT a good design in an area that has high humidity.

 

[bobinyelm]

Not at all !

Proper venting/chimney quickly dissipates combustion by products.

Heating appliances with >90% (?) efficiency typically have an outside combustion air inlet pipe. Lower efficiency use the air in the building and then send it outside. The consumed air is replaced air coming into you build through all of the leaks.

Your problem is high humidity air leaking into the building and then fitting the plastic vapor barrier.

The furnace I bought for the shop is an 80% efficient unit that uses a "hot" flue to the outside, and inside air for combustion, as opposed to the 93% unit installed on my house that uses PVC plastic pipes for both combustion air and flue gasses.

Given what I've now learned (running the current NG heater produces 18 gallons of water vapor per day into the building at a 50% duty cycle), and given the poor insinuative value of the compressed FG insulation between the metal skin and the wood frame, I guess it's not surprising. Add existing moisture from the saturated wood frame, and it was a done deal. Of course, as you say, the ambient dampness doesn't help, either.

After the final inspection, I plan to install the new furnace and hopefully that will end the problem. I'm not sure how many cubic feet per minute the combustion process will **** into the shop, but hopefully it will not create a problem.

 

[bobinyelm]

NOT a good design in an area that has high humidity.

Perhaps not, but that seems to be how they build virtually all pole buildings in our area.

i also do not like the fact the insulation blanket is compressed to zero where the frame/skin come together.

 

[nehog]

Are you saying it's not safe to use a furnace with a pole building because they let too much outside air loaded with combustion by-products from the flue back into the building?...

I don't think anyone would suggest that, and if your furnace is installed to code, that won't happen.

 

[Highbeam]

This area does not have high humidity. It rains a lot. Not the same thing. Outside rh right now is 47% at 34 degrees.

Bobinyelm, you seem to be accepting really crappy construction methods under a false excuse that "this is how it's done here". Well it's not. You had a crappy builder that took shortcuts.

 

[bobinyelm]

This area does not have high humidity. It rains a lot. Not the same thing. Outside rh right now is 47% at 34 degrees.

Bobinyelm, you seem to be accepting really crappy construction methods under a false excuse that "this is how it's done here". Well it's not. You had a crappy builder that took shortcuts.

OK, I am willing to admit that leaving mis-drilled the holes in the roof panels unpatched, and their not tightening the self-tapping screws all the way down on the roof (both allowing rain water in, with puddles on the floor and dripping from the ceiling) were crappy craftsmanship, but perhaps I am not really aware of pole building construction, so perhaps you could elaborate on why you say I had a "crappy builder."

Believe me, I am not taking offense or being argumentative. I have no personal connection to the crew other than I hired them to erect the "kit" that Rochester Lumber of Rochester, WA put together for me. They are a major supplier of pole buildings in the Thurston/Lewis Co area.

As they say I don't have a dog in this fight (though I may have paid for the dog).

So I guess I am sincerely asking is if there are some design or construction techniques I described that raised red flags of poor design, or poor construction craftsmanship (the leaky screw holes notwithstanding). If there is anything I can retroactively remedy at this point I will try to do it, and be grateful for the education (that I should probably have gotten BEFORE I contracted for the building).

Humidity Here-

Here is a chart showing the daily high and low humidity here in Olympia throughout the year (if it reproduces).


Here in this part of December the RH has an average daily HIGH RH of 98.5% and an average LOW RH of 77%. I don't have a hygrometer outside to measure the RH at my location, so I am quoting from the chart above. As I posted previously, nothing outside that gets wet really dries, and my white pickup that I have not used for a few weeks (and has sadly been sitting outside pending the shop final inspection) now has an overall green hue, with thick algae running down from the mirrors and door handles. The seam where the dually fenders meet the metal fenders is starting to grow moss you can pick out w/ a toothpick. The house/shop are in a large clearing and nothing is under a tree canopy.

Maybe I live in a micro-climate, but it is about how it was when I lived a decade in Yelm, WA (about 25mi away), so I don't think our weather is unusual here for Western Washington.

 

[73RR]

A couple of random thoughts....
•2½" of FG will not actually provide any useful insulation value. Luckily, it will also not hold a lot of water/moisture if the skin is sealed.
•The quote you got for spray foam was higher than I would expect. I recently had an average of 4" sprayed, about 3500sf for $4k. (My contractor travels the entire NW. Alternative Construction Concepts, Andrew at 541-390-5800)
You still have the option of removing the soggy FG and spraying everything. It will seal every nook and cranny. Spray foam also adds a certain amount of rigidity to a structure. The wood has to be dry before you spray soooo....next summer?
•Your wood will hopefully dry out before mold starts; 'dry' wood is around 15%. HFT has moisture meters.
•If you are burning 'something' it will require air. If you exhaust the spent gas then 'make-up' air is required. If the building is really tight (spray foam) then a dedicated outside source is needed.
Pole buildings are rarely constructed to this level of 'tight' due to the design/assembly of the parts and your bay doors are likely not that well sealed so 'leakage' may suffice.
Also, if this is a repair shop, what will you do to vent car exhaust? Do you have a roof exhauster planned?

•Just curious at this point, but for the money that you allocated for the building did you look at steel-arch structures?

•Concrete will eventually dry out if you have a properly designed and placed base because the poly you paid to install likely was damaged by the foot traffic during the install and pour. And only 4" thick slab? The labour you paid for would be the same whether it is 4" or 16" thick. A CY of concrete gives you 324 SF at 1" so another truckload would have added 2". And, just how 'wet' was the concrete when it was placed? Concrete finishers like it sloppy so it is easy for them to work but you will be paying for the low strength forever. Any rebar in the slab?

It sounds like you played general contractor (or relied on someone else who was only playing the role) and did not have the benefit of years of experience that a licensed general could provide. A Construction Engineer could also have saved you some grief in the planning but you might consider finding one now to take a look.

 

[bdk1976]

Honestly, open up the overhead doors and leave them open until everything dries out. Our air is dry in the winter. Keep rain from blowing in. Add no heat. A fan to help circulate and ventilate the inside (relatively wet) air is a good idea.

Highbeam is right on - was about to reply with the same advice when I saw he typed the same thing I was thinking.

 

[bobinyelm]

A couple of random thoughts....
•2½" of FG will not actually provide any useful insulation value. Luckily, it will also not hold a lot of water/moisture if the skin is sealed.
•The quote you got for spray foam was higher than I would expect. I recently had an average of 4" sprayed, about 3500sf for $4k. (My contractor travels the entire NW. Alternative Construction Concepts, Andrew at 541-390-5800)
That was for all the sq footage of your building (walls and roof)? I figure mu shop has 188 feet of linear wall at 12ft high (2256 sqft) plus 2200sqft of roof, plus 240 sq ft of eves, or about 4696 sq ft. If they filled the cavities to only 4" as they did in your case, that would be about $5400 to insulate my shop.

You still have the option of removing the soggy FG and spraying everything. It will seal every nook and cranny. Spray foam also adds a certain amount of rigidity to a structure. The wood has to be dry before you spray soooo....next summer?
I guess I could rent a sissors lift and cut between all the wood members from the inside to remove all of the fiberglass and vapor barrier, or I could just spray OVER the FG on the inside to the 5 1/2" depth of the 2X6s and avoid all the cutting work? I don't see what harm the existing FG and vapor barrier would do, especially if with summer sun, the moisture escapes. The wood only touches the dry side of the moisture barrier, though I guess the moisture COULD migrate past the screws into the wood and rot it out?
•Your wood will hopefully dry out before mold starts; 'dry' wood is around 15%. HFT has moisture meters.
I have a HF Moisture Meter-just haven't tried it yet since the wood was so wet. It "looks" dry now except where it is pinching the compressed FG at the vapor barrier.
•If you are burning 'something' it will require air. If you exhaust the spent gas then 'make-up' air is required. If the building is really tight (spray foam) then a dedicated outside source is needed.
Pole buildings are rarely constructed to this level of 'tight' due to the design/assembly of the parts and your bay doors are likely not that well sealed so 'leakage' may suffice.
If the building were urethaned, the only leakage would be around the 4 10X10 overheads, but of course one could calculate the CFM a furnace consumes at any duty cycle (depending upon BTU demand).
Also, if this is a repair shop, what will you do to vent car exhaust? Do you have a roof exhauster planned?
At my previous shops, I used a 4" hose w/ some end adapters that connected to a port in the end wall between the bay doors, so planned the same. I just pushed it over the exhaust pipe/s as necessary. I didn't see a need to try to get it to the roof. It's not like for moist work we run the engines very long at all.

•Just curious at this point, but for the money that you allocated for the building did you look at steel-arch structures?
Not really, to be honest, though I knew they were a possibility. I actually wanted a stick-built, byut my county highly discouraged the idea with required interior shear walls that wouldn't have allowed ANY wall to exceed 25ft w/out perpendicular walls coming off the main wall.

•Concrete will eventually dry out if you have a properly designed and placed base because the poly you paid to install likely was damaged by the foot traffic during the install and pour. And only 4" thick slab? The labour you paid for would be the same whether it is 4" or 16" thick. A CY of concrete gives you 324 SF at 1" so another truckload would have added 2". And, just how 'wet' was the concrete when it was placed? Concrete finishers like it sloppy so it is easy for them to work but you will be paying for the low strength forever. Any rebar in the slab?
I didn't consider that the 6mil black vapor barrier plastic would be rendered useless by the concrete people, to be honest. So it was another waste of money, eh?
An additional 8 yard load ($960 + tax) would have given me about 1 3/8" more thickness, but I was advised that 4" was adequate for all but heavy trucks (well above the weight of the type vehicles we would have in the shop). I contacted the 2 makers of the 2-post lifts I am considering (Atlas and BendPac) and BOTH said 4" was plenty for their up-to 10,000 lifts. As a precaution I did 6+ inches of concrete in the bay I am going to install the lift.
In Texas (where I was last) we put LOTS of rebar in because the clay soil moved around. The 3 concrete contractors I got opinions and bids from said in our area rebar wasn't needed over well compacted base on the sandy loam we have, so I went without it. They all said rebar at best keeps the broken pieces together.
I asked about fiber mesh in the mix, and my concrete contractor said it did nothing, but a former shop in Washington 20+ years ago w/o rebar but with fiber mesh never cracked, so I insisted on the fiber mesh mix.
I got a concrete contractor with the best local recommendations, but you're probably right that they used wet concrete that is flawed and weak. Again, I got taken I guess, but at this point, I have what I have.

It sounds like you played general contractor (or relied on someone else who was only playing the role) and did not have the benefit of years of experience that a licensed general could provide. A Construction Engineer could also have saved you some grief in the planning but you might consider finding one now to take a look.

OK, you got me. I hired licensed construction companies that both had general contractor licenses, but I didn't hire an professional engineer to design and certify the building.
Also, again, you're right: I didn't hire a general to supervise the two licensed general contractors who acted as "subs" on my job.
They (assembler builder and concrete contractor) both came highly recommended, and had worked together before. The supplier of the "kit" said they were among the ones that put out good work in our area, and I may have foolishly relied on that.
At this point, what would a licensed engineer be able to do? Are you saying I may have structural problems that need to be addressed?
I did what seemed like adequate research before having my shop built, but I am now inferring I ended up with something of an inferior product.

Not a happy conclusion for me...

 

[73RR]

•I have a large steel arch building, the last 3500 sf of foam was the 'finish'. ..been doing it in sections as $$ allowed.
•If you know that the roof is sealed then you could spray against the FG...but spraying direct on the sheathing is the best application as it then seals the face of the sheathing. I built a 30x30 garage 2 years ago to store a couple of cars in and I foamed everything. 0° outside and 35° inside, 100° outside and 70° inside....a giant picnic cooler.
•Every county building department has their own quirks about what they like to see. It does not mean that they get to choose the style of building that you are paying for. If your plans have a PE or AIA stamp they cannot stop you.
•Your poly may not be 'useless' but it certainly could have been damaged and that will allow moisture to migrate. You can test the floor later to see what you have.
•4" of concrete may, or may not , be acceptable, just like omitting the rebar may or may not be acceptable. What is under the concrete makes a huge difference.
Even with some rebar....linky.
In 'normal' situations, the rebar keeps the crack widths to a minimum as well as keep the adjacent sides of the cracks from shifting vertically.
•Sadly, depending on the state you live in, the quality of a license varies greatly. Some states do not even require a license for 'residential' work. The more important factors are related to how long has the guy been in business, what is his background, is 'he' actually on site working or just a bunch of guys he picked up at the 7-11......
•In all fairness to you and the hired help, what does/did the contract require?

In the end, as you say, it is what it is, unless it differs from the contract.
My concerns for you are more along the lines of proper hole drilling for the poles, methods of excavation, methods of soil and base material compaction, quality of the unreinforced concrete.....

My suggestion to have someone take a look is just an opportunity to see if you can make any appropriate fixes or head off any potential problems.

 

[bobinyelm]

•4" of concrete may, or may not , be acceptable, just like omitting the rebar may or may not be acceptable. What is under the concrete makes a huge difference.
Even with some rebar....linky.
Hard to say. I relied on what my County inspector, and the pole barn people/concrete people recommended.
In 'normal' situations, the rebar keeps the crack widths to a minimum as well as keep the adjacent sides of the cracks from shifting vertically.
Hopefully the fiber mesh I insisted upon, and the crack-control saw-cuts the contractor did in my finished slab will keep things to a minimum, fingers-crossed.

•Sadly, depending on the state you live in, the quality of a license varies greatly. Some states do not even require a license for 'residential' work. The more important factors are related to how long has the guy been in business, what is his background, is 'he' actually on site working or just a bunch of guys he picked up at the 7-11......

•In all fairness to you and the hired help, what does/did the contract require?
The contractors concerned (licensed, bonded, insured) have lengthy records and good recommendations, though the fellow that screwed the roof panels down (and drilled about a dozen "missed" holes) was incompetent, even with the contractor himself observing from the ground (he recently lost his right arm at the shoulder in a construction accident so tries to stay off roofs himself now). He fired the worked based on my job when he discovered and fixed it (worked w/ his son over two week-ends to make it right).

In the end, as you say, it is what it is, unless it differs from the contract.
My concerns for you are more along the lines of proper hole drilling for the poles, methods of excavation, methods of soil and base material compaction, quality of the unreinforced concrete.....
The holes were all 5ft deep, poles set on hardened concrete pads, then backfilled w/ concrete and gravel per county inspection (I verified all holes/poles). A foot of gravel base was brought in over graded sandy loam soil, and compacted using two vibrating compactors for about 3 hours prior to the heavy vapor barrier going down (I observed).
The concrete was ordered above spec requirement psi wise (I forgot the "bag" mix, but it was more expensive than the required mix; I payed for the concrete directly and spoke w/ the driver so know these facts), plus paid extra for the fiber mesh (opinions vary on its effectiveness of course).
Our county is pretty strict, and required several on-site inspections/sign-offs along the way on the building.
In fact, I just finished installing the required rainwater evacuation equipment the county required even on our 5ac lot (many places let you run gutter runoff onto the ground), including 6" continuous gutters, 4 3X4 downspouts, all emptying into twin runs of glued 4" PVC sewer pipes to a $400 sealed catch basin with filters, then into a 6ft deep drywell containing 12 yards of drain rock lined with landscape fabric, and it requires inspection before they will do the final building inspection, even (which I will call for next week).
Doing all but the gutters themselves, I have $3000 just in the evacuation system for machine time and gravel! This is a PICKY county!

My suggestion to have someone take a look is just an opportunity to see if you can make any appropriate fixes or head off any potential problems.
Not a bad idea, but it won't be a PE!! I can ASSURE you of that!
Maybe I can meet the County Inspector and discuss it when he's here next week.


We just PAID a PE $1300 to look at the way our home builder (we just moved in this year) did NOT follow the certified house plans for terminating our TJI floor joists at their ends (no support, no blocking-NOTHING like the plans showed), and that was for a 1 hour "look-see" and rendering a verbal opinion only (a written report would have been at least $600+ more since he charges $300/hr). He required a $2000 retainer up front to even come out and look, but because we told him we didn't want the written report at the end , he returned $600 of our money.

Turns out the builder violated our contract and their own plans (and the County Inspector sadly missed it), but the attorney we hired (another $8000 we paid out) said that since our BUILDER also hired a PE (they keep one on retainer), who retroactively said their method was OK (the joist manufacturer disagreed strongly, calling it "potentially unsafe," but they refused to get involved because they do a LOT of business with the builder and didn't want to risk the relationship), a court fight (with both engineers playing "he said, she said" at $2000 a day on my dime to testify would cost us possibly $25,000+ overall with no guarantee of a win (my attorney said I had a good chance of winning, but said there are no guarantees), and if we lost, we'd also have to pay the builder's legal expenses of probably $25,000 also.
The builder also poured our attached garage floor 12" lower than plans showed (at a level that could flood) after we paid $2500 EXTRA to have the whole structure raised a foot (they raised the house floor, but not the garage), but we weren't there when they did it, and the builder said it was our responsibility to monitor them, so it was "our fault," not his. Again, it would have been a court fight, so we paid the $8100 to have the garage floor raised, and alter the garage wall to raise the 3 garage doors that same foot, rather than giving the money to our attorney and getting nothing but excuses.

That's why I watched these guys carefully to make sure they did what they said they were going to do, though of course, if the whole shop was poorly designed, and the county planners approved it erroneously, I could still be in trouble, I guess.

 

[73RR]

Holy ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bobinyelm]

Holy ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish my wife were so subdued with her response.

In the end cost us almost $20 grand fighting and re-building (and we still have to retrofit supports under our floor joists), and we got NOTHING for it, except the company CEO called me personally to angrily tell me that it was MY OWN fault they poured the garage floor low, because if I wanted it as the brochures and plans showed, I should have shown up and snapped chalk lines at the height I desired. Their building manual the builder provided to us stated verbatim, "The garage floor will be poured to preclude the need of a step between the garage and the house," (so I saw little need to add it to the contract) and yet we ended up with a 17" step (and a garage floor that was BELOW driveway elevation). The CEO said I was unfairly taking the statement out of context.

The building superintendent on my job in a conference then made the mistake of saying (in front of witnesses), "We always check with the owner about the garage floor height, but you weren't around that day," to which I said he could have called or texted me. I reminded him of why we paid extra to have the structure raised 12", plus that he full well knew that inside 10 years I would be in a wheelchair and couldn't do steps, and would need a ramp for any steps, and you can't build a 17" ramp in a garage w/o making one bay totally useless. We were shown the door at that point.

The company's attorney THEN semt me a letter countering by telling me that we were only entitled to the specific rights spelled out in writing in the contract, and since the contract did not specifically spell out a written right to even SEE the garage floor during construction, I had no basis for a legal complaint. And, he said since I had not added to the contract in writing that I was legally disabled (though I still get around with only a cane), even though his superintendent may have known that, the company had no legally enforceable duty to consider it in any way.

Sorry for venting, but you absolutely cannot be TOO careful about checking and re-checking things in life, which is why I tried to cover my bases with the shop, and watch my shop crew as much as I could. They are honest guys, and were VERY embarrassed about the roof screw problem, which counted for something in my book anyway.

This home builder company (I'm describing) is the largest builder in the Pacific Northwest, and they are VERY aggressive. I found out from my attorney that they were once caught removing the rebar from foundation forms AFTER the building inspector had seen it in place, then poured w/ NO rebar. That was one court case they LOST (they had a witness to the rebar removal, and they had the walls X-rayed to prove it contained no reinforcement).

There's more, but I think you get the idea.

The CEO told me they would sue me for defamation if I ever mentioned their company name adversely in any way. I'm not sure if I were to say, "The company name rhymes with "A-Pair," that counts." But I've likely already said too much.

Bitter? Maybe a bit.

But it DOUBLE underlines what you said: BE CAREFUL when dealing with building, and get everything in writing, then watch every step to ensure that you are getting what you contracted for!

 

[Gooose]

If you have mositure dripping from your insulation and it looks like it's puddling your roof leaks period.
There shouldn't be any open holes in the metal. If screws missed they should have been riveted with rubber washers.
Sounds like your builder didn't have much of a clue at all.
I just help my old man build a pole building last year near Graham and have no traces of water.
Like I said if your insulation is dripping you need the roof addressed. With the entire building being insulated you shouldn't be having these issues.

 

[bobinyelm]

If you have mositure dripping from your insulation and it looks like it's puddling your roof leaks period.
After the builder returned and tried to patch all of the "missed screw holes" they could find (and I stopped using an unvented gas heater), things have improved. The rain of the last two days has created a few (fewer than 5) small puddles on the concrete floor. I found a couple of screws that missed the wood, and were re-angled to hit wood (they show from inside), which prevents the rubber washers from being compressed and waterproof.
There shouldn't be any open holes in the metal. If screws missed they should have been riveted with rubber washers.
His method was going to be putting dabs of silicone caulk on each hole, but I insisted he apply 3/4" round patches of 3M aluminum "tape" (it is 0.050" thick with adhesive back, intended as temporary patches in non-pressurized areas of aircraft skin-I got a roll of it at Boeing Surplus). Not as mechanically secure as bucked rivets, but the stuff is pretty bullet-proof, but of course it can only stop leaks that are "found."
Sounds like your builder didn't have much of a clue at all.
Unfortunately, I think the guy is a conscientious person, but he didn't supervise his guys well enough.

I just help my old man build a pole building last year near Graham and have no traces of water.
Like I said if your insulation is dripping you need the roof addressed. With the entire building being insulated you shouldn't be having these issues.

I have left the building unheated (by my unvented Nat Gas torpedo heater) to see it would dry, but the weather hasn't been conducive to much drying for a week now, and I am down to a couple or three small puddles (a few in inches dia). The wood next to/touching the white plastic insulation backing is still very wet to the touch. I suspect that it's because it was so wet when put up, and being cold at the junction (the compressed insulation blanket means the wood is outside temperature, and given that it's touching plastic, the water is trapped there).

The building passed final inspection Wednesday, so I can now go in and start wiring and installing the furnace (a 100,000 BTU downdraft/horizontal unit I will suspend horizontally from the bottom of the trusses).

As soon as the (vented) furnace is operational, I'll be able to cook the moisture out of the building and see if and where any areas may stay wet, indicating a still-leaking condition.

Unfortunately it was so raw and miserable in the building, I gave in and am again running the unvented torpedo heater to keep the interior at 45 degrees so I can work comfortably. In just 2 hours, the concrete floor is again wet from moisture from the heater (the concrete is 36 degrees, so it attracts moisture like a magnet, as do the areas of compressed insulation blanket at the wood frame. But it will allow me to get the furnace up and running sooner so I can track down the problem spots.

I can tell that I don't think I'll be satisfied with the amount of insulation given by the compressed blanket alone, both from moisture and a heat-loss standpoints. Given that I'll be bringing in a lot of moisture on soaking wet vehicles frequently (that will need to evaporate from them and the concrete floor), I'll need to reduce the unheated points inside that will condense moisture on them, and encourage rot or mold.

Given that you're in the same conditions I am, I am curious what you are doing for insulation and heat in your shop.

I am mulling over ways to add insulation, and possibly dropping a ceiling to the bottom of the trusses to reduce the heated volume of the building, but I need to do it at minimum cost (having already exceeded my budget dramatically), so am very open to ideas, conventional or otherwise!

Bob

 

[Gooose]

Talked to my dad about your building a bit. (he built them for 10+ yrs locally)
He said it sounds like the builder didn't have much experience building them and if your still puddling in the insulation you still have leaks. He said the insulation will never completely dry out with it being soaked and he's pulled roofs off before that we're never fixed and found the insulation full of bugs. Not good news but he said you should have your builder return and make it right.
He's pretty **** but said he would make them replace the insulation and hopefully the metal will still work with all the missed holes.
You gotta get the insulation dry and roof sealed up or your gonna always chase the water issues.

As for heating his building I made him a fireplace out of 2 55gallon drums welded on top of each other. The bottom drum is for the fire and the top is a heat exchanger, basically collects the heat and has tubes welded through it with a fan behind them to blow the heat through the tubes.
Insulation he has the same stuff you do on the roof and the walls are remnants from garage door company stacked in-between the girts(wall framing) his girts are T'd and they fit in there with about ½" gap around them at most.
With that setup and 2 ceiling fans in the peak it takes about an hr of burning and the shop goes from around 50 to mid 70s.

This is definitely a different setup than what you have going on but you still have issues if your insulation is puddling water. U can slice the insulation to drain it and they make a white insulation tape to help blend it.

Hope this kindof helps you out.

 

[bobinyelm]

Talked to my dad about your building a bit. (he built them for 10+ yrs locally)
He said it sounds like the builder didn't have much experience building them and if your still puddling in the insulation you still have leaks.

The builders came over today, in fact. They clearly acknowledge their worker on-roof missed a significant number of purlins w/ their screws, and didn't patch the holes, and in other places didn't tighten the screws enough to compress the rubber washers (allowing water to seep in). I therefore suspect a some, or perhaps significant amounts of water got into the bats.

The fact they terminated the worker based on my job points to that, in fact. They have been erecting pole and stick buildings for years, and seemed unhappy this one had a problem.

He said the insulation will never completely dry out with it being soaked and he's pulled roofs off before that we're never fixed and found the insulation full of bugs. Not good news but he said you should have your builder return and make it right.
He's pretty **** but said he would make them replace the insulation and hopefully the metal will still work with all the missed holes.
You gotta get the insulation dry and roof sealed up or your gonna always chase the water issues.

I think (reading your post) my ONLY chance will be to leave proposed ceiling and ceiling insulation (below the truss cords) off until the end of next summer when it gets hot (I still want to install a ceiling, though) and in the meantime cook the HELL out of the building with dry heat from the furnace I am installing right now.

My hope is that the dry heat from below the white vapor barrier will cause the moisture inside the roof insulation to evaporate, and when outside temps rise so that water heated out of the insulation doesn't re-condense on the inside of the cool metal roofing, the vapor will make its way out via the corrugations in the roofing.

The roll insulation batting is open to the FG on the top side, and the builder claims that there will be enough circulation from the bottom open corrugations to the top of the roof (the ridge cap is not "sealed") via convection to let the moisture out eventually.

They originally said that if need be, they WOULD remove and replace the roof insulation, but they have definitely backed off of that, saying it will be just fine, now. Frankly, with rain virtually every day, if they were to remove the roofing, we'd just get MORE water in the new FG batts.

As for heating his building I made him a fireplace out of 2 55gallon drums welded on top of each other. The bottom drum is for the fire and the top is a heat exchanger, basically collects the heat and has tubes welded through it with a fan behind them to blow the heat through the tubes.
Insulation he has the same stuff you do on the roof and the walls are remnants from garage door company stacked in-between the girts(wall framing) his girts are T'd and they fit in there with about ½" gap around them at most.
With that setup and 2 ceiling fans in the peak it takes about an hr of burning and the shop goes from around 50 to mid 70s.

I've built double barrel stoves like that using "Volksgang" cast iron kits (door, legas, flue connectors), and they work well. I have a single barrel kit left to use if I get a 55gal drum (less efficiency, granted), but when I was out of state a friend sold the hydraulic wood splitter I'd left w/ him (too heavy to move back then). I have at least 6 cords piled up outside (from clearing my lot), and can buck it w/ my chain saw, but my back won't allow hand splitting, so I'll use the NatGas furnace instead.

The ceiling fans would be a good thing until such time as I can get my insulation dried out and a ceiling installed (once I get them hopefully reinforced to support one).

This is definitely a different setup than what you have going on but you still have issues if your insulation is puddling water. U can slice the insulation to drain it and they make a white insulation tape to help blend it.
Maybe as soon as I get the furnace up and running, I should get it good and warm and poke some holes at least at the low point of each "pooch" to see if there is puddling.

I could eventually do the white duct tape fix, or after I install a ceiling, which will be it's own vapor barrier, the exposed insulation wouldn't be a big deal since it would be above the ceiling.

Hope this kindof helps you out.
I appreciate it. Right now I'm not sure how much water is up there, which is worrisome. I think "lancing the boils" at some point would be instructive. I
I am curious to see after a week of dry interior heat how the place looks.

Right now, using the unvented heater just long enough to get the temp up to 45 or so to make it more comfortable to work inside creates water droplets on the vapor barrier making the building unpleasant, and I certainly don't want to start growing mold on the framing.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Ironhorse74]

NOT a good design in an area that has high humidity.

You do realize the Pacific Northwest is not considered high humidity. It is actually way less humid than the midwest. It rains a lot which is not the same thing.

 

[matt_i]

If you have mositure dripping from your insulation and it looks like it's puddling your roof leaks period.

I would agree with this. If unheated and it rains and you have water collecting on the floor then you have roof leaks.

 

[Chief919]

I have a friend who got a great deal on a property that had a barn/shop that was pretty much as soaked as what you describe. A storm had blown the roof loose and they put a tarp over that blew off letting trusses get soaked, then scrap thieves store the copper pipe and left water running on the floor, and the drain in the floor got plugged.

After fixing the roof he finally got the wood all dry by installing a wood barrel stove with a draft tube that vented from the outside and constantly burning pallets all day and big logs for an all night hot flame keeping the temp at 90+. The dry heat from the stove and the fact that he drafted it from outside so it wasn't pulling moisture in let him get everything dried out in about 2 weeks.

 

[bobinyelm]

You do realize the Pacific Northwest is not considered high humidity. It is actually way less humid than the Midwest. It rains a lot which is not the same thing.

Someone posted that way up the thread, and I don't know where people get the idea it's not humid here in the Winter.

I have lived in CT, NJ, TX, FL, AZ, WA, OK,and AK (and traveled in all 50 states) and NOWHERE is close to as humid as Winter in Western Washington- NO WHERE (though parts of Hawaii and in Florida can be extremely humid, but the combination of cold and humidity there are different)!

Just look at the WINTER portion humidity in the chart below, where the average HIGH humidity is 98% and the Average daily Low humidity is 78% and tell me that isn't humid!

I have not lived in the Midwest other than Oklahoma, but I have spent a lot of time traveling through, and I do NOT remember it as humid.

Now, in the Hoh Rain Forest on the Olympics it's wetter (200+ inches per year precip), and here in Olympia (the Capital), we only get around 60 inches per rain (almost ALL of which falls in late Fall-Winter), but humidity wise, I think you're kidding yourself if you think it's not humid here.

Below are the annual humidity charts for Olympia, WA and Kansas City, which hopefully represents the Midwest.

I am not here to debate humidity, but I think it's fair to be honest about it factually when discussing building here.

That said, there are THOUSANDS of post buildings here, more than anywhere else I've lived (they are outlawed in parts of New England, so one cannot compare there).

Click to enlarge images below.

 

[bobinyelm]

I would agree with this. If unheated and it rains and you have water collecting on the floor then you have roof leaks.

I DID have puddles even when not running my unvented nat gas heater previously, though after they came back and patched the empty holes and tightened the rest, I am down to only two very small wet areas (that could be from old water leaking out of the vapor barrier).

Now, if I run the (unvented) heater, everything including the floor gets wet (the floor changes color from light gray to dark gray), and droplets form on the insulation vapor barrier. In a couple of days, the vented furnace should be operational, and we'll see what happens.

 

[bobinyelm]

The word from my Truss Supplier-

I got a call back from Truss Components, Inc, who supplied my trusses.

They unfortunately confirmed what the builder told me, and that is that anything other than a single sheet of plastic vapor barrier will cause my trusses to catastrophically fail.

I asked if there were any reinforcement techniques, and he said NO.

He said if I could give him a per sq ft cord loading (weight per sq ft of the ceiling liner and the blown-in insulation) he would contact his engineering section and they could give their opinion, and whether anything would strengthen them.

I asked where the failure point would likely be (mentioning that my builder said the weak-spots are the metal nailing plates holding the wood together), based on HIS experience of 20+ years in the business and he said, "The entire truss would collapse," which frankly I doubt.

He confirmed that they CAN build trusses to support lowed cord loads, but mine were ordered for NO LOAD. The kit supplier (who ordered from the truss supplier) evidently forgot to ask me, and I didn't know to ask.

I'm not sure how much heat a 6mil white plastic vapor barrier would retain (I'd have to add at least a few 2X4s between trusses to staple to, or fasten 1/4" X 1 1/2" lathe to hold it up) under the present roof (with the thin insulation batts I have). Maybe it would be worth it if I can't make my trusses safe.

Can anyone tell me what THEIR trusses of about my 32ft span look like w/ regard to lumber dimensions and configuration?

This is generally what mine look like. They are 32ft wide, and 6.5ft high. The top and bottom cords are 2X6, all the webs are 2X4, and the lower cord is spliced off center.

 

[kj_mustang]

Didn't see it written in this thread, What is the spacing of your trusses? I have 32 foot span trusses in my building and have similar trusses on part of my building. They are spaced at 4' and are not rated for a high load on the bottom chord. I have metal panels installed on them for the ceiling.

 

[Brandon314159]

I have 24' trusses built like that EXCEPT the center of mine is sheeted over with a piece of plywood on both sides.

I had to build a 2nd truss based on the first one (salvaged) so I liquid-nailed the whole thing together before using structural screws to lock it all down.

Really sad to read this story and hear about your woes. I and my family did EVERYTHING regarding building my 24x36 post-frame shop (Also PNW) using salvaged materials from a building I took down. The only part I 'subbed' out was a friend came and did the slab for me. I did all the prep work on the site (had a big fill with compacted concrete recycle) so I could really make it as I wanted it. Took forever but in the end I got what I wanted.

I reclaimed my roof (tin) and had to patch all the old nail holes. Got up there with the urethane black sealer and patched it all up in a couple hours. My new fastening schedule was screws w/ rubber washers. I missed a couple so patched those up. I put a single vapor barrier plastic under it to catch random moisture and provide a condensate block of sorts. It's not real pretty but it's dry (even unheated) and has a nice floor.

 

[bobinyelm]

Didn't see it written in this thread, What is the spacing of your trusses? I have 32 foot span trusses in my building and have similar trusses on part of my building. They are spaced at 4' and are not rated for a high load on the bottom chord. I have metal panels installed on them for the ceiling.

My trusses are doubled (on on either side of each vertical 6"X8" pole), with the poles being spaced 12ft apart, forming 5 12ft wide bays in my 60ft wide shop.

So, they are about 11ft apart, with the next truss 6", then another 11ft to the next truss. I have 2 gable end trusses plus 8 intermediate trusses between the gable end walls spaced as detailed above.

Between the 6X8 posts, there is no structure to support trusses except 2X6s that space the posts, and the steel skin id screwed to.

There are 2X6 purlins 16 feet long that span/overlap the trusses, and overhang each truss 2ft on each end. Over that is the 2 1/2" fiberglass batt, and then the roof skin.

Bob

 

[bobinyelm]

I have 24' trusses built like that EXCEPT the center of mine is sheeted over with a piece of plywood on both sides.

So the entire truss is plywooded on one side, or just the portion in the center that looks like a triangle?

I'd be happy to use plywood screwed to the 2 by's and construction adhesive as necessary if that would help.

The truss supplier basically said that weight bearing trusses are totally different, so even reinforcement wouldn't help, but I have never seen trusses that looked TOTALLY different than mine.

Perhaps they are just sensitive to litigation, and will only offer a suggestion AFTER having their professional state-licensed engineers certify the design.

I asked specifically what PART of the trusses fail if a ceiling is installed, and his answer that the whole truss collapses sounded unrealistic. I am SURE they have studied the failure pattern to know what lets go "first" as the building collapses, pinpointing the weak link.

Snow loads in my mind would tend to cause the trusses to spread apart, pulling the bottom chords apart perhaps where they are spiced off-center using only pressed-in nail-plates (or whatever they are properly called).

Weight on the bottom chord would seem to me to pull the chord free from the "W" bracing above. Glued and screwed plywood over all teh nail-plates would seem to me to prevent this, but I am not a structural engineer.

 

[kj_mustang]

11' foot spacing is really far. I don't think you can put anything on the bottom of those trusses. You really need a engineer to evaluate it for you, but my guess will be nothing attached on the bottom chord of the trusses without some major modifications.

 

[bobinyelm]

11' foot spacing is really far. I don't think you can put anything on the bottom of those trusses. You really need a engineer to evaluate it for you, but my guess will be nothing attached on the bottom chord of the trusses without some major modifications.

Yep.

The truss company said they COULD have provided trusses with my spacing to support a ceiling but weren't asked (my pole bldg supplier should have asked me, and I should have inquired).

Not sure how they would have been different-maybe I could ask that question and for a drawing just to see, then self-modify mine as necessary to best "copy" them though I'd lose engineering certification of course.

 

[bobinyelm]

Kind of a summary/conclusion for anyone following this thread.

I have almost finished drying out my building (it's taken weeks of furnace operation w/ a dehumidifier running, and I STILL get some drips of condensation from the ceiling, and the metal, factory insulated doors STILL rain inside when opened (I suspect interior moisture condenses and fills the lower channels, pouring out when the door is open and the channels are no longer horizontal). My concrete floor (poured 3mo ago) are finally turning a lighter color, indicating it is drying out (it was poured on a 6mil vapor barrier so all the water had to go UP, rather than down into the ground).

I have divided the last 2 bays of the 5-bay shop off to reduce heating costs until I add more insulation using foam board on the dividing truss and tarps fitted to the opening size below (11ft6" X 32ft). The unheated side is 12-15deg cooler now.

The 100k input Nat Gas furnace does OK for the main area (32X 36) but it runs a LOT when it's cold (25deg here is cold).

I plan now to apply 1/2" foam board (aluminum foil one side, plastic film on the other-about $6 per 4X8 sheet) under the 2ft spaced purlins between the 12ft spaced trusses and end-walls with large head roofing nails carefully applied, and tape all seams as I did on the dividing truss. I am hoping this will, when added to the full insulation blanket between the frame and the steel sheathing, make the shop more heating-friendly at minimal cost given the relatively mild climate here.

Comments or additional ideas welcome, of course.