Gable ladder framing

[Kaizen]

Another framing question for you guys. have my 30 foot trusses coming in a couple weeks. I am reviewing how I will do the 1 foot overhang on the gable ends. I've seen this width ladders just screwed to the end truss and I've seen people make 1 1/2 inch cuts out of the end truss and run a support back to the 1st normal truss. this I would think is better for support and no sag. but concerned about modifying trusses to do this. I'll have a lot of trim on them.

Also not including physical force to raise them does it make sense to do the ladders and sheathing underneath them on the ground? then lift them up as a unit reducing the trim work on staging later?

 

[SH7mi]

The 1.5" cut out is the way to go, the integrity of the truss is not compromised being a gable truss.
Don't install the eave sheathing on the ground, the trusses are not straight when on the ground and other factors involved such as matching the soffit and returns.

 

[Tejay]

Your gable truss should have been ordered 3 1/2" lower , then the roof ladder rests on it and is fastened to the first common truss but that's not the case im sure.

 

[kd3pc]

we notch the first trusses on the ground, but do not nail the ladder until the trusses are fully installed. 1 ft over hang we just go back one truss notch, for more than a foot, we notch two and nail to the third one back.

 

[matt_i]

Personally I would not notch any truss lest you irk the ire of your framing inspector and have to get a P.E. drawn "repair detail".

As above, the endwall truss should have been ordered 3-1/2" lower with respect to the roof plane.

Without ordering them as such, I would (I did) build up the ladder with GRK-RSS screws as these will bite into the end grain of 2x cross-member material. In my case i wish I would have done it on the ground, would have been somewhat easier as I had rigging to lift the entire built assembly up. But, adding it "in the air" wasnt that bad, just had to setup some clamps and blocks and some careful lifting of the assembly.

 

[Jawgarage]

Interesting and timely topic as my trusses were placed yesterday and the gable end ladders done today......nope....the end trusses were not ordered lower.....and nope.....no way would I modify the trusses at this point as the inspectors here require fully sealed truss certification plans which they use for their inspection......ladders were built in place with std lumber nailed in place up in the air and each of the rake boards rests on the 2x6 Eve board below for support. The ladder soffit will be vinyl and roof sheathing is 4 ply 1/2 plywood.

 

[holdover]

If your trusses aren't made yet , see if you can change to dropped gables ( 3.5" ) both ways of doing it will work, but it is easier using dropped gables, and somewhat stronger support of the overhang.

 

[Falcon67]

Notch it out from the inside truss or rafter

 

[Kaizen]

So dropping it lower...do you then fill in the rest of the truss with 2x4s? I haven't seen this done in any of my learning. Guess I will ask the inspector if they accept it.
Can I make the ladder thicker and screw the bottom piece to the bottom of both trusses?


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[matt_i]

Found a pic of the external ladder frame. Seeing it now I had setup a little temporary scaffold to help out. I had a 2x4 endwall truss and hung a 2x6 ladder frame.

 

[padroo]

When I built my garage back in the 80's my gable trusses did not have the 3 1/2 inch drop so I built the ladders on the ground , laid out and drilled a hole through both the ladder and the truss and pulled the one end up with a rope then pulled the other end up clamped drilled and installed several 3/8 bolts with flat washers.

When I built my house with 2 foot overhangs the first two trusses were 3 1/2 inches lower.

 

[Radix2]

For a 1 foot overhang, I would just apply the ladder to the gable. The stress is at the roof sheathing so make sure that it goes back several bays even with the stagger. The gable cannot droop unless the sheathing fails. You can also add framing on the inside of the gable truss to prevent any bending forces that want to roll the overhang down.

 

[holdover]

"So dropping it lower...do you then fill in the rest of the truss with 2x4s?" look at pic in post #10 which shows the ladder attached to the gable[/B]. With the gable dropped 3.5" the ladder will extend back to the first standard truss and attach there and extend over the dropped truss instead of being attached to just the face of the gable truss. usually the ladder is built with 2X4 24" OC running up the ladder (where the name comes from) If the overhang is slight it won't make much of a difference, but I use 24" overhang so it is necessary in my application. Pretty standard way of doing it here in my area for the last 40 yrs or so. Have the truss company make the ladder as well and using the dropped gable it is easy to slide it up and attach it. Good luck with your project..

 

[Majordisorder]

If you are only going 12" or less, just hang the gable rafter off the roof sheathing and place solid blocks at the roof sheathing layout. (min. 4' o.c.) This assumes using minimum 5/8 cdx. plywood.

 

[Kaizen]

"So dropping it lower...do you then fill in the rest of the truss with 2x4s?" look at pic in post #10. With the gable dropped 3.5" the ladder will extend back to the first standard truss and attach there, instead of being attached to the face of the gable truss. usually the ladder is built with 2X4 24" OC running up the ladder (where the name comes from) If the overhang is slight it won't make much of a difference, but I use 24" overhang so it is necessary in my application. Pretty standard way of doing it here in my area for the last 40 yrs or so. Have the truss company make the ladder as well and using the dropped gable it is easy to slide it up and attach it. Good luck with your project..

post 10 is just screwed on the end of the truss at the same height from the looks of it.
my question was I thought with a lowered truss the 2x4 from the first truss sat on top of the gable truss top and the ladder was still framed up on the outside but using the 2x to support it. so every x feet you'd have this 2x and I was picturing how to fill in between these 2xs......like blocking I guess.
or does the building side of the ladder sit on top of the gable truss?

 

[kbs2244]

you tube is your friend on this.
Lots on info.

 

[Kaizen]

you tube is your friend on this.

Lots on info.

Nope. Conflicting ways of doing it which is why I asked here.


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[kbs2244]

Not conflicting, just different ways of accomplishing the same thing.
Kinda like what was given here.

In the end, there is no "right" way.

 

[larry4406]

My company attaches the soffit to the gable trusses and runs the 1/2" OSB roof sheathing over it being sure to go back at least 2 full bays. We build the soffit on the ground prior to swinging the trusses including all cornice if schedule permits.

Standard practice here for at least 30 years of my building. Your mileage may vary.
Similar thread with pictures I posted.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300682

 

[pstnbly]

Your gable truss should have been ordered 3 1/2" lower , then the roof ladder rests on it and is fastened to the first common truss but that's not the case im sure.

^^^^^ This, all day long

 

[pstnbly]

Found a pic of the external ladder frame. Seeing it now I had setup a little temporary scaffold to help out. I had a 2x4 endwall truss and hung a 2x6 ladder frame.

That's horrible and will sag over time.

 

[rusty1]

I like the way Falcon 67 shows ,..if you do the ladder style, I'd suggest bolting (or lagging) them onto the end truss versus just nailing them, less chance of them sagging over time.

 

[RocketScott]

Notch the gable. Some truss companies will do it for you. 4' oc is standard, 2' if your worried about sagging.

Toe nail gable to the top plate 1-1/2" back from the outside edge
Cut notches
Sheet
Router top
Nail outriggers/lookouts to gable
Stand gable
Roll trusses behind
Plumb gable
Nail outriggers/lookouts to second truss


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[Kaizen]

My company attaches the soffit to the gable trusses and runs the 1/2" OSB roof sheathing over it being sure to go back at least 2 full bays. We build the soffit on the ground prior to swinging the trusses including all cornice if schedule permits.

Standard practice here for at least 30 years of my building. Your mileage may vary.
Similar thread with pictures I posted.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300682

so for 8 foot roof sheathing near the ladder and going back 2 bays (4 feet) I would only be staggering joints by 2 feet where the walls I did 4. that's acceptable?
saw your pictures thanks. looks like some 2x scrap nailed onto the trim of the ladder? I understand the one across both ladders at the peak. is the other pieces just to protect during lifting?

 

[Kaizen]

Not conflicting, just different ways of accomplishing the same thing.
Kinda like what was given here.

In the end, there is no "right" way.

.......but there is a wrong way to do everything. This is the biggest thing I've attempted and i'm finding so much gray area its great to have GJ to figure out the best thing.

 

[matt_i]

That's horrible and will sag over time.

Lol, it might. Obviously, I don't think so, or I wouldn't have built it that way. But, time will tell.

One detail not mentioned is that I didn't just tack on a 12" piece of sheathing for the roof overhang, leaving it all on the face-fasteners, I cut an ~84" wide piece so that the first piece goes all the way back to the centerline of the 3rd truss. And the staggered piece above and below is ~36" wide, again so there is a plywood plane which has to stretch out as well to allow bending. All nailed to schedule of 12" across the center of the panel and 6" oc around panel edges. Its been a few months since I was at that stage, but I couldn't really detect any concerning sponginess walking around on it while roofing or hammering #8s into the edges.

 

[larry4406]

... looks like some 2x scrap nailed onto the trim of the ladder? I understand the one across both ladders at the peak. is the other pieces just to protect during lifting?..

The horizontal piece at the peak is where the crane cable is attached as you guessed. I believe the others are stiffeners until the sheathing was put in place.

None of our houses have the gable height reduced by 3.5" to allow ladder overbuild from the next adjacent truss as others have discussed. What is shown in the pictures is the standard method in use by production builders in my area for well over 30 years.

I do like the dropped gable approach and am planning to do this on a shed of mine only because I have a set of left over trusses and by field building the gables I can make my shed longer by not using a truss on the gables.

 

[Tejay]

Where I am the drop gable is pretty much mandatory as the ground snow load is 150 # per square foot. Any other method will definitely sag

 

[Stuart in MN]

My garage has the 12" wide ladders simply screwed to the face of the truss, with the OSB sheathing run over the top, as mentioned by several other previous posts. Been that way for 20 years, no sign of sagging yet.

 

[Radix2]

Where I am the drop gable is pretty much mandatory as the ground snow load is 150 # per square foot. Any other method will definitely sag

Sag?

At that load, pretty much everything on here would be laying flat on the ground

Where are you?

I have seen some of the skiing areas of CO at 100psf, and in houghton Mi, where they get 350+ inches a year of snow it is only 80psf.

 

[Tejay]

Revelstoke BC Canada
GSL 150#
We get more snow than you can imagine

 

[lakeroadster]

So dropping it lower...do you then fill in the rest of the truss with 2x4s? I haven't seen this done in any of my learning. Guess I will ask the inspector if they accept it.
Can I make the ladder thicker and screw the bottom piece to the bottom of both trusses?


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On my barn the gable trusses were 5-1/2" lower than the other trusses. Purlins were attached to gable truss using Simpson Strong Tie Brackets, 2x6 blocking was added between the purlins.

Here's some photos:

 

[Toolfool]

Call your truss company and ask what is acceptable. An inspector can't argue with engineering (they do, but they won't win). We notch and it has never been a problem. I've occasionally seen gable trusses come with a 2x6 top cord to compensate for the notching.

 

[matt_i]

That's horrible and will sag over time.

Found this while trolling the archives. No saggy with 210# dude hanging from it