Questions about Shop Wiring/Breakers, and Outlets

[bobinyelm]

I will be starting the wiring on my 32X60 shop soon.

I used to wire houses when in college working for my uncle, a licensed electrical contractor, but that was 45 years ago and code has changed a lot, especially recently.

I can ask my assigned state electrical inspector (who will inspect my rough-in and final), but I want to be educated when I ask, and we are only allowed to contact our assigned inspector between 8am and 8:30am, and if someone beats you to the office, you have to repeat daily until you snag him, which is a giant PITA.

I've been reading the Code, but not sure if AFCI Breakers are required in detached shop buildings.

Are Tamper Resistant receptacles required in detached shops if installed below 5.5ft above the floor?

Where are GFCIs required in shop buildings.

The last shop I wired in WA was 20 years ago and none were required then, but our new home came with 15 AFCI breakers (some of which nuisance trip depending on what I plug into them), and TR receptacles everywhere (which make inserting plus tough, plus only the end of the plug blades make good contact, and some plugs are almost ejected by the units).

I am hoping that they are not required in a shop, but I read elsewhere that any building built on a residential lot (as mine is) is considered a "residential" building, so all house rules apply.

 

[kd3pc]

code and the local authority are two different groups and the local AHJ will set the rules.

ask the local guys...in my part of TN, tamper resistant are required across the board, as are GFCI in risky locations (bath, kitchen, exterior, etc). AFCI required in new residential construction - but not stand alone garage or out building.

The local AHJ will also give you details on what constitutes detached and residential. Here a breezeway or shared awning will make the garage "attached".

Putting a location in your profile will allow other members to be more strategic in helping.

 

[matt_i]

I'd just keep trying the inspector. They know the local rules which can supercede other broad-reaching plans. For example, MI residential code requires 1 outlet per garage bay. Which is diffferent than just one per garage per the IRC.

I'd plan on GFCI everything and -TR everything and AFCI nothing until you find out for sure.

 

[ddawg16]

Depends on which cycle of the NEC your area is on.

You can pretty much plan for GFCI's on everything.....and TR receptacles

Just do it. I have TR's in my house and don't have any issues.

One advantage of TR's....they keep the saw dust out.

 

[CNGsaves]

Consider just doing barebones to get Electrical signed off . . . . like Subpanel along with couple outlets and basic light fixture. Those couple outlets could be tamper resistant and GFCI. Then later finish out how you want it.

I for one would never put in TR outlets, not going to happen. Good luck.

UPDATE GJ Profile with a Location and GJ Sparky's can give you better details.

 

[sberry]

There is a lot of babble about local codes but for the most part amendments are rather rare. I am sure I will hear about it but they are. You need gfci on recepts. I am not exact sure but don't think afci are at least not under the last code, its worth knowing what version they are on. I doubt TR are either, this is not a living area.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I will be starting the wiring on my 32X60 shop soon.

I used to wire houses when in college working for my uncle, a licensed electrical contractor, but that was 45 years ago and code has changed a lot, especially recently.

I can ask my assigned state electrical inspector (who will inspect my rough-in and final), but I want to be educated when I ask, and we are only allowed to contact our assigned inspector between 8am and 8:30am, and if someone beats you to the office, you have to repeat daily until you snag him, which is a giant PITA.

I've been reading the Code, but not sure if AFCI Breakers are required in detached shop buildings.

Are Tamper Resistant receptacles required in detached shops if installed below 5.5ft above the floor?

Where are GFCIs required in shop buildings.

The last shop I wired in WA was 20 years ago and none were required then, but our new home came with 15 AFCI breakers (some of which nuisance trip depending on what I plug into them), and TR receptacles everywhere (which make inserting plus tough, plus only the end of the plug blades make good contact, and some plugs are almost ejected by the units).

I am hoping that they are not required in a shop, but I read elsewhere that any building built on a residential lot (as mine is) is considered a "residential" building, so all house rules apply.

This all depends on where youre located and what NEC cycle has been adopted and whether your AHJ has local amendments.

U said you fall under state codes so if u give us your location one of us can look up what code cycle u are on and go from there.

 

[JJThrasher]

Consider just doing barebones to get Electrical signed off . . . . like Subpanel along with couple outlets and basic light fixture. Those couple outlets could be tamper resistant and GFCI. Then later finish out how you want it.

Sounds like a shop I know of. Panel, 3 outlets, and 6 lights in a 30x40 and she was good to go. Everything else was done later.

 

[matt_i]

Consider just doing barebones to get Electrical signed off . . . . like Subpanel along with couple outlets and basic light fixture. Those couple outlets could be tamper resistant and GFCI. Then later finish out how you want it.

Sounds like a shop I know of.

• 15A circuit servicing: 2 overhead bulbs in a 25x40, 1 in the attic space on a pull chain, 9pc of 8W LED soffit lamps to comply with exterior lighting for each man-door.

• 20A circuit servicing: 3 outlets, 1 box per bay, 1 GFI+TR outlet controlling another double gang -TR box.

This passed final inspection and has proven useful for powering stuff to finish off the inside.

 

[bobinyelm]

This all depends on where youre located and what NEC cycle has been adopted.

U said you fall under state codes so if u give us your location one of us can look up what code cycle u are on and go from there.

Thanks-

I am in (Olympia) Washington in Thurston County so am under state code and electrical inspections (towns have their own inspectors for those inside city limits).

Unfortunately actually meeting w/ building or other inspectors can be tough. To save $$ employees have been cut to the bone and fees raised ( just my building permits for house and shop approached $30k, but inside city limits it would have been $20k more).

Times are tough.

 

[Chief919]

Thanks-

I am in (Olympia) Washington in Thurston County so am under state code and electrical inspections (towns have their own inspectors for those inside city limits).

Unfortunately actually meeting w/ building or other inspectors can be tough. To save $$ employees have been cut to the bone and fees raised ( just my building permits for house and shop approached $30k, but inside city limits it would have been $20k more).

Times are tough.

$30,000 just for permits? Holy ****.

I was mad about $600!

 

[sberry]

I bet that's 3K

 

[OldToolz]

You should be fine with regular heavy duty 20amp.outlets an Gfic gets puts in a 4ft area where there's water by a utility sink .

 

[bobinyelm]

I bet that's 3K

My building permits alone were over $18k, and I had to pay a $10,000 school system mitigation fee since one day a family w/ kids might buy my house and stress the school system (I got that answer when I pointed out that at our age we are beyond having kids).

Those inside the Olympia City Limits must ALSO pay additional "Impact" permit fees of about $15,000 (beyond what I paid) since the city is actively discouraging new homes. I am in the County (not inside any city limits) so got away "cheap." The $15,000 in ADDITIONAL fees is called an "Impact Fee" for adding to the cost of running the city, is $3432 for Building Impact, $5437 in City Park Impact Fees, $5240 School Impact Fee. See: file:///C:/Users/Bob/Downloads/Impact-Fees.pdf

All County Permit fees include a set time for their consideration by the Planning Department. If they need more time to come to a decision, they bill the applicant an additional $145 for every hour spent in studying or considering whether to approve the permit.

I have paid $36,000 in direct sales taxes levied on the cost of developing our property (house, shop, excavation, power delivery, well, and septic).

In addition, our county is trying to pass ANOTHER $42,000 tax on every new building permit to be used to encourage survival of the Mazama Pocket Gopher (which is considered a pest in some other places).

See:
Thurston County invents a $42,000 Gopher Tax for New Homeowners ...
https://www.wethegoverned.com › Washington Counties › Thurston County
Mar 1, 2016 - Pocket Gophers are Pests, But Govt Can Still Find a Way to Tax them ... tax dollars from prospective new homeowners in Washington State. ... would be in addition to any other fees, permits, taxes, or other costs that might be levied ...
https://www.wethegoverned.com/thurston-county-invents-42000-gopher-tax-for-new-homeowners/

If that link doesn't work, click:

http://www.progressivestoday.com/paid-gopher-tax/



Truly I WISH it was $3K!

 

[checkthisout]

If L&I is doing your inspection then you're on the 2014 code cycle.

You don't need AFCI's but you need GFCI's on all your plugs.

No tamper resistant.

1 outlet per car space.


At the end of the day, e-mail the inspector assigned to your permit. Depending on which way the wind blows, they may consider a detached garage a "dwelling" They will answer.

 

[sberry]

A gopher tax. I needed a laugh but I bet it really isn't funny. I would be trapping a bunch for release at a council meeting, here, you can have mine.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A gopher tax. I needed a laugh but I bet it really isn't funny. I would be trapping a bunch for release at a council meeting, here, you can have mine.

Ahahahhahaha

 

[bjcouche]

Per the latest code cycle, for a DETACHED garage you'll need:
Tamper Resistant outlets everywhere.
GFCI protected outlets wherever you have a concrete floor.
Some type of minimum interior lighting.
Some type of exterior lighting over your man door.
A couple outlets within the garage.

I believe that you are excluded from the AFCI requirement because the garage is detached. If your garage is attached to your house, then you're stuck with AFCI on every 15 and 20A circuit, outlets and lights.

My 40X64 shop was built 4 years ago. I put in 2 20A circuits for a couple outlets on each circuit. I had GFCI protection and all TR outlets. A 15A circuit had a 2 head flood light installed INSIDE the garage by the man door with a switch alongside the door. Then a light outside the man door as well. That was all I had for wiring during the inspection. The inspector checked lots of stuff but was particular about verifying all outlets were TR and GFCI protected.

I believe that this is all that's required per the latest NEC, however specific areas have additional requirements.

Brian

 

[bobinyelm]

Per the latest code cycle, for a DETACHED garage you'll need:
Tamper Resistant outlets everywhere.
GFCI protected outlets wherever you have a concrete floor.
Some type of minimum interior lighting.
Some type of exterior lighting over your man door.
A couple outlets within the garage.

I believe that you are excluded from the AFCI requirement because the garage is detached. If your garage is attached to your house, then you're stuck with AFCI on every 15 and 20A circuit, outlets and lights.

My 40X64 shop was built 4 years ago. I put in 2 20A circuits for a couple outlets on each circuit. I had GFCI protection and all TR outlets. A 15A circuit had a 2 head flood light installed INSIDE the garage by the man door with a switch alongside the door. Then a light outside the man door as well. That was all I had for wiring during the inspection. The inspector checked lots of stuff but was particular about verifying all outlets were TR and GFCI protected.

I believe that this is all that's required per the latest NEC, however specific areas have additional requirements.

Brian

Thanks, Brian

I will go to the electrical inspector better educated Monday or Tuesday to get the fine points pinned down, then. (Like whether ceiling mounted receptacle at the 12ft level that the 20 4ft LED lighting units plug into or 10ft garage door openers plug into need to be GFI).

I think I read outlets above 5.5ft above the floor do not need to be TR at least, so if I need to GFI the 12ft ceiling, at least the outlets will be cheaper.

I was hoping that maybe TR outlets wouldn't be required in a shop, but I guess children could wander into shops and try to stick nails into the outlets.

They effectively double the price of the GFCI outlets ($11 to $20 ea) just to add the TR feature-ouch, since I will have 30 115v outlets on at least 6 circuits..

I guess 200v wall outlets (for welders, etc) are OK w/o tamper protection since I don't see any available (nor are there GFIs for 220v circuits). 220v GFIs are $$$. Also no TR receptacles around for 50a 220v I've seen.

 

[JeffXD]

I live in the country. We built our house 4 years ago and no permits were required, so I paid $0 for that. Only thing the county cared about is our septic system. We did pay for 3rd party inspections along the way as a CYA measure.

 

[Norcal]

I live in the country. We built our house 4 years ago and no permits were required, so I paid $0 for that. Only thing the county cared about is our septic system. We did pay for 3rd party inspections along the way as a CYA measure.

There are a lot of areas that only require septic inspections, otherwise just set your forms & go, but that does lead to some funky wiring, like running 3 conductor triplex (2 insulated, 1 bare aluminum conductor) in steel studs, the list goes on. Wired a house in Arkansas w/o any inspections, although the Co-op would not accept a UFER grounding electrode, only accepted ground rods.

 

[wintermute]

When I converted my carport to a garage in '09 I needed TR outlets everywhere and GFI for each receptacle circuit. I got around this by placing GFIs at the head of each circuit. I probably could have used GFI breakers, but those can be really inconvenient to reset.

Also, my homeowner's electrical permit cost ~$45 through L&I

I'm hoping for a similar experience with my new house, which also needs a carport conversion. And also has a detached shop with no power yet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks, Brian

I will go to the electrical inspector better educated Monday or Tuesday to get the fine points pinned down, then. (Like whether ceiling mounted receptacle at the 12ft level that the 20 4ft LED lighting units plug into or 10ft garage door openers plug into need to be GFI).

I think I read outlets above 5.5ft above the floor do not need to be TR at least, so if I need to GFI the 12ft ceiling, at least the outlets will be cheaper.

I was hoping that maybe TR outlets wouldn't be required in a shop, but I guess children could wander into shops and try to stick nails into the outlets.

They effectively double the price of the GFCI outlets ($11 to $20 ea) just to add the TR feature-ouch, since I will have 30 115v outlets on at least 6 circuits..

I guess 200v wall outlets (for welders, etc) are OK w/o tamper protection since I don't see any available (nor are there GFIs for 220v circuits). 220v GFIs are $$$. Also no TR receptacles around for 50a 220v I've seen.

all 120v outlets in a garage are required to be GFCI protected.

I assume u meant 240v outlets. Yes there is no TR 240v outlets. However there is 240v GFCI breakers.

But 240v outlets arent required to be GFCI protected or TR.

 

[bczygan]

Pocket gophers!

Mmmmmm!!!........Good eating!

I'd bring a stew as a present for the building department.

 

[bobinyelm]

I live in the country. We built our house 4 years ago and no permits were required, so I paid $0 for that. Only thing the county cared about is our septic system. We did pay for 3rd party inspections along the way as a CYA measure.

Yep.

We left Waxahachie, TX not too long ago, and the only reason they wanted me to get a permit to build my shops (I think the fees were like $10) was to make sure I was on my own property, and wasn't building on top of our septic system.

NO inspections were required.

This is completely different here. Just legally taking care of the water from our roof gutters cost us $7000 with two huge dry wells, hundreds of feet of pipe, special catch basins, and multiple inspections, not to mention truck loads of gravel. If I hadn't done most of the work (renting and running the backhoe and trencher equipment, burying the pipe, back filling, etc) we'd have likely topped $10 grand jut to deal w/ rainwater on our 5 acres. It's just the cost of doing business in different states I guess. Our state is very ecology oriented. It's unlawful to cook or BBQ hamburgers using wood due to emissions and particulates released into the atmosphere, for instance. Campfires and such are prohibited as well, of course. Different strokes.u

 

[acer66]

Per the latest code cycle, for a DETACHED garage you'll need:
Tamper Resistant outlets everywhere.
GFCI protected outlets wherever you have a concrete floor.
Some type of minimum interior lighting.
Some type of exterior lighting over your man door.
A couple outlets within the garage.

I believe that you are excluded from the AFCI requirement because the garage is detached. If your garage is attached to your house, then you're stuck with AFCI on every 15 and 20A circuit, outlets and lights.

I believe that this is all that's required per the latest NEC, however specific areas have additional requirements.

Brian

I thought if you have areas where gfci protection for receptacles is required like kitchen, garage etc. you do not need afci's.

 

[jim111]

I thought if you have areas where gfci protection for receptacles is required like kitchen, garage etc. you do not need afci's.

Under 2014 Nec everything in kitchen 120v needs arc fault. Not so in garage

 

[acer66]

Under 2014 Nec everything in kitchen 120v needs arc fault. Not so in garage

Thanks, I must have mixed that up with a prior NEC version.
Easy to do for me since I am binge watching Mike Holt on youtube.

 

[MikeF2316]

...

I was hoping that maybe TR outlets wouldn't be required in a shop, but I guess children could wander into shops and try to stick nails into the outlets.

They effectively double the price of the GFCI outlets ($11 to $20 ea) just to add the TR feature-ouch, since I will have 30 115v outlets on at least 6 circuits..

...

GFCI outlets can be wired so they protect downstream "normal" outlets on the same circuit. So you only need one per circuit.

 

[happy2rv]

There is a lot of babble about local codes but for the most part amendments are rather rare. I am sure I will hear about it but they are. You need gfci on recepts. I am not exact sure but don't think afci are at least not under the last code, its worth knowing what version they are on. I doubt TR are either, this is not a living area.

I don't think they're all that rare. Where I live, I believe we have a couple of dozen amendments to the "adopted" code. However, I think it is extremely common that various locations are on different versions of the code. For instance, we are on the 2003 version for all codes except electrical and for that we are on 2002 with specific amendments called out. Who knew there were so many codes either? International building code, International Residential code, International Energy Conservation Code, International Existing Building Code, International Fire Code, International Mechanical Code, International Plumbing Code, International Fuel Gas Code, National Electrical Code, Life Safety Code.

Yep.

We left Waxahachie, TX not too long ago, and the only reason they wanted me to get a permit to build my shops (I think the fees were like $10) was to make sure I was on my own property, and wasn't building on top of our septic system.

NO inspections were required.

This is completely different here. Just legally taking care of the water from our roof gutters cost us $7000 with two huge dry wells, hundreds of feet of pipe, special catch basins, and multiple inspections, not to mention truck loads of gravel. If I hadn't done most of the work (renting and running the backhoe and trencher equipment, burying the pipe, back filling, etc) we'd have likely topped $10 grand jut to deal w/ rainwater on our 5 acres. It's just the cost of doing business in different states I guess. Our state is very ecology oriented. It's unlawful to cook or BBQ hamburgers using wood due to emissions and particulates released into the atmosphere, for instance. Campfires and such are prohibited as well, of course. Different strokes.u

I guess that's why we have different states. This seems more like tyranny than protection to me. I've often said there WAS enough money to entice me to move to places like California or Washington, but nobody in their right mind would pay it. However, every day I'm more and more convinced that there really isn't enough. I can't imagine life without REAL barbecue much less $30K in permit fees. I didn't spend much more than that to have my detached brick workshop/garage built. I know everyone's circumstances are different and there must be something worthwhile compelling you to live there, but I would be looking to move somewhere that respects people and their rights.

 

[checkthisout]

Yep.

We left Waxahachie, TX not too long ago, and the only reason they wanted me to get a permit to build my shops (I think the fees were like $10) was to make sure I was on my own property, and wasn't building on top of our septic system.

NO inspections were required.

This is completely different here. Just legally taking care of the water from our roof gutters cost us $7000 with two huge dry wells, hundreds of feet of pipe, special catch basins, and multiple inspections, not to mention truck loads of gravel. If I hadn't done most of the work (renting and running the backhoe and trencher equipment, burying the pipe, back filling, etc) we'd have likely topped $10 grand jut to deal w/ rainwater on our 5 acres. It's just the cost of doing business in different states I guess. Our state is very ecology oriented. It's unlawful to cook or BBQ hamburgers using wood due to emissions and particulates released into the atmosphere, for instance. Campfires and such are prohibited as well, of course. Different strokes.u

Not defending the outrageous fees but Texas really has no ecology to protect VS Western Washington.

Runoff containment has many options but if you have 5 acres and could keep the end of the dispersion trenches 50' from the property line, you shouldn't have had to have built drywells although I do understand it can be difficult to take advantage of the many options after placing the house, the septic drainfield and reserve area.

 

[sberry]

What are some amendment's to the electric? That is already a couple versions behind. I havnt worked everywhere in Michigan but can't recall ever seeing one.

 

[happy2rv]

I believe most of the amendments pertain to the IBC, not the electrical code. I don't have them in front of me. I know they don't currently require AFI, but I don't know if that was part of the 2002 NEC. My point was that there are jurisdictions that have amendments and certainly many locations follow different versions even if there aren't amendments.

 

[Norcal]

According to this link at Mike Holt: http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php

Washington
The 2014 National Electrical Code, with Washington State amendments, becomes effective on July 1, 2014

Now what the amendments are, have no idea.

 

[checkthisout]

http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Electrical/FeePermInsp/PermitInspect/

Note: The 2014 National Electrical Code (NEC) is adopted effective July 1, 2014. Permits purchased after June 30, 2014, will be inspected using the 2014 NEC.

There are no amendments. It's straight down the line 2014 NEC.

 

[sberry]

I have only pulled permits in a couple local areas. I never looked for locals here but we are under state here, some larger adjacent counties have their own inspectors but only work I ever did in them were simple service upgrades.
I know a retired insp from a county, will have to ask. He is a member of engine club, we do a zit load of installs, I asked him about permits and he said we pull a yearly. He seemed kind of surprised I knew the process.

 

[sberry]

Michigan is highly inspected. We do have homeown permits though lets us squeak by a little. I don't have a lic, I don't really do outside work other than helping a bud on occasion but havnt had a fail in decades, I can't or don't want the hassle of reinspection so I follow it down the line.
I probably couldn't pass a masters anyway or would have to really study and even then maybe not.
I had a chance back in the day before they really clamp down on the paper trail for the hours, that day is past. Same for plumma, I should have got both when I knew guys.

 

[Dagny]

30,000 that's insane.

 

[bobinyelm]

30,000 that's insane.

May be, but if they pass the Gopher tax, it will be $72,000 in permits before you get to move a teaspoon of dirt or get a permit.

I applied for my shop permit after my house was built and given a C/O, but before I had really graded my driveway or even added enough gravel to keep it from being a mud pit in rainy season.

I soon found out that was a grave mistake, because after applying for a permit, I was legally prevented from doing anything with my house driveway until the shop permit was approved or denied (since the shop is on the same lot as the house). It took 4 months to get the shop permit because the State and US Fish and Wildlife biologists needed to do 3 Gopher Inspections (they can only be done July-Oct because the little buggers hibernate) to make sure the gophers weren't "hiding" during 2 of the inspections. Turned out the gopher inspection and permit I passed to build my house expired a month before I applied for the shop permit, so the inspections needed to be done again. Uggh!

Once my shop permit was approved, I was allowed to order gravel and make the driveway around my house passable at least. SO many rules that's it's awfully easy to run afoul of one or two.

Thing is that lots of people are STILL building houses here, so the laws are not stopping people from moving in.

While I loved the Texas attitudes (very similar to my decade in Alaska), I just couldn't take the heat and flat terrain. The cost of living was 25% cheaper in Texas, and the equivalent house there was 40% cheaper. Gasoline was 50-65 cents a gallon cheaper, too. Regular is now $2.79 and up here, but in California it's over $3.00 in many places, so unless they pass the additional 50 cent a gallon tax they want here, I'll not complain about fuel prices.

I am going to L&I tomorrow, so we'll see what they say about requirements.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

O my.

Thats insane.

And here i thought California was the worst when it came to costs to build a house
after reading THIS article....

Is there a housing shortage up there?

Sounds like mostly upper middle class are the only ones that could afford to build up there.