Craftsman 5198. Who made these awesome vises!!

[drivesitfar]

ALL: I know some of you have a ton of information about the 5198 and that 519x Craftsman series vises. it might be one of the best user vises made in my opinion for a vise of this size.

I just put the 5198 on the title, but really this is about the 5191, 5195, 5196, 5197 and the 5198.

for years nobody here on GJ had seen a 5198 except in a catalog and then OLDIE found one that Big Caddy ended up buying and restoring. since then i think there has been 6 found by members and restored.

maybe some of you that own a 519x vise can post up a few pictures. i only have a 5196 left, but i've owned them all except for the 5198. i kept this 5196 cause it came from a really nice old 80 year old i know and it's still got it's original paint.

Let's post up some information on this thread so maybe we can figure out a solution to this commonly asked question.

my thoughts is ROCK ISLAND made them one becuase of the quality and the dates are stamped on the slides like Rock Island vises were. also the jaws are similar to Rock Island vises.

the vise nut has a nice holder that resembles a Reed so that could be the maker. the handle looks like a Starrett and the split vise nut has a Starrett look to it with the screw adjustment.

there used to be talk that Columbian was the maker cause Columbian made vises for Sears (Craftsman) during the years the 519x's were made. i'm not saying Columbian couldn't have made these, but highly doubt it.

another thought is these 519x's were made in Japan or maybe Taiwan and by who. anybody know for certain please tell us and give us some hard facts PLEASE.

or what do you think??

i'll post up more pictures as i find them in my old ailing laptop and if you have any to post please post them. here's my 5196 with original paint.

 

[honza.vosalik]

This is my 5196. Purchased it locally last year. Dated 10-48.

 

[drivesitfar]

HONZA: you've had and maybe own a few other nice vises and how does your 5196 compare to those?

thanks for the picture

 

[honza.vosalik]

HONZA: you've had and maybe own a few other nice vises and how does your 5196 compare to those?

thanks for the picture

Drivesitfar, I sold most of the other vises and kept the 5196 mounted on my workbench, so that shows how much I like it I just didn't really need the other vises. I love the design and vintage looks of the 5196.

To compare:

Charles Parker 995 - This one was too big/heavy for my smaller projects. It was a cool vise, but some guys warned me not to use the anvil.

Hollands 53 1/2H - I completely restored it, but it was too shiny to use it

Wilton 930 - I restored it and am keeping it for my boys.

Wilton C0 - loved it, size vise similar to the 5196. Plus it has pipe jaws. I just preferred 5196 over this one as I have so much Craftsman stuff in my garage. The C0 is an awesome vise though!



...and yes, still hoping to come across other 519x vises.

 

[honza.vosalik]

I also doubt they would import the 519x from Taiwan or Japan in 1948...

 

[bluebolt]

How about we compare the numbers cast into the main nut and the swivel base for similarities? I don't have a Rock Island but I have Reed's and Columbians and a Craftsman 5196.

 

[econotrk]

Glad you started this thread Drives. Here's my contribution, a 5198 with a March of 1954 date stamped on the slide. I have this one mounted and gets almost daily use. Hope we can find the maker.

 

[econotrk]

How about we compare the numbers cast into the main nut and the swivel base for similarities? I don't have a Rock Island but I have Reed's and Columbians and a Craftsman 5196.

I think we may never get a definitive answer, but the best guess will be from comparing things like Bluebolt mentions. Here's a couple pics of numbers I found on mine while it was apart. The shape/style and location of the numbers, the style of machine work done on the slide. Something should show the same as one of the known manufactures. Some things that may stand out are the first pic shows slide finish, second pic shows underside of the dynamic jaw, third pic back of jaw, 4th and 5th pic top and bottom of the swivel lock, 6th is the lead screw nut, 7th and last shows numbers in the base.

 

[drivesitfar]

HONZA: i'm not sure when the US started building factories in Taiwan or having Japan make stuff for us, but it wasn't long after WWII. if you have more information on that let us know.

BB: i think the clues to solving our mystery are in the details. since this vise is one of a kind maybe there is a patent out there that might give us some clues if it was made in the USA. yep pull any #'s you can off your Reeds and Columbians.

Econ: thanks for posting up your 5198 and I WISH I OWNED ONE. maybe someday I will. i had a 5197 and it's on another member's bench now, but i recall when i first saw a picture of it and then in person. it had a busted vise nut and i still gave the old guy is asking price which wasn't cheap while buying up a few more old Craftsman tools. thank you very much for posting all the part #'s of your 5198 and maybe we'll get this figured out.

ALL: after i get done with my daughter's wedding i'll dive into some of the details on my Craftsman 5196 and some of the similarities with the Rock Islands i own. the date on the slides is identical if i recall correctly so if any of you want to post the date stamps on your 519x's and a few of the Rock Island's please do.

I think Balane mentioned one time that one of his Rock Island vises weighed within a pound of one of a similar sized 519x and just can't recall the model #'s so hope he finds this thread to post or i'll PM or email him to ask.

Anybody know when the US started importing from Japan. or Taiwan? not certain this is where these vises were made, but since they have parts of several other vises unless Sears owned all the patents my thinking is the patents wouldn't have been worldwide back then so all these cool ideas could have been put into one vise.

SOME OF THE COOL STUFF IN A 519x vise:
1) vise nut holder is one of a kind on an old vise and not sure why it isn't used on every vise
2) vise nut has a slit and a screw to tighten or loosen the action
3) the sleeve on the main screw is threaded (is it on all 519x's) which really threw me off the first time i tried to take my 5196 apart.
4) a hub on the main screw with a design in it
5) ADD YOUR OWN IF YOU KNOW OF ANY!!

and of course for it's size compare a 4.5 inch 5196 to a Columbian Craftsman 4.5 and i'm guessing the 5196 weighs almost twice as much if not more.

 

[jreb10]

Here are my comparison photos of my 5198 jaws. I had posted these earlier but am reposting them here.

The comparisons were to Rock Island vises that were relabeled for Craftsman and Dunlap. I believe KMScott subsequently commented that he agreed the jaws were interchangeable.

 

[Roberts210]

HONZA: i'm not sure when the US started building factories in Taiwan or having Japan make stuff for us, but it wasn't long after WWII. if you have more information on that let us know.

Japan's industrial centers were bombed out of existence during WWII. However the U.S. helped Japan rebuild and from '46 to '49 we actually sent them $500 million a year to help them rebuild, and before long machine gun factories that had produced the Nambu (one of which took out my step-dad's leg in May of 1945) were converted to make sewing machines; Nikon's optical weapons factories went back to making cameras. I haven't been able to find much about when exports to the U.S. started, but my 2-bit guess is it was in the early '50's. I was a boy then and I do remember cheap wind-up toy cars "Made in Japan" which always broke and when we took them apart on the inside of the sheet metal we found things like Campbell's soup printing in English--they were recycling our old tin cans into toys and shipping them back to us.

 

[econotrk]

I don't believe the 51xx series were made anywhere but right here in the US. We were not so good at putting the Made in USA on things because it was a almost a given as we didn't import that much. However, anything made overseas, Japan, East Germany, West Germany, was always marked as such.

Jreb, that's a pretty convincing picture showing at least the jaws were made by Rock Island. We need to see some number fonts to see if they are a match to the Rock Island castings.

 

[drivesitfar]

JREB: thanks for bringing that up because it was another reason i think Rock Island made these awesome 519x's.

Roberts: first off thank your step dad for his service and sorry to hear about his leg. my great gramps lost his leg in a cedar saw mill when he was maybe in his 20's and lived a long good life so hopefully your step dad is doing ok too.

interesting stuff about all the money we spent to bring Japan back into the world not to mention the amount we spent and maybe still spend providing them with military help.

Econ: do you have a date stamped on your slide of your 5198? any chance you have or can take a picture of it? also anybody have any Rock Island's date stamps to post pictures of?

ALL: another reason i think it's ROCK ISLAND is Sears (Craftsman) had a relationship with them in the 20's and 30's and then went to Reed to have their vises made. then after WWII maybe Rock Island was struggling like Wilton was to keep afloat and they re negotiated with SEARS again to make their vises. it's got to be more than a coincidence that the 519x's and Rock Island quit making vises at the same time in the late 50's.

maybe getting all the date stamps on the 519x's posted while we are posting up pictures of them might also find the earliest and latest ones dated sort of like we sort of figured out the Wilton date stamps.

IDEAS?? THOUGHTS??

 

[oldldh]

You want photos, hey???

Well, here's BigCaddy's collection...

And some of "my" 5198, before BC restored it, and after...

Wonder where he came up with the color for the 5198???

 

[econotrk]

Econ: do you have a date stamped on your slide of your 5198? any chance you have or can take a picture of it?

Here ya go Drives.

 

[drivesitfar]

Oldie: so you might have started all this 5198 so many years ago so i have to ask again who do you think made the 519x's? i know until i started asking questions about Columbian not making it i was almost chased off the vise thread for such BLASPHAMY cause it was Columbian or go home a few years ago when i mentioned one of my 80 year old clients thought it was Starrett made them. he's passed now, but he was a machinist for 50+ years and he still thought Starrett made them. with the vise nut slotted and screw and the interesting pin to hold the vise nut he could be right, but i'm still thinking ROCK ISLAND.

So do you and others still think Columbian or have we maybe convinced you that it might be ROCK ISLAND or some other vise company that made your BELOVED CRAFTSMAN 5198 (and your unicorn or unmade 5199)?

just checking cause i think you actually said you'd be ok if you found a 5198 that swivels too and i know you are a NON SWIVELER.

cheers buddy

Econ: thanks for posting your date stamp!!

ALL: anybody know why this vise has so many different vise company's parts? so doesn't the HANDLE look like STARRETT'S or MORGAN'S?

I'm curious when the first Craftsman 519x was made so any of you have one date stamped earlier than 1948 and when is the last one cause i can't recall seeing any past 1956? time to post up pictures of your 519x's and date stamps if you have any. thanks in advance.

 

[oldldh]

I saw, somewhere, that they were all, when ordered through the Sears and Roebuck catalog....

Drop shipped from "Our Factory" in...

Either --- Southern Illinois, or from "Our factory" in...

Rock Island, Illinois...

So, for lack of a better answer...

I'll go for Rock Island...

Don't have any "proof". but that's my SWAG (Scientific Wild *** Guess)...

(My previous post about my "imaginary" 5199 --- 6" Steel billet vise, 180+ pounds, whittled by Reverend Scott, after "blowing up a 5198 drawing by about 25 to 30%...After my Wife wins the Lottery...It would be a double swivel'r, as it would have a swivlin' jaw, too!!!)

 

[drivesitfar]

Oldie: i'm right there with you if there was a vise to copy and have custom made the 5198 (or the 5199 with a little more weight and swivel jaw) would be one to copy.

while you are looking in your pictures of many Craftsman 519x's i think you had one or two NOS (new old stock) in their original boxes maybe that might have the manufacturer's location on the box. if it is Illinois what other choices do we have that made quality vises and had a relationship with Sears?

ALL: post up those Craftsman 519x's if you have any and with the date codes and any part #'s you find too so we can keep solving the mystery.

 

[oldldh]

The only "Original Box" photo I have...

Is of a 5197...

And...

No joy on anything printed on the outside of the box...

Although...

There is the "Owner's Manual" on the table/workbench, that someone with vastly more computer skills, than I possess, could read...Maybe...

Sorry, that's the best I can do...

 

[drivesitfar]

Oldie: that's the picture. so we need ABBEY of NCIS and if she's not available maybe OUTLAW or one of the younger members can see some more details on the manual that we can't.

ALL: so i knew i had more than a few 519x's saved so how about I post up a little VISE ****. I think the only one i have left of the ones i owned (no i didn't own all of these and i hope this thread brings BigCaddy back with his army of 519x's.

cheers (ice tea for this old guy)

 

[drivesitfar]

ALL: i have this old Craftsman wood vise that is new in the box and look at it's model #. interesting?

also have a few more catalog pages to post.

anybody else own a 519x please post up the vise pictures and at least the date code on the slide if you would. any other information would be great to add.

thanks

 

[Cope]

ALL: i have this old Craftsman wood vise that is new in the box and look at it's model #. interesting?

also have a few more catalog pages to post.

anybody else own a 519x please post up the vise pictures and at least the date code on the slide if you would. any other information would be great to add.

thanks

Any idea who made the bench vise in those ads? I have a 3 1/2" that needs some cleaning up and maybe repainting.

 

[drivesitfar]

Cope: i'm guessing you are talking about this Craftsman vise? i'm guessing Columbian did and US MADE before they started making vises in Japan for Sears (Craftsman).

 

[LesserSon]

Ducksface - June 14, 1930 Smoot-Hawley?

 

[mlisac]

here is my 5191, dated 10/51

 

[kwoswalt99]

Cope: i'm guessing you are talking about this Craftsman vise? i'm guessing Columbian did and US MADE before they started making vises in Japan for Sears (Craftsman).

I always figured they were made by Wilton, because of the retainer, and Wilton made some vises with stamped steel slides. Don't have any evidence here, and don't even know if Wilton made any that early, do with this idea what you will.

 

[fullthrottle24]

Here is mine:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4600817&postcount=24473

 

[drivesitfar]

DUCK: 5199 is in OLDIE'S imagination as being a 300 pounder so if you see a 200 pound plus vise with Craftsman or any maker's name on the side you can PM Oldie and if he passes PLEASE PM ME.

Lesser: thanks for the date

ML: nice looking 5191 and thanks for the date stamp

99: Wilton didn't make them, but appreciate you looking in on the thread. not sure what you are calling a retainer on the 519x's?

FT: here's the picture off your thread of your Craftsman 5196 dated 10/54

 

[kwoswalt99]

99: Wilton didn't make them, but appreciate you looking in on the thread. not sure what you are calling a retainer on the 519x's?

The 517x's, not the 519x.

 

[bluebolt]

Cope: i'm guessing you are talking about this Craftsman vise? i'm guessing Columbian did and US MADE before they started making vises in Japan for Sears (Craftsman).

I have a suspicion that those 517X vises may be made by Rock Island as well. They are heavy little vises, 29 pounds for the 3 1/2" wide jaw and 35 pounds for the 4" jaw versus 19 and 27 pounds for the later medium duty bench 518X vises. They were in the catalog the same time as the 519x vises too.

Speaking of those 518X vises I think they started making them in Japan in the early 70's.

 

[larry4406]

Slightly off topic, but anyone know a good paint match for the vises from the early 50's? I have a Craftsman lathe the same color and would like to find a close match. I thought I read in the block grinder threads that Ace Hardware machine grey was close.

 

[jreb10]

Slightly off topic, but anyone know a good paint match for the vises from the early 50's? I have a Craftsman lathe the same color and would like to find a close match. I thought I read in the block grinder threads that Ace Hardware machine grey was close.

Valspar 85041 Gloss Cobalt Cannon is the best match I have found. Plastikote T-10 Machinery Grey is very close as well, perhaps just a touch lighter.

 

[Cope]

Cope: i'm guessing you are talking about this Craftsman vise? i'm guessing Columbian did and US MADE before they started making vises in Japan for Sears (Craftsman).

Yes, that's the one. Is your color original?

 

[Cope]

I always figured they were made by Wilton, because of the retainer, and Wilton made some vises with stamped steel slides. Don't have any evidence here, and don't even know if Wilton made any that early, do with this idea what you will.

I agree about the retainer. The end of the screw has an unusual shape, as does the lock down.

 

[drivesitfar]

BB: i forgot to look at the #'s on that little Craftsman heritage badged vise so you are saying it's a 517x version? it's one of those that i've got plenty of in that style so was just going to sell it as is to anybody that needs a nice old vise better than a new Chicom one. it is a lot beefier than the columbians that Craftsman made that are a bit newer so i'll maybe clean it up a little and see if i see anything interesting including a model #. the one i posted is a 4 inch wide jaw.

Cope: yep Jreb's blue grey color i think he painted his 519x and i think is his avatar is the original color. since the little Craftsman i posted has a lot of white overspray here's my 5196 that you can see the original color the vise was sold with cause it's never been restored or repainted.

ALL: i'll keep asking for more pictures of your 519x's and date stamps until we figure this WHO MADE THESE so post them up PLEASE!!..

cheers

 

[larry4406]

Valspar 85041 Gloss Cobalt Cannon is the best match I have found. Plastikote T-10 Machinery Grey is very close as well, perhaps just a touch lighter.

Thank you!

 

[fullthrottle24]

Let's get back on topic. The Columbian theory probably comes from this vise restored by former vise guru Catalyze. My theory is that Columbian took over production in late 50's early 60's. They kept some of the previous maker's look. Rock Island was probably that maker. If they went out of the vise game, Columbian was free to use their style without fear of infringement.
Rock island gets my vote:
1. Jaws
2. Date stamp on top of beam
3. Shipped from Illinois
4. Weight similar to Rock island
5. Previous maker of Craftsman vises.

 

[drivesitfar]

FT: great post and my thinking pretty much exactly. just working on getting a few more facts.

ALL: anybody have a relative that worked at Sears or Rock Island vise company in the late 40's early 50's? speak up if you might have some answers verbally or paperwork would be even better.

I think Columbian might still make Craftsman vises after starting to make vises for them in the late 50's. here's my Crowntop craftsman vise that i'm pretty sure was made by Columbian.

 

[ganymede]

This was on that scuttle dayid vise page.
Notice the bodies of the machinist vises. Not saying it's them but the bodies like quite similar...

 

[drivesitfar]

Gany: i own both a 5196 and the Crowntop made by Columbian and even though there are similarities the 5196 is over the top nicer. also the Crowntop has T jaws on mine and in that catalog page you posted and the jaws on the 519x's are the U shaped ones like Rock Island has. another vise company that has U shaped jaws is Morgan which we haven't talked to much about. Morgan got Uncle Sam's business after WWII so guessing Sears wanted to deal with companies more willing to negotiate like Rock Island probably was.

ALL: i'll try to find time to take a picture of my 5196's date stamp and if any of you can post up yours so we get a range of the actual years of 519x production.

thanks