GC for dummies ... top tips for survival, lol

[him_thirsty_pa]

hello all. I am getting started on a 28x40 stick built garage in the coming weeks and will be meeting with GC's shortly to look at estimates, etc. I am thinking of having them take it to unfinished inside, maybe less maybe more.

with that said, i know evaluating and considering GC bids can be treacherous territory. what would be the top few things considered "must-do" when screening them out? With many more experienced members on here i'm sure there will be plenty of gotchas, red flags, etc to look out for

 

[readhead]

Itemized. What you don't want is "build garage, $100". One guy might use three tab shingles while the next guy has standing seam metal. Of course the bids start with you providing a clear detailed set of plans and specs.

 

[billspit]

^^^^ yea. Plans and specs.

 

[buddyboy]

remember that you only care about these things

1. materials. do you want top of the line everywhere? or skimp a little here and splurg a little there.

2. quality of labor. it's 'just a barn' labor, or 'man they did a great job' labor

3. time frame. 3 weeks?, 3 months?, 3 years?

4. cost/payments how much and when to pay. lien wavers, all this kind of stuff. do you pay the gc and the gc pays the lumber yard? or does the gc order the lumber and you pay the lumber yard on delivery? what happens if you pay the gc and the gc doesn't pay the lumberyard? in some states you are still responsible to pay.

communication is key, neither you or the gc can read minds, before hiring a gc ask lots of 'what if' questions... like "if the slab is poured and it starts to rain and it gets all jacked up and looks like **** and i don't like it what do we do to make me happy?" "what if I wanted brown 30 year shingles and your guy installs black 3 tab, do you rip off the shingles and install new? or give me money back?"

also make it clear that you are not going to micro manage the project, that's why you are asking all these what if's... you are going to trust the gc to get it done the way you want it.

you need reassured that the gc will make you happy without you being on the job eyeballing every move a sub makes

 

[pcmeiners]

Get a gun, if you end up shooting the sob GC, plead financial and emotional self defense.

Unless you have a good deal of experience writing contracts/specs, I would recommend you get an Architect and lawyer to go over what you will sign; an architect will find many thing you omit and pay extra for. A bond is a good idea. I have nailed a number of GCs to the wall as a foreman on large building construction, also been nailed a couple times, and I can produce a damn got contract, so everyone is vulnerable.

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

all great info guys, keep it coming ...

also, would love to have someone elaborate on "lien wavers". i have a vague idea of what they do as regards protecting me from him not paying subs, but not much else. is this something that i must have from him, without question?

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

Get a gun, if you end up shooting the sob GC, plead financial and emotional self defense.

emotional distress, gotcha

 

[Git]

Contract Contract Contract

Get everything in writing, estimated start date, completion date, payment schedule. Any changes should require a written change order. Try to get the specs for the more expensive items in the contract - but they probably will not spec out everything. (I once had a contractor tried to use generic items instead of the 'name brand' items that the contract called for and he had to replace them)

Lien Waiver - In my area as soon as a project is started, most of the 'suppliers' will start sending you a 'preliminary notice' that they have an interest in the property (they want to make sure they will get paid) This is actually helpful because you know who is actually involved.

Here is a link to a preliminary notice - read it and it will help you understand what is going on:
http://saclaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/form-california-preliminary-notice-private-works.pdf

Here is a page with some actual lien release forms:
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/consumers/le...al_and_unconditional_waiver_release_form.aspx

You usually go through a 'learning phase'. When you first start on a project, you might not be sure what exactly what you want. As you talk to different contractors you start to get a sense for some things that are more important to you that perhaps one contractor talked about but another didn't. What I like to do is when it is time to make an actual decision, I draw up my 'spec sheet' where I list out the things that I am really concerned about and then recontact the contractors that I have talked to and ask them to bid on those specs so it is more of an 'apple to apple' comparison. And there should not be any confusion later down the road.

 

[bczygan]

Cash bond.

Performance specifications.

 

[buddyboy]

every state is different. what people do in New York or California or Oklahoma will be VERY different than N Carolina.

google search lien waivers North Carolina

also if you are getting a loan ask your lender about them, they may or may not require them for you to get draws

call your county building dept, tell them what you're doing and you want to make sure you cover your **** as far as liens go, if and how they are recorded, if they don't know, ask them who would know so you can talk to them. while you're at it ask about permits, who gets them, who pays for them, who inspects, failed inspections, time to finish a project, what happens if GC bails on you... setbacks, hight, square footage, do you need pre-approval, really ask any and all questions you can think of, they may even have pre-printed information on how to hire contractors in your county. they may even require all contractors register with the county, or township, or town, village....

once you have a better idea of what a GC is required to do where you live you can interview GC's by asking intelligent questions.

 

[GTO]

Hire the subs yourself.

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

Lien Waiver - In my area as soon as a project is started, most of the 'suppliers' will start sending you a 'preliminary notice' that they have an interest in the property (they want to make sure they will get paid) This is actually helpful because you know who is actually involved.

Here is a link to a preliminary notice - read it and it will help you understand what is going on:
http://saclaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/form-california-preliminary-notice-private-works.pdf

Here is a page with some actual lien release forms:
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/consumers/le...al_and_unconditional_waiver_release_form.aspx

that sheds some light on the subject, thanks. still just hard to wrap my mind around though - i hire someone who then hires subs. i pay him, but he stiffs them and they expect to hold me accountable for him not paying??? that would seem to fall under the "that ****'s between ya'll" clause lol ... wow, mind boggling

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

Hire the subs yourself.

is certainly something i'm considering ... was trying to save myself some aggravation, but there seems to be a lot of shady risk with GC's.

 

[DPG]

Get everything that you can written down. If it is not in writing, it did not happen.

 

[Git]

that sheds some light on the subject, thanks. still just hard to wrap my mind around though - i hire someone who then hires subs. i pay him, but he stiffs them and they expect to hold me accountable for him not paying??? that would seem to fall under the "that ****'s between ya'll" clause lol ... wow, mind boggling

That is exactly what happens.

Sometimes a contractor can get caught up in a 'pyramid scheme' situation where your down payment is actually going towards another person's project and the whole thing finally collapses when the money stops coming in. People and suppliers end up not getting paid. (Or the Contractor just runs off with the money and abandons the project, etc)

Liens are there to protect THEM not you. In California for example, let's say you hire a contractor to install your garage doors. He holds up his end of the bargain but YOU fail to pay him or he fails to pay the place that sold the garage door to him. They can't go back and 'repo' the door. (Once something is installed, it is part of the structure). But they can file a lien on the property to eventually get their money. Without a lien release, you could get screwed.

Again, your state may have different laws, this is just my experience

 

[klassenl]

Talk it around to your friends and Co workers. You can't believe everything you hear but it won't take long to know who not to hire. If you have friends in the trades ask them who they would hire. It's better to get a guy highly recommended by word of mouth than to write a ridiculous contract.

 

[Kaizen]

is certainly something i'm considering ... was trying to save myself some aggravation, but there seems to be a lot of shady risk with GC's.

probably a lot less work to hire them yourself. really depends on what kind of a guy you are and they are. my concrete was done on the agreement that he could do it between the good paying jobs. so I waited a few weeks past where it would have taken a big place to do it. but saved myself quite a bunch of money. the saying "if you want it done right do it yourself" comes to mind.

 

[73RR]

Ask for referrals at the local lumber yards and see if 1 or 2 names keep popping up.
When you first talk with the GC ask for at least 3 recent customers that you can talk to and look at the finished work.
Contract. Written on the back of a napkin or 6 pages long listing damned near everything that is included?
The best contract is one that protects you and the GC equally. You and the GC are partners in this endeavor, not adversaries.
If you worry about the GC not paying his subs then make out the check (for that specific portion of work) to both of them. Yes, it will create more work for them and they will not be real happy but you then have evidence that the sub has been paid. The easy way out of this is to pay the subs directly but how much do you want to be involved?

 

[Davefr]

Hire the subs yourself.

^^^Silly idea

A good GC will:
1. Know and hire the best subs
2. Hold the subs accountable for quality, schedule and cost
3. Be able to call in subs at a moments notice. Subs will squeeze in projects for those that provide them ongoing business.


As a homeowner:
1. You will likely not even get phone calls returned from the better subs.
2. Those that will, will likely be the worst ones. Subs generally hate working for homeowners.
3. They'll bolt when a better job comes along. Potentially leaving the job incomplete.
4. Callbacks for quality issues will get ignored.
5. Everything will proceed much slower because you'll be last on everyone's list of priorities.
6. You might not even be able to spot major problems until it's too late.

In most areas, building/construction is a relationship based business between GC's and subs. Hire the best GC you can find based on reputation, word of mouth, etc, etc.

If you want some sweat equity then sign up for site cleanup or painting.

 

[Smoker]

Hire the subs yourself.

This. You'll do a much better job shopping for quotes and reputable subs. A GC marks up the subs cost and uses his buddies whom may (or may not) be the best for your project.

Hired all my own subs, showed them the stamped plans and paid for the material directly at the supply house. Worked out fantastic and kept costs super low. I guess it depends how confident you are in your managing abilities.

 

[pmiranda]

This reminds me of the difference between buying individual stocks and buying mutual funds. You have to do the research no matter what. In theory the GC (mutual fund) lowers your risk and they charge a fee for the privilege, but you can still make a bad choice up front and get screwed.

 

[GTO]

^^^Silly idea

A good GC will:
1. Know and hire the best subs
2. Hold the subs accountable for quality, schedule and cost
3. Be able to call in subs at a moments notice. Subs will squeeze in projects for those that provide them ongoing business.


As a homeowner:
1. You will likely not even get phone calls returned from the better subs.
2. Those that will, will likely be the worst ones. Subs generally hate working for homeowners.
3. They'll bolt when a better job comes along. Potentially leaving the job incomplete.
4. Callbacks for quality issues will get ignored.
5. Everything will proceed much slower because you'll be last on everyone's list of priorities.
6. You might not even be able to spot major problems until it's too late.

In most areas, building/construction is a relationship based business between GC's and subs. Hire the best GC you can find based on reputation, word of mouth, etc, etc.

If you want some sweat equity then sign up for site cleanup or painting.

How many subs do you think the OP needs ? He only needs to hire maybe 3 subs,someone to dig the hole/footings,mason and a framer.

That's all I hired to build my Detached,I even did the roof,siding and electric myself

 

[Davefr]

How many subs do you think the OP needs ? He only needs to hire maybe 3 subs,someone to dig the hole/footings,mason and a framer.

I'm sure every area is different, but around here those subs are some of the most in demand. They can pick and choose their jobs and homeowner managed jobs will be the absolutely last on their list.

Without the clout of a GC, the OP may have a very difficult time lining up the good ones in a reasonable time frame and managing the job for a successful outcome.

The OP should do his homework and ask around if he wants to go this route.

Hiring a good GC pays for itself many times over. A bad GC is simply money wasted.

 

[him_thirsty_pa]

both completely valid perspectives gentlemen. I certainly am capable of hiring out the subs, managing the intervals, etc ... but i have absolutely no doubt that a good GC offers plenty of advantages, not the least of which being the "pain in the ***" factor of dealing with jack leg subs and inspectors.

 

[Smoker]

both completely valid perspectives gentlemen. I certainly am capable of hiring out the subs, managing the intervals, etc ... but i have absolutely no doubt that a good GC offers plenty of advantages, not the least of which being the "pain in the ***" factor of dealing with jack leg subs and inspectors.

My city inspector has been a joy to deal with. He tells me what I need to do to meet code without the massive over-building some GC's try and justify their costs with. I would rather cut out the middle man. As I mentioned before I paid for subs material directly at the supply house, cut out another mark up. Given I had to do my research but chatting with the supply houses they were happy to help me choose cost vs quality and i could decide rather than having it decided for me. The lumber house, concrete guy, truss plant, roofing supplier and siding store were all very, very helpful. I think i saved probably $25k all told.