water pressure booster

[My Old Tools]

Tell me what is good and what to avoid. We have 40 PSI and the showers are weak, especially with two heads going at once . We have a pressure tank and pump that is currently in-op left from the previous owners. The setup looks roughly like this one. The plumber wants to can it all and start over, but I have two of these pumps, one installed and one re-built.
http://inspectapedia.com/water/JetPump020DJF.jpg

 

[chaosracing]

I am wondering if your pressure tank isn't shot. Your pumps are only really designed to get the water from the well to the pressure tank. The pressure tank is what is supposed to supply the required pressure. Maybe if you have the room, go with a larger pressure tank.

Also since you have a rebuilt pump, might be a good time to swap them around.

 

[joe_padavano]

I am wondering if your pressure tank isn't shot. Your pumps are only really designed to get the water from the well to the pressure tank. The pressure tank is what is supposed to supply the required pressure.

Huh?

Sorry, no. The pump must pump the water into the pressure tank at a pressure at least as great as the air pressure acting on the diaphragm. If not, then no water will go into the tank.

 

[chaosracing]

Huh?

Sorry, no. The pump must pump the water into the pressure tank at a pressure at least as great as the air pressure acting on the diaphragm. If not, then no water will go into the tank.

Yes, but you are not supposed to rely on the pumps for house pressure. If that were the case, then there would be no need for a pressure tank. I have replaced quite a few pressure tanks and pumps over the years.

Another thought is you can also have a bad check valve as well.

 

[Radix2]

Std water pumps come with pressure switches set to 30-50psi. It comes on at 30, off at 50.

So, your average water pressure is indeed about 40. And will be exactly the same if you get a new pump...I'll assume the tank is set up and pressurized properly - it is there to optimize the time and frequency that the pump runs and has little to do with pressure.


If you want higher pressure, you can buy or rebuild your pump with higher pressure vanes and parts so that you can reset the pressure switch to a higher range...say 40-60 or 50-70 or go with less hysteresis and set to 50-60.

But most people on jet pump wells live with 30-50. Maybe time for new shower heads? Calcium build up ?

 

[Radix2]

For the name brands like goulds, rebuild parts for higher pressure are readily available and not expensive.

You could try setting the switch higher without doing anything else, but it may struggle to hit a cutoff much over 50 and then it will run until it overheats....

 

[ssdave]

I would put in a float controlled, non-pressurized water storage tank and pump from your well to that. Then, install a Goulds Aquavar VFD booster pump to pressurize the water to the house.

https://www.pumpproducts.com/goulds-1ab21hm06-aquavar-abii-booster-system-with-tank-outdoor-controller-hp-208-230v-phase-input-and-hm-pump-hp-208-230-460-volts-phase-npt-suction-npt-discharge-stages-12-gpm-max-170-ft-max-head-p-547800.html?gclid=CN2Tr6Ts-9ECFZWCswodi2gKWA

A few years ago, I went away from specifying pressure tanks and went to this type of system. It costs a bit more up front, but is a much more reliable system and has better results. What the VFD costs up front is saved in well pumping costs and in wear and tear on your well pump. I'd much rather put the wear on a pump that is in my house or well house than on the pump that is down the well.

 

[wasfuzz]

Designed for water supply pressure boosting in residential, commercial and light industrial applications where low or inadequate water pressure exists. It is suitable for boosting pressure from underground or surface water supplies.

 

[Radix2]

I would put in a float controlled, non-pressurized water storage tank and pump from your well to that. Then, install a Goulds Aquavar VFD booster pump to pressurize the water to the house.

https://www.pumpproducts.com/goulds-1ab21hm06-aquavar-abii-booster-system-with-tank-outdoor-controller-hp-208-230v-phase-input-and-hm-pump-hp-208-230-460-volts-phase-npt-suction-npt-discharge-stages-12-gpm-max-170-ft-max-head-p-547800.html?gclid=CN2Tr6Ts-9ECFZWCswodi2gKWA

A few years ago, I went away from specifying pressure tanks and went to this type of system. It costs a bit more up front, but is a much more reliable system and has better results. What the VFD costs up front is saved in well pumping costs and in wear and tear on your well pump. I'd much rather put the wear on a pump that is in my house or well house than on the pump that is down the well.

What he shows in his picture is a shallow well jet pump. There is no "pump down in the well" to save. You are talking about spending 2-5x what he needs and making a simple system complex.

If he has a submersible pump I missed it somewhere...

 

[larry_g]

Where are you measuring your 40 psi pressure?

Are you on a well, lets assume yes.

Is there a head loss to the shower that is how high above the tank? If the shower is on the second floor or the house is up the hill you will have loss.

Is this a new problem? Have you been in the house long enough to see a change?

Are you new to living on a well?

How old is the plumbing? Old enough to have the pipes loosing ID due to buildup on the inside?

Is there a plugged filter in the system?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[ssdave]

A cheap simple system that doesn't work to your needs isn't an advantage. The reason he is asking is that it isn't working now and needs replaced. 2x to 5x the cost of a non-working sytem to get a working system? Might be worth it. Or might not, some people will simply put up with the inconvenience of a system that doesn't work well to save dollars. Only the OP can make that decision.

Shallow well jet pumps are not a great way to pressurize a system, they're best at lifting quantities of water at low pressure. Their efficiency goes way down as the pressure needs increase. Even more reason to go to a storage tank, and a separate pressurizing system. It just won't have the long term cost savings that you would get from a deep well submersible and separate pressure pump system. It might have some savings in pumping costs, but that probably wouldn't pay for the system.

 

[MUD DAWG]

Is there a plugged filter in the system?

Yup. Don't overlook the simple stuff first.

 

[My Old Tools]

Sorry, more information. We are on a community well that supplies 35-40 PSI. That is marginal for our use. The previous owners (we just bought the place and remodeled it) thought so too, hence the pressure tank and pump under the house to boost the well pressure from 40 PSI to maybe 60 PSI. The current plumbing configuration is unknown and maybe bypassed completely. I am wanting to know if these pumps and pressure tank are appropriate for the job or should I be looking at some other equipment before I invest time and money in getting it going again. All of the other plumbing is new PEX and new fixtures inside.

 

[JRC3]

Yes, but you are not supposed to rely on the pumps for house pressure. If that were the case, then there would be no need for a pressure tank. I have replaced quite a few pressure tanks and pumps over the years.

Actually a pressure tank (PT) is there to keep the well pump from cycling too much. Without a pressure tank your pump would cut on then back off every time a toilet was flushed, a glass was filled, or the ice maker made a few cubes. The "drawdown" of the tank is the volume of water that is kept in reserve between when the pump cuts off and then cuts back on.

The fact that it's called a "PT" leads people to think it provides pressure, it does not. It's really called a "PT" because of the bladder on the inside that has air pressure to force the water out of the tank when the well pump is not running. A properly set PT's bladder is actually set 2-4 psi less than the cut-in pressure of the pump, so their is no way it can provide more pressure to the home.

 

[My Old Tools]

Anybody familiar with DuraMAC Booster Pumps? My plumber didn't like the jet pump for pressurizing. Are these a better approach?

 

[chaosracing]

I would put in a float controlled, non-pressurized water storage tank and pump from your well to that. Then, install a Goulds Aquavar VFD booster pump to pressurize the water to the house.

https://www.pumpproducts.com/goulds-1ab21hm06-aquavar-abii-booster-system-with-tank-outdoor-controller-hp-208-230v-phase-input-and-hm-pump-hp-208-230-460-volts-phase-npt-suction-npt-discharge-stages-12-gpm-max-170-ft-max-head-p-547800.html?gclid=CN2Tr6Ts-9ECFZWCswodi2gKWA

A few years ago, I went away from specifying pressure tanks and went to this type of system. It costs a bit more up front, but is a much more reliable system and has better results. What the VFD costs up front is saved in well pumping costs and in wear and tear on your well pump. I'd much rather put the wear on a pump that is in my house or well house than on the pump that is down the well.

I think I just saw them install a similar system recently on This Old House. I was wondering how well it would be compared to the standard well pump and pressure tank set up. Is it easy to retrofit?

 

[pcmeiners]

JRC3 is correct, the tank is there to stop short cycling, by no means does it increase or decrease pressure supplied by your pump; I was in water well drilling for years . You need a booster pump as mentioned or a multi stage pump. Multi stage pumps have multiple impellers, each boosting the pressure, worked with some which have 16 stages.

Example.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5GBC07-Goul...984989?hash=item3ac9b1f05d:g:c2IAAOSw6dNWTNKx

VFDs do little or anything for water pumps; about the only power saved is during the inrush current during starts. The amount of power used to deliver a given number of gallons from a well is a constant, a VFD can not change that. As it stands there are no devices in this universe which can get around that, perhaps in another universe perpetual motion has been achieved, but not his one. The only thing I know which can increase power efficiency for any given well pump motor is correcting the power factor, either by get a high efficiency motor or by using power factor correcting devices or capacitors.

 

[ssdave]

VFD controlled motors are actually LESS efficient than standard motors. Their only efficiencies come from being able to more efficientlyl run the pump, so that the PUMP is more efficient. There are huge differences in efficiencies in pumps. Most pumps are efficient at only one particular flow rate and pressure. That's where running a well pump against a pressure tank can be inefficient; at some point in the pressure cycle the pump may be quite inefficient. Selecting a pump to run against a constant pressure to an open tank instead of a pressure tank may allow it to be more efficient.

However, to go back on topic, The booseter pump that I suggested earlier is exactly the item to boost pressure as needed from the community system pressure to the desired pressure. In that case, it can be installed without any pressure tank, and the savings in not having a pressure tank make it quite economical. That situation is exactly what these systems were originally designed for. I wouldn't even consider putting in a pump and pressure tank for a booster if I just wanted to boost pressure from a commercial source; the vfd booster will do a better job, for less maintenance, and about the same or less cost. And, takes up a lot less space.

 

[My Old Tools]

Interesting that your link includes a pressure tank.....

 

[ssdave]

Interesting that your link includes a pressure tank.....

It has an expansion tank to handle small pressure drops without kicking on the pump, and to absorb water hammer as faucets are opened and closed. About like the expansion tank installed on a water heater. Not a storage tank like the typical pressure tank you see with a well pump.

They are good systems. The best thing about them is that you get extremely consistent pressures, regardless of the flow rate.

 

[My Old Tools]

Thanks. I've learned a lot today.

 

[JRC3]

I would like to add that the stated gallons of a pressure tank has nothing to do with the gallons of water it provides. For example, a 46G PT only provides about 9 to 12 gallons of reserve water depending on the pressure switch settings. Also I would urge everyone to test their PTs and precharge on a regular basis as it could save you a bunch of money due to premature well pump failure.



I would like to discuss VFDs and the like at some point here at GJ. I've purchased a CSV (cycle stop valve) and am curious what some of you think about maintaining constant pressure with a submersible. pcmeiners and ssdave, you guys interested? Is there another thread already active to do this? I'm just a private well homeowner and am curious what others think away from dedicated well and plumbing based websites.

 

[Northislander]

I would put in a float controlled, non-pressurized water storage tank and pump from your well to that. Then, install a Goulds Aquavar VFD booster pump to pressurize the water to the house.

https://www.pumpproducts.com/goulds-1ab21hm06-aquavar-abii-booster-system-with-tank-outdoor-controller-hp-208-230v-phase-input-and-hm-pump-hp-208-230-460-volts-phase-npt-suction-npt-discharge-stages-12-gpm-max-170-ft-max-head-p-547800.html?gclid=CN2Tr6Ts-9ECFZWCswodi2gKWA

A few years ago, I went away from specifying pressure tanks and went to this type of system. It costs a bit more up front, but is a much more reliable system and has better results. What the VFD costs up front is saved in well pumping costs and in wear and tear on your well pump. I'd much rather put the wear on a pump that is in my house or well house than on the pump that is down the well.

Imo SSDaves recommendation is pretty well what i would do.
Now that we know your on a community water system that can't supply enough pressure i'm assuming it can't supply the volume either so a storage tank and grundfos scala 2 booster pump is what i would do

 

[Jeepster04]

You say that the well supplies 40psi, is it an artesian well?

Either way, if it supplies 40psi it sounds like you have a flow issue, rather than a pressure issue. What size are the pipes in the house? What size is the supply pipe coming into the house?

For whatever reason, I have a 3/4" pipe coming into my house that immediately switches to 1/2". I assume it was b/c of cost. The pressure is 60psi, but the flow is horrible. There is one spigot that gets the 3/4" pipe and its amazing how much better is it for washing the vehicles, spraying off the driveway, etc.

If the flow is the issue, then the only solution would be the fella whom posted about adding a tank to store water then using a pump and pressure tank. Even then, if your house has 1/2" pipes it it still wont supply water to two shower heads.

The issue can be much more than just pressure and pumps....

 

[Showkey]

You say that the well supplies 40psi, is it an artesian well?

Either way, if it supplies 40psi it sounds like you have a flow issue, rather than a pressure issue. What size are the pipes in the house? What size is the supply pipe coming into the house.

The issue can be much more than just pressure and pumps....

I would agree ^^^^^^^^^ before spending a boat load of cash verify the pressures and flow. Standard gauges are often off by 10-20% so making decisions on bad data is common. Verify by checking with known good quality gauges and check gallons per minute and several faucets including one or more on the main supply line.

 

[johninct]

My house is 20-40 . I had low shower pressure so I changed shower heads and it works pretty good now. Sorry, I don't remember the brand of shower head.

 

[TTTTTT]

Totally agree, if all 1/2", 2 showers or anything will supply less pressure to both. When I plumbed my house, all main lines were 3/4" with takeoff of 1/2". It balances the flow with more than one tap running. My new well and pump has a 40-60 psi pressure switch. A booster would help but unless you're up over 60 psi all the time you will experience less pressure, not to mention any pipe restrictions including taps, shower heads, etc. Haven't even got to water softeners or problems associated without proper treatment depending on your water.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[joe_padavano]

Yes, but you are not supposed to rely on the pumps for house pressure. If that were the case, then there would be no need for a pressure tank. I have replaced quite a few pressure tanks and pumps over the years.

While this no longer applies to the OP's situation, your statement is incorrect, or at least not fully correct. The air tank is an accumulator. The well pump still is the source of water pressure (at least for a well system). The air tank simply prevents pump short cycling. Ever used a well pump where the pressure tank was bad?

 

[My Old Tools]

We appear to have lots of flow with a 2" off the well and into the house. Then it switches to 3/4". The well pump itself is set to about 35-40 PSI. With losses from piping you end up with less at the shower head.

 

[chaosracing]

While this no longer applies to the OP's situation, your statement is incorrect, or at least not fully correct. The air tank is an accumulator. The well pump still is the source of water pressure (at least for a well system). The air tank simply prevents pump short cycling. Ever used a well pump where the pressure tank was bad?

So then when you just use a small amount of water, where does the pressure come from? Not the well pump if its not running.

 

[JRC3]

So then when you just use a small amount of water, where does the pressure come from? Not the well pump if its not running.

The pressure from the well is stored in the tank. An exact analogy would be the air compressor in your garage. Does the pump turn on every time you draw air from the hose?

Just like your compressor a well pump runs for a bit after the demand has stopped. It doesn't stop the second you turn off the faucet, it continues running to store that pressurized water in the tank.

 

[Jeepster04]

We appear to have lots of flow with a 2" off the well and into the house. Then it switches to 3/4". The well pump itself is set to about 35-40 PSI. With losses from piping you end up with less at the shower head.

An optimum setup would have 2" going and splitting off into two 3/4" lines. One 3/4" goes to the cold water heater then to a manifold and the other (cold water) goes to another manifold. Then you have supplies going to every faucet, toilet, showers, etc. Best would be a 3/4" supply to the showers since youre wanting good pressure/flow.

Most houses just have a cold and hot water line running the length of the house and **** feeds off of it as needed. Cheapest and easiest way... So you may have a 3/4" line supplying the water to both showers. Given it doesnt change to 1/2" somewhere under the floor/in the wall...