Backup options for one branch circuit

[AntonLargiader]

Being in central Virginia we have pretty frequent (and usually brief) power outages. My computer is on a plug-in UPS but the modem and routers aren't whenever we lose power my wife gets kicked off the VPN and that's a pain.

While the computer and modem are near each other, their circuits are routed quite differently. However, both outlets could stand to be rearranged as part of the work I'm doing.

Is there a legal way to power a branch circuit from a basic UPS? Such as, two outlets are fed by a J-box which has a cord and plugs into a UPS? Labeling would obviously be critical but even then there may not be a legal way to do it.

Everything I can find on the web ends up being about whole-house UPS systems.

 

[grantw]

There are various ways to do what you are asking. But, if it's not a dedicated system or "listed" to do the task you're asking; it's not "legal".

Legal and safe can be two different things though. I was thinking of how to relocate my various UPS units to the garage rather than having one at each workstation.

Example, I want my TV and Nvidia shield (Android TV) to be on a UPS. I can "interrupt" my living room branch and extend it to a 5-15P style wall mounted plug. I'll take the living room branch from the panel, and route it to a standard 5-15R. Then I can plug the UPS to the 5-15R and use a short 12awg cord to connect the UPS output to the 5-15P.

It seems "safe", but because it's non-standard way of adding a UPS, a lot of people will ask "WTF is that", and claim it's unsafe.


it's easier to keep the UPS at the device being protected. Besides, you don't want any fire investigators to find shady **** if anything ever goes wrong.

 

[rlitman]

There are various ways to do what you are asking. But, if it's not a dedicated system or "listed" to do the task you're asking; it's not legal.

Legal and safe can be two different things though. I was thinking of how to relocate my various UPSs to the garage rather than having one at each workstation.

Example, I want my TV and nvidia shield (android tv) to be on a UPS. So I can "interrupt" my living room branch and extend it to a 5-15P style wall mounted plug. I'll take the living room branch, and route it to a standard 5-15R. then I can use the UPS and a short 14 or 12ga cord to bridge the two. if that makes sense.

It seems "safe" in my mind, but because it's non-standard way of adding a UPS, a lot of people will ask WTF is that and claim it's unsafe.


it's easier to keep the UPS at the device being protected. Besides, you don't want any fire investigators to find shady **** if anything ever goes wrong.

I agree with you completely, though you're not all that far from being able to do it right.

You just need a UPS that allows for a hard wired output, as the 5-15 plug in the middle is the problem. There are plenty of UPS models that have a removable back plate which allow for a hard wired connection.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Hard-wired UPS. That's the search term, thanks.

At Mike Holt I found a relevant thread containing this: "Remember that because you are wiring to terminal blocks that the load side remains energized when the disconnect is pulled. Therefore by industry standards those wires need to be ORANGE (was YELLOW). And the NEC still applies but you are doing industrial machine wiring not building/residential. The change in connection points makes most of the NEC non-applicable but not all of it."

Hadn't thought about the persistent power being an NEC issue, just the connection. But this is why I ask rather than just doing...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

KISS principle- buy another UPS for the modem/gateway/switches/network equipment. This saves money on the cost and time spent rewiring circuits and allows the existing UPS to run longer on battery.

Why do u have to run it all on the same UPS and spend a bunch of money to do so?

Or theres always an extension cord.

 

[grantw]

KISS principle- buy another UPS for the modem/gateway/switches/network equipment. This saves money and allows the existing UPS to run longer on battery.

Why do u have to run it all on the same UPS and spend a bunch of money to do so?

Or theres always an extension cord.

I just have multiple UPS's. One dedicated one on the router / switch and another on each PC. Main purpose is to have a graceful shutdown on power loss events over 1 minute. The router / modem will stay online as long as possible as they don't have HDDs that corrupt the way encrypted desktops do.

One thing to keep in mind for your larger UPS units; They **** a lot of power just sitting there.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Why do u have to run it all on the same UPS and spend a bunch of money to do so?

Or theres always an extension cord.

It's really no money. The wires for those outlets are easy to join in the basement where I'm doing the other work. As for extension cords it would be having one across the middle of the living room... not really an option.

Don't have to run on the same UPS, but that's what I'm asking about.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Main purpose is to have a graceful shutdown on power loss events over 1 minute. The router / modem will stay online as long as possible as they don't have HDDs that corrupt the way encrypted desktops do.

The iMac can be shut down and then the modem and router would last for quite a while on the UPS while my wife works off the laptop's battery. It's really about not getting kicked off the VPN by brief outages.

 

[Eric29]

I have a pellet stove. Pellet stoves need electricity to exhaust the smoke from the burned pellets. When the electric goes off, the house fills with smoke, unless the stove has a backup battery. You can imagine how incredibly annoying that is. There's not a lot of smoke, but it stinks for weeks.

My stove doesn't have a backup battery; so I hooked up a tripp lite inverter to a sealed lead acid battery and plugged the stove into that with an extension cord.

You could do that. The only thing you would have to consider is whether you want an inverter that puts out a pure sine wave for the computer.

 

[mm08822]

Some of my generator customers were upset to find out that they lost cable/internet service when power went out while all of their in-house equipment was powered up!

 

[grantw]

Some of my generator customers were upset to find out that they lost cable/internet service when power went out while all of their in-house equipment was powered up!

comcast in my area has been good about that. That is actually part of the benefit when providers offer "land line" phone service. In a power outage, the internet / cable based phone service still works. as a side benefit, tv / internet still work too.

Most voice enabled modems offered have a backup battery internal to keep dial tone live in case of a power outage.

https://www.xfinity.com/support/phone/installing-battery-into-voice-modem/

 

[malibu101]

This is made for a furnace, but, it will do a single 15A circuit just fine IF you had a generator.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-Furnace-Transfer-Switch-TF151/202216476

To do it with a UPS, just run a cord from the UPS into here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

comcast in my area has been good about that. That is actually part of the benefit when providers offer "land line" phone service. In a power outage, the internet / cable based phone service still works. as a side benefit, tv / internet still work too.

Most voice enabled modems offered have a backup battery internal to keep dial tone live in case of a power outage.

https://www.xfinity.com/support/phone/installing-battery-into-voice-modem/

Sure. Cable co VOIP works in power outages until the cable co backup battery on the pole dies.

 

[Eric29]

If you hook that up, won't you have two paths to ground in the circuit since it doesn't switch the neutral?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...03.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGM3yRXzknuaH4BhRlyK8MOLxTKBA

This is made for a furnace, but, it will do a single 15A circuit just fine IF you had a generator.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-Furnace-Transfer-Switch-TF151/202216476

To do it with a UPS, just run a cord from the UPS into here.

 

[malibu101]

If you hook that up, won't you have two paths to ground in the circuit since it doesn't switch the neutral?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...03.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGM3yRXzknuaH4BhRlyK8MOLxTKBA

Normally transfer switches don't transfer the neutral, only the phase conductors.

Quote from your link- "and the neutral is a
solid link with only the phase contacts carrying the load being switched. "

To my knowledge (which could be wrong), it is a legal way of supplying a branch circuit with another source of power.

 

[Eric29]

I believe that in some commercial generators, the neutral isn't bonded to the frame; so it's ok to use a switch that doesn't switch the neutral. But most small generators bond the neutral to the frame; so I'm told that it is possible that the circuit could, if it shorted, draw more current than it could handle and not trip the breaker.

With that said, many people use the transfer switch shown.

Normally transfer switches don't transfer the neutral, only the phase conductors.

Quote from your link- "and the neutral is a
solid link with only the phase contacts carrying the load being switched. "

To my knowledge (which could be wrong), it is a legal way of supplying a branch circuit with another source of power.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you hook that up, won't you have two paths to ground in the circuit since it doesn't switch the neutral?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=switched+neutral&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwiLwdznz7bSAhULw4MKHVgEBjQQFggpMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kinsley-group.com%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments%2FCommercial%2520Specs%2FIS_When%2520to%2520switch%2520transfer%2520switch%2520neutral%25203.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGM3yRXzknuaH4BhRlyK8MOLxTKBA

We dont now if the neutral in that particular transfer panel has a switched neutral or not.

But as to your question, Im not sure what youre asking. Two paths to ground?

Current returns to the source, not ground. Even if the neutral wasnt switched, the return current would still flow on the neutral going back to the UPS.

I believe that in some commercial generators, the neutral isn't bonded to the frame; so it's ok to use a switch that doesn't switch the neutral. But most small generators bond the neutral to the frame; so I'm told that it is possible that the circuit could, if it shorted, draw more current than it could handle and not trip the breaker.

With that said, many people use the transfer switch shown.

You are mixing things up here.

A neutral bonded @ multiple points has no effect on the ability of breakers to trip.

The issue with having multiple neutral bonds is that neutral return current CAN flow on unintended grounded pathways (eg. generator frame, conduit, etc.). You only want the neutral bonded in one place(main service panel) to prevent this. For portable generators with bonded neutral, the neutral needs to be unbonded before connecting the generator to a transfer switch with an unswitched neutral that is connected to a main service. This has been discussed at length on here before.

 

[Eric29]

Thanks for the explanation.

That particular transfer switch does not switch the neutral.

We dont now if the neutral in that particular transfer panel has a switched neutral or not.

But as to your question, Im not sure what youre asking. Two paths to ground?

Current returns to the source, not ground. Even if the neutral wasnt switched, the return current would still flow on the neutral going back to the UPS.



You are mixing things up here.

A neutral bonded @ multiple points has no effect on the ability of breakers to trip.

The issue with having multiple neutral bonds is that neutral return current CAN flow on unintended grounded pathways (eg. generator frame, conduit, etc.). You only want the neutral bonded in one place(main service panel). For portable generators with bonded neutral, the neutral needs to be unbonded before connecting the generator to a transfer switch with an unswitched neutral. This has been discussed on here at length before.

 

[theoldwizard1]

KISS principle- buy another UPS for the modem/gateway/switches/network equipment. This saves money and allows the existing UPS to run longer on battery.

We did that at my buddy's house. Worked out fine.