Is 53" thick insulation under Radiant Slab enough?

[Northislander]

Attached a couple pics. of one of the radiant slabs we are working on insulation is 53" thick do you think it will insulate us from the Pacific Ocean that this float will end up sitting in

 

[1949 caddyman]

What are you building?

 

[Northislander]

Floating fishing resort foam will be floating a two story 4000 sg. ft building on top of slab.
Google Nootka Marine Adventures for pics. of completed floats we did in 2014

 

[Ohmthis]

DAMN is all I'm going to say!!!

 

[sms1974]

I would assume the insulation is as much for buoyancy as insulation...

 

[Radiantec Guy]

Cool project! My best answer is, I have no idea!

 

[ChaseDE]

I would think you would have a dedicated engineer/team that would be able to answer these questions on such a project.

 

[TractorJeff]

UH?
No, you probably need another 10"!

 

[rburke65]

Yes....that's exactly what I was thinking....another 10"......that's what she said.....

 

[LX-Markham]

do you think it will insulate us from the Pacific Ocean

I think the question you SHOULD be asking is: Will It Float?

 

[Northislander]

Buoyancy is what it is engineered for. This float has to be finished with 23" of freeboard to match existing floats. Meaning everything from the concrete, framing lumber, sewage and water tank capacity all furniture and appliances weights all have to be determined before thickness of foam is determined. The 53" of foam just happens to work very well as an underslab insulation for radiant

 

[Ohmthis]

No one here is trying to be a smart ***, you're question is SOOO out of our experience. It is an awesome project.

 

[Northislander]

Ohmthis
If anyone is trying to be a smartass it's me. That's why i posted on heating and ac.
everyone is usually debating minimum thickness for underslab insulation so just wanted to throw in a curve ball for conversation.

 

[Dragfluid]

I figured as much as soon as I started reading.

Quite an awesome project! Good luck!

 

[PWC Repair]

I've done some quick calculations based on average hull thickness and mean ocean temperature. Looks like 52 inches would have worked!

 

[HoosierBuddy]

So...is it really going to use radiant heat?

If so...what's the heat source?

I would think that this project would be an ideal candidate for ground source heat pump....except the loops could just hang under the structure in the water. You wouldn't have to bury them.

Phil

 

[Northislander]

Propane Viessmann boilers with cogen. from diesel generators. Geo would be nice but we would have to add more flotation to float all the generators and fuel required to run the heat pumps
These are totally off grid with fuel delivered by barge once a month

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

What is the R-value rating of your proposed insulation?

Will the diesel engines run all the time? If so, you probably will not need any heat to supplement them. You should be able to draw enough BTUs off the diesel coolant system to keep things nice and warm. There are some really nice RV/Yacht water heaters with heat exchangers built in that you plumb to an engine cooling system ... but put a temp mixer on the potable line as you've have 195 degree plus water coming out of the faucet.

I would use a heat exchanger (maybe one of these water heaters) get heat into a hydronic heating system in the "house".

Good luck with your project.

 

[rlitman]

...Will the diesel engines run all the time? If so, you probably will not need any heat to supplement them. You should be able to draw enough BTUs off the diesel coolant system to keep things nice and warm...

That's what I was thinking. Of course the 53" of insulation is just underneath the slab. The other 5 (or more, since I'm not clear on the shape) sides probably won't have that sort of R value.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

That's what I was thinking. Of course the 53" of insulation is just underneath the slab. The other 5 (or more, since I'm not clear on the shape) sides probably won't have that sort of R value.

The manufacturer of the engines should be able to tell you how much heat the engine(s) will throw off ... but I would be really surprised if it wouldn't be MORE than enough to heat your space.

How big is the space to heat? If you insulate the walls and ceilings, make then as airtight as possible ... you might be fine.

What is the lowest anticipated outside air temps?

 

[HoosierBuddy]

The manufacturer of the engines should be able to tell you how much heat the engine(s) will throw off ... but I would be really surprised if it wouldn't be MORE than enough to heat your space.

How big is the space to heat? If you insulate the walls and ceilings, make then as airtight as possible ... you might be fine.

What is the lowest anticipated outside air temps?

I bet you could ballpark the heat output as being very roughly equal to the power output.

Phil

 

[American Locomotive]

You can usually follow the "rule of thirds" with diesel engines.

Of the heat generated from the burning fuel:

1/3rd goes to making the crankshaft spin
1/3rd goes to the cooling system
1/3rd goes out the exhaust

A gallon of diesel fuel has 139,000 BTUs of thermal energy in it. If the heat recovery system can take heat from both the cooling system and exhaust system, you'd be wasting very little of the fuel being burned.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

A local high school went full on co-gen in the '70s with NG powered generators, full on heat recovery on the cooling system and the exhaust used to heat the building and COOL the building with waste heat absorbtion chiller.

They took it all out 15 years ago (about year 30) when the head of maintenance retired as on one else was going to be able to keep it all running. Their combined energy bill went up $10,000 per year immediately...and that was after replacing all the boilers and chillers with brand new equipment.

If you have need for the heat output...there's just nothing more efficient than a properly engineered co-generation system. BUT...it does have maintenance requirements.

Phil

 

[jvitez]

Awesome post, especially for this prairie boy.

 

[Northislander]

Attached a pic. of existing solar array from site. No generators do not run all the time hence the propane boilers. These buildings don't have a high heating load as they only run in the summer the big load is the domestic hot water.

 

[Northislander]

For those interested poured interior floors and walls Saturday unfortunately had to stop the pour before the outer decks got poured due to snow.

 

[Musicinabottle]

On something of that magnitude you have no engineering on it? You should be scouring your engineered prints for specs..........

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

You can usually follow the "rule of thirds" with diesel engines.

Of the heat generated from the burning fuel:

1/3rd goes to making the crankshaft spin
1/3rd goes to the cooling system
1/3rd goes out the exhaust

A gallon of diesel fuel has 139,000 BTUs of thermal energy in it. If the heat recovery system can take heat from both the cooling system and exhaust system, you'd be wasting very little of the fuel being burned.

Even if only 25% of the BTUs in the fuel goes to the cooling system, I'll bet that there will be MORE than enough heat to keep this thing heated. Does it travel all the time? or does it sit? If it sits it probably needs electricity ... the generator could also provide heat when that happens.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

A local high school went full on co-gen in the '70s with NG powered generators, full on heat recovery on the cooling system and the exhaust used to heat the building and COOL the building with waste heat absorbtion chiller.

They took it all out 15 years ago (about year 30) when the head of maintenance retired as on one else was going to be able to keep it all running. Their combined energy bill went up $10,000 per year immediately...and that was after replacing all the boilers and chillers with brand new equipment.

If you have need for the heat output...there's just nothing more efficient than a properly engineered co-generation system. BUT...it does have maintenance requirements.

Sad that they walked away from it.

 

[Northislander]

Even if only 25% of the BTUs in the fuel goes to the cooling system, I'll bet that there will be MORE than enough heat to keep this thing heated. Does it travel all the time? or does it sit? If it sits it probably needs electricity ... the generator could also provide heat when that happens.

permanently anchored in one spot

 

[Northislander]

On something of that magnitude you have no engineering on it? You should be scouring your engineered prints for specs..........

engineered to the inch of flotation this float needs to float with decks at 23" to be even with existing floats.

 

[Brian_WK]

engineered to the inch of flotation this float needs to float with decks at 23" to be even with existing floats.

I think some people don't get this thread was a rhetorical question and that this is a commercial build with plans, specs, engineering etc, not you in your backyard building it from YouTube and the GJ forum.

Looks good I tried Googling it but it more brings up the hunting fishing side and not much of the building unfortunately. Wish there was a walk through of the building/float with full mech areas etc.

Brian

 

[Northislander]

I think some people don't get this thread was a rhetorical question and that this is a commercial build with plans, specs, engineering etc, not you in your backyard building it from YouTube and the GJ forum.

Looks good I tried Googling it but it more brings up the hunting fishing side and not much of the building unfortunately. Wish there was a walk through of the building/float with full mech areas etc.

Brian

I know most people don't appreciate the mechanical side of there homes or shops
They only seem to notice them when there not working

 

[Northislander]

I happened to be on an adjacent job site today and saw our job site from the other side, it gives a better perspective for those interested. You can see the steel submersible work platform that the concrete floats are built on and you can see the different phases of construction from forms only to stripped forms showing the concrete float and buildings

 

[TractorJeff]

Last "Co-Gen" we built had a massive boiler generating steam from the natural gas engines exhaust system. Of course coolant system heat exchangers also. (1875kw)
One before that one made Hot water just under steam temps.(1500kw)
Right now the Generation/Co-Generation market is predominately Natural Gas driven.

 

[Northislander]

Fyi TractorJeff this work site is a couple hundred yards from a nat. gas co. gen plant attached a fact sheet for you

 

[TractorJeff]

Cool! Thanks!

 

[mike93lx]

On something of that magnitude you have no engineering on it? You should be scouring your engineered prints for specs..........

Woosh

 

[jumpstart]

For those interested poured interior floors and walls Saturday unfortunately had to stop the pour before the outer decks got poured due to snow.

Saw something like this on TV recently. Don't remember all of it, but is was an aluminum hull being built for a two story resort building. Crazy amount of aluminum welding. Is this the one featured on that TV show?

 

[Northislander]

Saw something like this on TV recently. Don't remember all of it, but is was an aluminum hull being built for a two story resort building. Crazy amount of aluminum welding. Is this the one featured on that TV show?

All foam and reinforced concrete on this "hull"
I can't imagine what the costs would be to build an aluminum hull to float a building of this size. Not to mention the ongoing maintenance costs