Battle of the Bits: PB Swiss vs Zephyr vs Apex

[D3adrock]

Hi, newby here with a seemingly arbitrary but important question. I've searched everywhere for a definitive answer but no luck. My question is, who makes the best 1/4 insert bits, PB Swiss, Zephyr/Snapon (they're the same), or Apex. I only have experience with the Zephyr ACR philips but from what I can tell they're the best I've ever used. However I know that pb swiss has quite the reputation. The reason that I'm asking is that I'm putting together a bit set with multiples of every bit and that is getting very expensive very quickly. I only want to do this once in about 10 lifetimes. Obviously different people have different criteria for "best" so to specify the categories are: 1. fit, or how well any one bit fits into its fastener, and 2. durability, or how wear resistant and long lasting a bit is. Another question might be is one brand better for one type of bit? For example Zephyr for Philips and PB swiss for Torx? What do you all think? The PB's seem to have a finish. Does that stop them from rusting? The Zephyr I have are great but rust if you so much as look at em funny. So to those of you with more experience than I, who makes the best bits?

 

[T45]

don't buy the best -- buy the zephyr set from apex for $29

problem solved

 

[M6erfan]

I think your premise is flawed. Your asking for consumable items to last "10 lifetimes"...

 

[dnschmidt]

For Phillips I'd recommend a European or Asian brand since these use the DIN standard that incorporates the former Japanese JIS standard. More Jap bikes have been screwed up with a Craftsman Phillips screwdriver than by any other means. I have never heard of Zephyr bits so I don't know where they're made but the P. B. Swiss are winners that's for sure.

 

[D3adrock]

don't buy the best -- buy the zephyr set from apex for $29

problem solved

What? Could you clarify?

I think your premise is flawed. Your asking for consumable items to last "10 lifetimes"...

10 lifetimes might have been a bit of a hyperbole, I'd settle for 2 or 3 (jk). However if I'm going to invest in about 10 of each bit i'd like ones that at the very least wear the slowest and fit the best.

 

[T45]

don't buy the best -- buy the zephyr set from apex for $29

problem solved

http://omegatec.com/zbb-4-zephyr-professional-31-piece-bit-kit.aspx

 

[D3adrock]

http://omegatec.com/zbb-4-zephyr-professional-31-piece-bit-kit.aspx

Thats fantastic and I wish I saw that before. Unfortunately they don't quite have the right bits I need.

 

[T45]

Unfortunately they don't quite have the right bits I need.

 

[D3adrock]

Well, Ive got some zephyr bits, I guess I can buy some pb swiss bits and do some tests before committing to a whole set.

 

[Dave455]

Tough question, mainly because you have included probably the two best makes out there, namely PB Swiss and Zephyr!

You do need to determine how you measure 'best'! I know folks who favour one brand over another because they take greater torque before breaking, but if you never go near that torque level, you're probably better off with a longer lasting (harder) bit that doesn't deform either!

I've done a lot of repetitive assembly work over the years, and that's hard on bits as you use the same size time after time!

I could give you details and examples, but cutting to the chase, I reckon it's pretty much a tie between PB Swiss and Zephyr. PB Swiss are probably slightly ahead for most uses.

Either are superior to Apex, Wera or Wiha, though the latter would be my third choice!

Not sure Snap On bits are made by Zephyr any more. If not, Jury is out on these as I havn't used the new ones enough to tell!

 

[D3adrock]

Tough question, mainly because you have included probably the two best makes out there, namely PB Swiss and Zephyr!

You do need to determine how you measure 'best'! I know folks who favour one brand over another because they take greater torque before breaking, but if you never go near that torque level, you're probably better off with a longer lasting (harder) bit that doesn't deform either!

I've done a lot of repetitive assembly work over the years, and that's hard on bits as you use the same size time after time!

I could give you details and examples, but cutting to the chase, I reckon it's pretty much a tie between PB Swiss and Zephyr. PB Swiss are probably slightly ahead for most uses.

Either are superior to Apex, Wera or Wiha, though the latter would be my third choice!

Not sure Snap On bits are made by Zephyr any more. If not, Jury is out on these as I havn't used the new ones enough to tell!

Thank you, that is extremely helpful! I don't mind details and examples if you should feel so inclined and I'm sure others wouldn't mind either. Could you maybe describe which is harder vs elastic? Personally I prefer harder bits as i'm not using them in extremely high torque situations but I think it would be good for everyone to know so that they can decide based on their intended application. Also do you find that the ACR "teeth" for lack of a better word on their philips has merit over PB swiss's smooth philips?

 

[D3adrock]

ACR is definitely better than smooth when it comes to Phillips.

As a side note, with Apex ACR you have to be a little careful when ordering their ACR bits because they have bits with ACR for both directions of rotation (what you probably want), bits that only have ACR for tightening, and bits that only have ACR for loosening.

I have been very happy with my Zephyr, Wiha, and Apex bits. Wiha is getting to be a little touchy lately because they are switching a lot of their bits away from being German made and the quality of the non-German stuff is lower. Some sites that sell Wiha often aren't keeping up with the changes so they don't have the right COO shown as well so it can be a little bit of a guessing game as to what you will get until things settle down and re-establish themselves over time.

I can't remember if Zephyr does it as well, but with Apex you can usually choose whether you want your bit to have medium hardness or extra hardness depending on what you want to do with the bit. The extra hard bits will resist wear better and they will usually break if overstressed instead of deforming.

Zephyr does indeed offer different hardness's and they differentiate by naming some bits "machine screw" (the medium hard) and others for "self tapping screws" (extra hard). Zephyr also has the directional ACR which are present in the above mentioned set which is one of the reasons that set doesn't work for me.

 

[T45]

Zephyr does indeed offer different hardness's and they differentiate by naming some bits "machine screw" (the medium hard) and others for "self tapping screws" (extra hard). Zephyr also has the directional ACR which are present in the above mentioned set which is one of the reasons that set doesn't work for me.

Can't find what you're looking for? Please call or fax us with your inquiry: 800-888-4005 Fax 818-264-1414

While I share dave's view on pb above, for the OP I'd just give them a call and get exactly what you need.

 

[mikebaker1129]

I have no experience with PB Swiss,but my Zephyr bits bought from Omega in the little red box have been amazing.
I am pretty sure they have a $50 minimum.

 

[Dave455]

Thank you, that is extremely helpful! I don't mind details and examples if you should feel so inclined and I'm sure others wouldn't mind either. Could you maybe describe which is harder vs elastic? Personally I prefer harder bits as i'm not using them in extremely high torque situations but I think it would be good for everyone to know so that they can decide based on their intended application. Also do you find that the ACR "teeth" for lack of a better word on their philips has merit over PB swiss's smooth philips?

Well, I met Max Baumann a few years back, and I don't think there's anybody out there who knows more about hex keys and screwdriver bits than he does!
He explained, for example, that nobody wants a bent hex key, so as you increase the torque, his deform elastically and return to the original shape, until you get to breaking point! At less then breaking torque, his last longer than any others! He's right too - I have hex keys by other makers that are bent, or the tips are worn, but not by PB! I think he uses the same logic with screwdriver bits!

I have a set of ball hex drivers that have seen probably 25 years of use in my hands, and were second hand when I got them! They show no wear..!

I have a complete (ish) set of hex bits that I use at base and throw in my go bag. Again, the oldest are probably 15 years old, have seen regular use, and apart from needing a polish a few years back have no wear!

I once had an assembly job that required me to do up a pair of button head screws. I had to use bell hex bits as I was working at an angle, and over about 300 screws broke a box of 10 wera 2.5 mm bits. I used just one PB Swiss on the remaining 700 or so screws!

With regard to Phillips bits, I have to say that I don't use them much as here in the U.K. they were pretty much ousted by Pozidriv in the early 70's! When I do, the ACR profile is definitely an advantage! Although not a domestic product, Zephyr bits are pretty much industry standard in the British aerospace industry!

I find that unless I'm are working with decent quality screws, both Phillips and Pozidriv can be tough on the drivers, so when working with mediocre screws I much prefer to use a bit driver with replaceable bits - usually PB for Pozi and Zephyr ACR for Phillips, though I have some Stainless Wera drivers in Pozidriv that also have a sort of ACR pattern, and they seem to lasting really well!


Sorry - that's not very conclusive for any brand really, just what I've found!

 

[fivespdcat]

It also depends on what you're doing with them. Are these for a ratcheting screwdriver? Impact driver? For impacts i personally have taken a liking to Qualtool Qryptonite. They seem to last forever and have outperformed any of the big box bits I've used. They can be had at decent prices on amazon.

 

[Frottage]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd just tag on to the most recent GJ thread on the issue. I recently gave up on my big box brand ratcheting screwdriver. Based on recommendations here I grabbed a Williams unit - great recommendation, thanks gents! Next I went looking for a bit set. I liked the look of the Wiha set, but didn't like the "manufactured in Switzerland, Germany, and Viet Nam" COO. I'd love a Snap On set, but not at $175. So, based on several recommendations here I picked up the Zephyr ZBB-4 set. I ordered through Omega Technologies: http://omegatec.com/zbb-4-zephyr-professional-31-piece-bit-kit.aspx They told me it would be about about 10 days and they wouldn't charge my card until it ships - and they did exactly as they said. The set was exactly what I was looking for, 30 bits in Phillips, Slotted, Torx, and Hex in a nifty red metal box. Good vender, and nice bit set!

 

[JohnDeere1]

I have a bunch of apex bits anni find them all the time cheap because there's alot of factories and a Ford truck plant around me. I like them alot especially the square drive for sockets. I also have Snap on bits and consider them equal.

 

[mikebaker1129]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd just tag on to the most recent GJ thread on the issue. I recently gave up on my big box brand ratcheting screwdriver. Based on recommendations here I grabbed a Williams unit - great recommendation, thanks gents! Next I went looking for a bit set. I liked the look of the Wiha set, but didn't like the "manufactured in Switzerland, Germany, and Viet Nam" COO. I'd love a Snap On set, but not at $175. So, based on several recommendations here I picked up the Zephyr ZBB-4 set. I ordered through Omega Technologies: http://omegatec.com/zbb-4-zephyr-professional-31-piece-bit-kit.aspx They told me it would be about about 10 days and they wouldn't charge my card until it ships - and they did exactly as they said. The set was exactly what I was looking for, 30 bits in Phillips, Slotted, Torx, and Hex in a nifty red metal box. Good vender, and nice bit set!

I have the same set with the Williams ratcheting screwdriver and they are a awesome combination!

 

[Wamsutta]

I've never tried PB Swiss bits but Zephyr and Apex have worked very well. I agree, they can get pricey real quick. Believe it or not, Snap-on with their free shipping is probably the best source if shopping online.

 

[mmason7764]

Driving deck screws with an impact driver the Apex seem to last the longest, Zephyr almost as long. Haven't tried PB Swiss so cannot comment on them.

Have some Qualtool insert bits and nut setters and they are good, just haven't used them enough to compare to the above.

I'll give honorable mention to the Makita bits made in Japan, they last a while. Haven't tried the set made in the Peoples Republic of China and probably won't.

The ACR ribs on the Apex and Zephyr seem to make a difference and to me are worth the price. Probably the most important part of the job is to have enough down force on the impact driver before pulling the trigger.

Noticed that Zoro carries Apex bits but haven't ordered any from them yet.

Mark

 

[48548]

Here are some of mine... the black holders are all apex... my dad got the old ones in Vietnam doing sheet metal work... the new ones are acr... the pocket drivers I got on eBay as they were cheap and came with zephyr bits...

 

[48548]

A few more pics....


If apex was good enough for planes in Vietnam good enough for me. Also those bits for the most part still work awesome and I never broke one he gave me.... but I like wera and wiha as well.

 

[Olafur]

Several major companies make many different types of bits, with different coatings to reduce cam-out, and different shanks.

It would take years for someone to compare all the offerings from Wiha, Wera, PB, Apex, Zephyr, Felo, Vessel, Koken, KTC , just to name a few. Let alone all the nameless bits from all over the world. And without scientific testing and careful documentation the result would be nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

So basically we got nothing. We really have no idea who makes the best bits in the world - or even if any particular brand is even on the top 10 list.

Because there is no list.

 

[jgromada]

I've never heard of ACR Phillips. What is that about?

 

[LB-1911]

I've never heard of ACR Phillips. What is that about?

Some background

The ACR® Ribbed PHILLIPS® Cruciform Drive System advanced design keeps the driver securely mated to the screw during fastener removal, eliminating recess damage and damage to surrounding areas. The results are securely removed screws every time with lower costs, more productive workers and fewer drill outs.

ACR® RIBBED PHILLIPS® CRUCIFORM DRIVE SYSTEM

 

[BMack37]

PB Swiss has great fitment but their bits wear faster than Felo, Wiha and Wera. I was quite disappointed in the PB Swiss, especially because of the cost. Felo is probably my favorite and the only German bit actually made in Germany.

I haven't tested Zephyr.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

PB Swiss has by far the best finish. I’m going 5+ years of daily use with an impact driver and they show no signs of wear. I think there flat, torx and hex are the best out there period. The Philips are very good but can’t say 100% theiy are better then zephyr

 

[134k]

I ordered the ZBB-4 from Omegatec earlier this month. Right now the production run is behind, so I was quoted a 4 week lead time until they ship.

 

[jgromada]

Some background

The ACR® Ribbed PHILLIPS® Cruciform Drive System advanced design keeps the driver securely mated to the screw during fastener removal, eliminating recess damage and damage to surrounding areas. The results are securely removed screws every time with lower costs, more productive workers and fewer drill outs.

ACR® RIBBED PHILLIPS® CRUCIFORM DRIVE SYSTEM

Isn't that supposed to be the idea of Pozidriv too?

Is this supposed to be a special ACR screw as well as bit?

 

[mikebaker1129]

I ordered the ZBB-4 from Omegatec earlier this month. Right now the production run is behind, so I was quoted a 4 week lead time until they ship.

They are worth the wait. You will be pleased.