New 240v outlet wiring

[gti16vman]

So the previous owner of our house installed a 240V outlet right below the breaker box in the garage. The odd thing is that the wires are run into the box, but only the common and ground are connected, not the hot wires, they are capped off. I assume they were hooked up at some point and then disconnected it before selling the house. Breaker box is fed by 200A and is a GE TLM3020C.

I am going to get a welder and will need a dedicated outlet for it when I use it. I am going to replace the plug in the wall with the correct style and I am getting a 50A GFCI dual pole breaker for the box to feed the new outlet. I am going to pull a permit as I obviously want this signed off on it. When we had the inspection done a couple years ago, it said the common/ground rail was overused on one side (and it clearly is). So I know I functionally could tie into the ground bus on the left side of the panel that has plenty of places and then put the breaker in the open space on the right, but will the inspector not sign off on it because of the overused right side? If so, can I expand the bus bar on the right side to clean some of that up?

My plan is new outlet wired via 12awg romex through the wall to the strain relief in the bottom of the breaker box, common and ground to left buss and black and red to each pole of the 240V breaker placed in the open spot on the right. The outlet is currently in one of the old work boxes, which I think that will work. Is this all functionally up to code?

TIA for any help!

 

[eddieK]

So the previous owner of our house installed a 240V outlet right below the breaker box in the garage. The odd thing is that the wires are run into the box, but only the common and ground are connected, not the hot wires, they are capped off. I assume they were hooked up at some point and then disconnected it before selling the house. Breaker box is fed by 200A and is a GE TLM3020C.

I am going to get a welder and will need a dedicated outlet for it when I use it. I am going to replace the plug in the wall with the correct style and I am getting a 50A GFCI dual pole breaker for the box to feed the new outlet. I am going to pull a permit as I obviously want this signed off on it. When we had the inspection done a couple years ago, it said the common/ground rail was overused on one side (and it clearly is). So I know I functionally could tie into the ground bus on the left side of the panel that has plenty of places and then put the breaker in the open space on the right, but will the inspector not sign off on it because of the overused right side? If so, can I expand the bus bar on the right side to clean some of that up?

My plan is new outlet wired via 12awg romex through the wall to the strain relief in the bottom of the breaker box, common and ground to left buss and black and red to each pole of the 240V breaker placed in the open spot on the right. The outlet is currently in one of the old work boxes, which I think that will work. Is this all functionally up to code?

TIA for any help!

The Welder nomenclature will say the minimum and maximum protection...or at least the maximum with RLA (running load amps).

Size the wire and the breaker by this info ...or over size the wire to match the 50A breaker...I believe that is #8. And the Welder pig tail (plug) will have a configuration that is correspondent to the amp protection required.

The two wires nutted off in the box look like #10? (30 amp)

 

[sberry]

You do not need gfci. The simple explanation here is to use 10 and a 30A breaker to 6-50 outlet for a 200A class mig. It doesn't matter if one side is full as long as there is only 1 white wire under a screw. sounds like the inspector is unsure what he is looking at.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Dont need to waste money on a GFCI breaker. Get a regular 50a breaker.

And looks like u have multiple neutrals under the same lug. Need to correct that. only 1 neutral per lug allowed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You do not need gfci. The simple explanation here is to use 10 and a 30A breaker to 6-50 outlet for a 200A class mig. It doesn't matter if one side is full as long as there is only 1 white wire under a screw. sounds like the inspector is unsure what he is looking at.

The wire is already there. He just needs to hook it up.

 

[gti16vman]

Well, this was part of my question. I have not done anything with pulling a permit or getting it inspected (probably a little too long winded in that first post).

I just wonder, if I do what I need to do correctly, will it be passed knowing those neutral wires are doubled up? Will I be held to current standards for the whole panel when all I am doing is adding 1 breaker and I do it the correct way? If I do need to fix the bus bar, how do I go about doing that, can I add one to the right of the existing one and bond it to the existing one?

 

[sberry]

I am on a phone so pics are an issue but regardless of inspection 2 neutrals, the whites under 1 screw needs to be fixed. You can put 2 here under 1, you can even wire nut an extension to reach the other side, even a couple 3 together to a pigtail of you absolutely have to. You can screw another bar to the box for the bare ones.
A standard welder outlet is 50A All the machines that come with a 50A plug are allowed to connect to 50A breaker, it doesnt mean they need a traditional full size wire the way a range or oven does.
A 200 class compact MIG requires only 14 wire but if you use this need to reduce the breaker size.
Once the wire is larger than needed for the machine it needs to only be be big enough for short circuit protection.

 

[sberry]

You can connect that wire to breakers 30-50. If this is for compact mig simply use a 30 and change the outlet. If you want to use other machines use a 50.
The only units come with a cord larger than a 12 are 250 migs.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I would add a ground bar and get all of those grounds off the neutral bar. That panel has a LOT of circuits in it.

I assume there is no outside disconnect, so the ground and neutral are bonded in the panel?

 

[gti16vman]

I think just to future proof what I am doing, I will go with a 50A breaker and the 12awg wire. The run is only 2-3 ft at most.

After doing all of my reading, I am thinking that exact thing, move all the grounds to a ground bar in the box and then separate all the commons to one per lug. I do not see any kind of disconnect, as the power meter is directly on the opposite wall as the panel, on the outside the house.

So then my question becomes, how do I add a ground bar? Does that need to be bonded to the existing busbar? Being that there are ~32 ground wires, do I need a 32+ position ground bar or can I double some of those up?

Looking at the label on the inside of the door of the panel, it lists eqp grd kits as TGL1, TGL2, TGL3, TGL4, TGL8, and TGL20. Looking at those, the biggest is 14 positions.

 

[penright]

I think just to future proof what I am doing, I will go with a 50A breaker and the 12awg wire. The run is only 2-3 ft at most.

Wait till one of the experts jumps in here, I am pretty sure you can NOT have 12awg after a 50A breaker. I think you have to use #8. If that is what you want, it looks like you could use the existing wire to pull the new. In fact as short of run, assuming the conduit sticking out is connected to the box (Since it is single wires, it should be), you could probably push it.

Definitely wait till one of the experts comment on your wire size first.

 

[sberry]

If the wire was 12 single circuit in a pipe it would be legal at 50, since its a cable it needs to be a size larger, it needs to be 10 for 50.

 

[gti16vman]

Swapping that wire out is no big deal if that is the case. The welder I am looking at recommends a 50A GFCI breaker to NEMA 6-50r outlet. It says power input is 240 VAC, 20 A. Regardless, I can size that wire at whatever I need it to be.

 

[sberry]

Most inspectors basically mind their business. But this obviously hasn't been inspected prior to this and any worth a pinch of poo would have some friendly advice at minimum to fix this. I just got on a pc with big screen, yikes, I am not sure if a bunch is worse than 2 and at times this could seem insignificant but its not. I had a call a while back where this turned out to be the culprit.
What welder are you getting, this sounds like a knockoff import? I have never read instructions for gfci to one.

 

[sberry]

Swapping that wire out is no big deal if that is the case. The welder I am looking at recommends a 50A GFCI breaker to NEMA 6-50r outlet. It says power input is 240 VAC, 20 A. Regardless, I can size that wire at whatever I need it to be.

It looks to be a 10, it goes to a 30 outlet, there is nothing wrong with the wire. Change the outlet and put a simple 30A breaker in. Add a bar to the box to move the bare too and fix the whites.
You need to do work more than you need to worry about inspectors, most do not want to come look at this and with good pics you have 3 or 4 of the best inspectors you can find here. There is about zero chance of burning something down with this but there are other issues to worry about and they have been well explained here.

 

[gti16vman]

Ok, gotcha and thanks for the help. It is a cheap welder, a HF one. Really, I am looking to learn and play around with one for cheap to see if I like it/am good enough at it. In case it isn't for me, I don't want to drop a fortune on one. My dad has quite a bit of welding experience and is going to teach me a little. Honestly, I imagine I won't be doing all that much. I take it as a beneficial side effect that I fix the wiring in the panel as well.

Looking at the label, it looks like the place to add a ground bar is to the right of the neutral bar, picture attached. I am thinking that perhaps the two holes in the panel are designed for it to be mounted there? Can I get a generic 23 position ground from home depot, mount it there and then double each hole with 2 ground wires? I feel I need to get all the grounds out of the common bus bar to make sure there is only 1 common wire per hole on it. I figure there should be some that I can swing to the other side since there are so few on the left side that are taken.

 

[sberry]

Yes, that is where it goes. It is sposed to be tapped and threaded connection which would be especially important if a bond wire or strap wasn't used from bar to bar. The bond basically needs to be as good as the largest wire.

 

[sberry]

There are a couple ways to fix it, some would depend on the time and place I might be at and if I cared how neat it was, the electric doesn't really know but would disconnects a bunch of while and pull them up in to the top of the box and simply extend them over to the other side, could even go around the bottom for some.
Might even screw a generic bar up top and run a bond wire, again if I ran short of holes extending commons to the other side.

 

[gti16vman]

Perfect, thanks again. As I studied that diagram more, I realized that is an open bonding screw directly above those two holes in the panel I had circled in red. So I should be able to install a ground bar there, bond it to that screw and then move all grounds to that new bar. Then I will separate out all commons on the existing bars and that should make it a lot safer than it is today.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So the previous owner of our house installed a 240V outlet right below the breaker box in the garage.

Your picture is not real clear, but that outlet looks like a 120V, 30A RV outlet !

 

[gti16vman]

Still not the best picture, but a little better. Plug says Nema 10-30R. I assumed it was 240 (and looks like a dryer connection) since it had red and black hot wires coming up in the breaker box. I have no idea what they used it for. I have a 3 car garage and the breaker panel is in the corner right between the single garage door and a sink in the garage.

 

[pattenp]

That's the old style ungrounded dryer outlet, two hots and a neutral.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok, gotcha and thanks for the help. It is a cheap welder, a HF one. Really, I am looking to learn and play around with one for cheap to see if I like it/am good enough at it. In case it isn't for me, I don't want to drop a fortune on one. My dad has quite a bit of welding experience and is going to teach me a little. Honestly, I imagine I won't be doing all that much. I take it as a beneficial side effect that I fix the wiring in the panel as well.

Looking at the label, it looks like the place to add a ground bar is to the right of the neutral bar, picture attached. I am thinking that perhaps the two holes in the panel are designed for it to be mounted there? Can I get a generic 23 position ground from home depot, mount it there and then double each hole with 2 ground wires? I feel I need to get all the grounds out of the common bus bar to make sure there is only 1 common wire per hole on it. I figure there should be some that I can swing to the other side since there are so few on the left side that are taken.

No u cant use a generic ground bar.

U need to use the one that is listed for your panel.

Is this your main service panel meaning that the only thing ahead of it is a meter/no disconnect?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Is this your main service panel meaning that the only thing ahead of it is a meter/no disconnect?

From post 10:

I do not see any kind of disconnect, as the power meter is directly on the opposite wall as the panel, on the outside the house.

 

[gti16vman]

No u cant use a generic ground bar.

U need to use the one that is listed for your panel.

Is this your main service panel meaning that the only thing ahead of it is a meter/no disconnect?

Yes, this is the main service panel, no disconnect that I am aware of, since the meter is directly on the opposite side of the wall. So with the listed accessories on the label, it looks like the biggest that I can go is 14 position (TGL4). If I do that, can I double each hole with a ground as it seems that would be the only way to clear up the common bus to give enough places for one per hole? Also, it doesn't look like that kit comes with a way to bond it to the existing bars, so does it just connect via the panel that it is touching?

EDIT: There are some newer GE grounding kits (TGK series) with more positions, but not sure if those officially will work since they came out after the panel and I can't find a GE cross reference with them.

 

[pattenp]

That panel pictured has a main disconnect. It's the big vertical breaker at the top of the panel, unless I'm seeing things.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

From post 10:

Thx i missed that as i quickly scrolld with my iPhone...

Yes, this is the main service panel, no disconnect that I am aware of, since the meter is directly on the opposite side of the wall. So with the listed accessories on the label, it looks like the biggest that I can go is 14 position (TGL4). If I do that, can I double each hole with a ground as it seems that would be the only way to clear up the common bus to give enough places for one per hole? Also, it doesn't look like that kit comes with a way to bond it to the existing bars, so does it just connect via the panel that it is touching?

EDIT: There are some newer GE grounding kits (TGK series) with more positions, but not sure if those officially will work since they came out after the panel and I can't find a GE cross reference with them.

U can double up the grounds if its listed to do so.

If u can find a longer bar i would email GE asking them which bars are comparible with your model panel.

I have emailed GE in the past about compatable replacement breakers for an older TQL panel and they responded back in less than a day. Theyre very responsive.

 

[gti16vman]

That panel pictured has a main disconnect. It's the big vertical breaker at the top of the panel, unless I'm seeing things.

My apologies, I was thinking something between the panel and the power meter, like this was a sub panel.

I have emailed GE in the past about compatable replacement breakers for an older TQL panel and they responded back in less than a day. Theyre very responsive.

Thanks, better to leave no doubt, I will e-mail them and see what they say.

 

[sberry]

I would stick a bar in it, find a screw that matches the holes. make it fit and run a jumper if I didn't feel the connection was secure, meet the intent of this and fix a real booger.

 

[AntonLargiader]

That panel pictured has a main disconnect. It's the big vertical breaker at the top of the panel, unless I'm seeing things.

I don't see how that answers anything. The typical question is whether there is a disconnect ahead of the panel, usually asked because of the 3-wire/4-wire issue. The fact that it's a main breaker panel isn't really newsworthy.

 

[gti16vman]

Ok, got word back from GE today. I can double up grounds, but I have to use only one of the kits listed since the newer ones are not UL listed for this panel. So I ordered one of those today, which will give me 14 grounding positions that I can double up to 28 ground positions and I think I should be good to then spread out the commons.

Thanks again to all for the insight.

 

[TractorJeff]

I would at least put in #8 wire on a 50 amp breaker feeding a 50 amp welding outlet. Reasoning that someday down the road a higher capacity welder could get plugged in that outlet.
IMOC!

 

[gti16vman]

As for that part, I decided to stick with a 30A breaker and #12. If I end up needing more power later, I will address that then.

 

[pattenp]

I don't see how that answers anything. The typical question is whether there is a disconnect ahead of the panel, usually asked because of the 3-wire/4-wire issue. The fact that it's a main breaker panel isn't really newsworthy.

That's rude. I was responding to the OP that the main breaker is a disconnect. Your response was uncalled for.

 

[AntonLargiader]

That's rude. I was responding to the OP that the main breaker is a disconnect. Your response was uncalled for.

That wasn't my intent. I'd asked about an upstream disconnect, as had Wylie, and the OP said there was none that he could see. I didn't see your response as being relevant to that question or any other... that's all.

 

[JimRB]

I used 12 gauge for my 20 amp 120 volt welder. Actually all my receptacles in my house are fed with 12 gauge. I used 10 gauge for my 240v 30 amp welding circuit with 6-50 receptacle.

 

[pattenp]

That wasn't my intent. I'd asked about an upstream disconnect, as had Wylie, and the OP said there was none that he could see. I didn't see your response as being relevant to that question or any other... that's all.

The OP stated in post #10 he didn't see any kind of a disconnect. I didn't know if he didn't realize the main breaker is the disconnect. I felt your statement about my comment was insulting.

 

[gti16vman]

I used 12 gauge for my 20 amp 120 volt welder. Actually all my receptacles in my house are fed with 12 gauge. I used 10 gauge for my 240v 30 amp welding circuit with 6-50 receptacle.

I am pretty sure I will need new wire regardless, as I don't think what is in there is long enough for what I need. Just checked a few wire size calculators and you are right, #10 is what is recommended.

 

[sberry]

The welder calc doesn't actually apply directly to welders.