220 / 240 from Meter Panel to Shop (Garage)

[billrigsby]

New here and could not find the exact answer I was looking for.....

I have a 4.5 car garage / shop about 100' from the house ?
Why so far I don't know?

I currently have 100A service to the home (small 1400sf log) and
I am going to run 220 / 240 to the shop. I plan on coming straight
off the meter (house side not utility side)

I have 4 conductor #2 direct bury wire and my question is......
Do I need a breaker box, shut-off, or combination of breaker / shut-off
after the meter in my sub panel box?

Obviously, since I will not be coming out of the main panel box
I will want a breaker, thinking 70A, will that be sufficient oir is a shut-off required?

Load will be a 220v Compressor, Lincoln Arc Welder, 5 Dual 8' Fluorescents,
and general shop tools for now, more lighting in the future.

Currently only 120 is run to the garage / shop.


Bill

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What kind of main service panel do u have?

Or is it a divorced meter/solo meter with inside main service panel?

If all u have is a meter, does it have dual lugs?

 

[tailshaft56]

If you run a separate panel that far you will need a disconnect. you can use a breaker for the disconnect. Seems odd to run a split panel meter hub for something under 200 amp.

My reference (wiring a house) lists 200, 300, and 400 amp meter bases

I think you are trying to avoid another circuit from your 100 amp panel. You will need a new 200 amp meter hub and the appropriate feed from the weather head to your new meter hub. Yours is probably sized for 100 amp. The utility may also need to replace their feed although I suspect it is large enough.

It would be cleaner to just up to a 200 amp panel and run you sub from that. While it may be more money in the end you wind up with a more conventional setup. If you do most of the work yourself the cost difference may not be that great. That would also give you some additional space for circuits in your home.

 

[billrigsby]

What kind of main service panel do u have?

Or is it a divorced meter/solo meter with inside main service panel?

If all u have is a meter, does it have dual lugs?

I am guessing this is "divorced"
as the meter box and main panel box are separate..........

What you see coming out of the Right/Bottom is what is
currently feeding the shop / garage.

Not sure what you mean by dual lugs, but I think NO,
however there is room for two pairs of #2 wire on the lugs

 

[billrigsby]

If you run a separate panel that far you will need a disconnect. you can use a breaker for the disconnect.

I want the breaker / separate panel right next to the meter/breaker box,
in the garage I have a breaker box for the 1. lights and 2. the outlets,
Just need 220 / 240

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Room on what lugs?

Yes that is a divorced meter and i doubt the pan has dual lugs.

Since it has a seal and lock on it, u wont be able to tell and if it only has single set of lugs then u wont be able to come directly off the existing meter pan.

Without upgrading your only choice is to feed from that panel below the meter...

So as i said before, u will either have to replace the meter pan with a dual lug pan OR replace the main service panel with

 

[billrigsby]

Looking at a box like this for the breaker box next to the meter....

 

[tailshaft56]

I would guess separate panel and meter base but it may very well be a combo. I am planning a new shop. First thing is new underground feed. (or a very short shop. LOL)

 

[billrigsby]

Room on what lugs?
Since it has a seal and lock on it, u wont be able to tell and if it only has single set of lugs then u wont be able to come directly off the existing meter pan.

That is not a problem, have a key!
DON'T ASK
So if the single lugs will accept two pair of #2 wire,
is what I want to do "proper" with the separate breaker box?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Lugs will be single wire only.

Thats why i said u need two sets of lugs.

And current wire should be #4 cu or #2 al.

But u cant use those sizes for a feed to a garage or shop.

U will need #3 cu or #1 al.

If u have the keys to the meter pan, then u could take some pics of the inside for us. HOWEVER, u will have to pull the meter to do so so make sure to shut off all loads first.

And only if u feel comfortable doing so...

 

[billrigsby]

If u have the keys to the meter pan, then u could take some pics of the inside for us.

This is the lug(s) in the meter box...

This is another meter box (similar) and this is what I want to do...

If the wire fits is this OK, or are the dissimilar metals the only issue?

 

[billrigsby]

If the wire fits is this OK, or are the dissimilar metals the only issue?

If that is the only issue I could run copper from the meter
to the new breaker box and the aluminium to the garage?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The issue is 2 wires under 1 lug. It looks like the lugs are only big enough for 1 wire. U would have to research the listing on the pan to see if the lugs are rated for more than 1 wire but i highly doubt they are.

Any labels on the cover of the pan?

Can u take another pic thats zoomed out of the whole bottom part of the meter pan with the cover off.

Where does that white al wire go?

Where does the wire under it go?

 

[billrigsby]

Any labels on the cover of the pan?

Can u take another pic thats zoomed out of the whole bottom part of the meter pan with the cover off.

Where does that white al wire go?

Where does the wire under it go?

The white wire is actually a copper ground (flash made it look white) going to the breaker box,
The one under that is the neutral wire going to the breaker box.

The issue is 2 wires under 1 lug. It looks like the lugs are only big enough for 1 wire. U would have to research the listing on the pan to see if the lugs are rated for more than 1 wire but i highly doubt they are.

So, back to my question, it "fits" is it OK, even copper and aluminium?
As far as "rated" how big of an issue is that if it works?
Trust me this would not be the first thing around here that is
"not to code" but "safe"?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Best/simplest solution : Install a NEW combination meter pan/load center. The garage is just another 240V branch circuit.

200 Amp 20-Space 40-Circuit BR Type Main Breaker Meter Breaker Top Only Surface EUSERC

 

[Radix2]

Actually the simplest is just to add a 2pole breaker to that main panel and run to the garage- is there really no way to make 2 spaces in there? I'd put a small sub panel right next to it if needed to make room, then you avoid messing with the meter and you are adding a panel there anyway.

 

[Bert_]

I have yet to see a problem caused by putting two wires under a lug, as long as the wires were the same material and they fit well in the lug. Use some common sense and if both wires fit well and have firm contact then I don't see an issue.

That issue aside, I don't think those lugs will accept a second wire, just no enough room.
Also when you tap ahead of the main like you are considering you MUST do a load calc. to be sure you won't overload the service.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The white wire is actually a copper ground (flash made it look white) going to the breaker box,
The one under that is the neutral wire going to the breaker box.

So, back to my question, it "fits" is it OK, even copper and aluminum?
As far as "rated" how big of an issue is that if it works?
Trust me this would not be the first thing around here that is
"not to code" but "safe"?

copper and aluminum should not be under the same lug.

I would not put 2 hot conductors under the same lug as u most likely wont be able to get the same required torque on both of them. this can create a high resistance connection and overheating.

Typically the GEC for the electrode goes to the main service panel neutral bar NOT the neutral on the meter pan. This could create issues with the neutral connection.

IMPO, there isnt enough room on those lugs for another large wire.

Have done a load calc on the house and garage?

Would u be able to do Radix suggestion??

 

[billrigsby]

Have done a load calc on the house and garage?

Would u be able to do Radix suggestion??

No I have not done a load calculation on the house at this point,

and as far as doing Radix suggestion it may be possible, I have one breaker that has a wire going to it but for the life of me I can't figure out what or if it controls anything?

I have turned everything off but it and checked every light and outlet in the house, I have had everything on but it and also checked every light and outlet in the house, so that is just in my opinion a useless spot (if it is controlling anything it's nothing I'm missing because it's been turned off for the last two and a half years) and I will gain a spot when I get rid of the breaker that's currently feeding the garage.

Unfortunately there on either side of the panel so I might have to get creative but I think that might be the best route to go.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Actually the simplest is just to add a 2pole breaker to that main panel and run to the garage ...

It sounds like existing box is only 100A and OP wants 60-90A in the garage.

 

[billrigsby]

It sounds like existing box is only 100A and OP wants 60-90A in the garage.

Actually 50-60 would be adequate.
I currently have this, and a 50' extension cord..........

As you can imagine, in Colorado, In the winter....
When I do most of my tractor / implement repair - fabrication,
rolling out the arc welder, in the snow, hooking up the extension cord,
and being half way between the house and the garage, gets old quick.

So this is mostly for my convenience, and I miss my 240V (12.5 A) compressor

 

[billrigsby]

So if I am not welding,
while the dryer is running,
the hot tub is heating
and the well pump is running

I should be OKAY

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It sounds like existing box is only 100A and OP wants 60-90A in the garage.

Sure but without load calcs that means nothing.

Since we dont know what the load from the house is then we dont know if 100a is enough.

Also, lets say load calc for both combined is over 100a, the service entrance wire may only be sized for 100a based on the main breaker rating and would need to be changed.

There is too many unknowns to know if he can do what he wants to do.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So if I am not welding,
while the dryer is running,
the hot tub is heating
and the well pump is running

I should be OKAY

Can u tell what gauge the service entrance wire is?

 

[billrigsby]

Can u tell what gauge the service entrance wire is?

#2 triplex

 

[billrigsby]

There is too many unknowns to know if he can do what he wants to do.

I am already running my arc welder from a socket about a foot from the main panel ( with a 50 foot extension cord )
I just want the convenience of doing it from my garage/shop.

 

[billrigsby]

Sure but without load calcs that means nothing.

Maybe I need to better understand what you mean by a load calc,
because I'm not sure I understand what that term technically means.
Are you referring to turning everything on all at once and seeing what load it is pulling?

If that's the case I'm going to guess that the dryer, hot tub, well pump, hot water heater, just that would probably be over 100 amps. But everything's not always running all at once?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

#2 triplex

Are u referring to the overhead drop wire or the wire inside the riser pipe?

Is it al or cu?

I am already running my arc welder from a socket about a foot from the main panel ( with a 50 foot extension cord )
I just want the convenience of doing it from my garage/shop.

yes but u also said u had other loads u wanted to hookup.

Maybe I need to better understand what you mean by a load calc,
because I'm not sure I understand what that term technically means.
Are you referring to turning everything on all at once and seeing what load it is pulling?

If that's the case I'm going to guess that the dryer, hot tub, well pump, hot water heater, just that would probably be over 100 amps. But everything's not always running all at once?

No that is not a load calc. A load calc is where is add up the loads based on NEC guidelines.

Adding up the breakers feeding equipment is a common misconception.

Here is a load calc sheet in excel spreadsheet form made by none other than Mike Holt

 

[billrigsby]

Are u referring to the overhead drop wire or the wire inside the riser pipe?

Both, and the wire from the meter to the breaker panel

Is it al or cu?

AL

yes but u also said u had other loads u wanted to hookup.

The only other 240 is the 12.5A compressor,
and lights, then standard shop tools; computer, drill press, AC hand tools, etc.


No that is not a load calc. A load calc is where is add up the loads based on NEC guidelines.

Adding up the breakers feeding equipment is a common misconception.

Did not think so, Heck if my well pump, ALL my AC Baseboards were on and the dryer was running, I would hit 100A

Here is a load calc sheet in excel spreadsheet form made by none other than Mike Holt

I will look into the spreadsheet, thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ok so you are limited to 100a due to the #2 al no matter if you hookup another panel to the meter pan.

If you hookup another panel to the existing service u could overheat the #2 AL...

No way around a service upgrade.

 

[billrigsby]

Well I have enough #4 Triplex to re-run it, if I can just find someone to climb the poles and do the work. I'll climb trees but I ain't climbing power poles.

I'm still in good with lots of people that the local utility, ( did the tree work for them for 15 years ) and with a lot of the guys that do the new power lines for them. So maybe I'll look into that.

If I upgrade the triplex, I don't "technically" have to redo the breaker box correct? Seems like an unnecessary expense since there won't be much if any upgrading going on other than the garage.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well I have enough #4 Triplex to re-run it, if I can just find someone to climb the poles and do the work. I'll climb trees but I ain't climbing power poles.

I'm still in good with lots of people that the local utility, and with a lot of the guys that do the new power lines for them. So maybe I'll look into that.

If I upgrade the triplex, I don't "technically" have to redo the breaker box correct? Seems like an unnecessary expense since there won't be much if any upgrading going on other than the garage.

im not sure why u keep using the word tri-plex.

Tri-plex is not a listed building wire.

Tri-plex is used by the PoCo for the overhead service drop. It is different than the wires in the riser pipe/mast.

And responding to your previous comment about replacing it, u wouldnt be doing that, the PoCo would since they own the service drop wire.

#4 is smaller than what you currently have and is too small for 200a.

U would have to change out the wire from the weatherhead to the meter pan aka the service entrance wire.

And who knows if the meter pan is rated for 200a.

And since you will be going to the trouble of changing the service entrance wire, you might as well switch to a combination meter main.

If u upgrade to a meter main or a main disconnect before the current breaker box, u would have to change the breaker box into a subpanel which means isolating the neutral bus bar(s), run 4 wires to it, add ground bar(s) and move any ground over to the new ground bars.

U want cheap and easy but there just isnt a cheap and easy route with what you got.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Bill, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill to save a $100-$200 !

Pull the old meter pan and load center and replace them with a combination meter/load center.

Run 2-2-2-4 MHF to the garage. Hook it to a 90A breaker in the new load center.

 

[billrigsby]

U would have to change out the wire from the weatherhead to the meter pan aka the service entrance wire.

If all the triplex 200 +' is #2, what would changing the last 4' in the weatherhead get me?

Sorry I must have mis-spoke, I have enough of the next size up from #2
triplex to replace all my overhead (1/0)

If I need to upgrade "start at the transformer"? Right

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What you dont know is that overhead wire has a completely different ampacity rating than building wiring. Its called free air. Different ampacity table altogether.

But again, u dont own the service drop. The PoCo owns that. U wouldnt be replacing it nor would u be going anywhere near the lugs on the transformer.

The customer owns from the drip loop splices on down.

I dont get why youre so hung up on replacing the service drop.

And the service entrance wire in the riser pipe is longer than 4'.

Ya know its really starting to sound like youre trolling. Weve gone around and around and around about the service drop which isnt your responsibility.

Ive told u that #2 Al is not good for more than 100a in your situation and yet youre hell bent on using #2 al to expand your service.

Ive told u that triplex isnt building wire and u keep reverting back to it. What gives? Am i not making sense or am i not comprehendable???

 

[billrigsby]

Not sure what you mean by trolling? But that's neither here nor there.

I think it's me that's not getting a grasp of what's going on. So correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

I have number two Triplex feeding the meter and number one aluminum feeding down the mast and and from the meter to the panel box, you're saying that the triplex can handle more amperage than regular number two house wiring correct? That I did not know if it is the case.

So if I did theoretically upgrade my panel box to 200 amps I would not need to upgrade the number two Triplex correct?

The number two aluminum wire that I have that I want to run from the panel box to the garage you say will not handle over 100 amps correct?

But it will handle the roughly 60 amps that I want to run to the garage correct?

And you are correct the mast is more like 6.5-7' feet, but I do think, and that would have to be upgraded to a larger gauge if I wanted to upgrade the panel box to 200 amps correct? I was in error though it is number one aluminum not number to down the Mast and to the panel box.

And the load calc spreadsheet that you sent me will tell me if my panel box can handle that additional 60 amps correct?


I understand I do not own the triplex nor is it my responsibility, technically with this utility I don't own anything until it is after the meter. I was merely stating the fact that I have 1/0 Triplex on hand if I did need to upgrade that and have the ability to have either the power company or one of their contractors do the work for me. But it sounds like that is not a requirement for what I want to do.

I'm sorry if these questions are blunt and to the point, and I'm not trying to be rude I'm just trying to completely understand all of this. I don't consider myself a stupid person but I think I am just confused by the different wires and what they are capable of handling.

 

[terabitdan]

I have number two Triplex feeding the meter and number one aluminum feeding down the mast and and from the meter to the panel box, you're saying that the triplex can handle more amperage than regular number two house wiring correct? That I did not know if it is the case.

Did you mean to say that you have overhead wires (#2 triplex) to the drip loop and #1 aluminum down the mast into the top of the meter box and also out the bottom of the meter box into you panel? #1 AL is rated for 115 amps at 90 deg C, 1/0 AL is rated 135 amps, you need 4/0 from the drip loop through the meter and into you panel for 200 amp service.

So if I did theoretically upgrade my panel box to 200 amps I would not need to upgrade the number two Triplex correct?

That's up to your utility if they would have to upgrade. You have to ask…

The number two aluminum wire that I have that I want to run from the panel box to the garage you say will not handle over 100 amps correct?

But it will handle the roughly 60 amps that I want to run to the garage correct?

Yes #2AL can provide 60 amps, but triplex, which is a specific type of wire for utility use only, cannot be used for this feeder, a #2 MHF or THWN can if that's really what you have. Post a picture of the labeling on the wire you have for us to know what it is rated.

What size breaker is on the outdoor outlet you are using for the extension cord? It looks like a 50amp plug, you could remove the outlet and use new wiring from the existing breaker to extend that circuit to the garage with a sub-panel assuming you don't trip the main when using that extension cord. I'd still run 2-2-2-4 MHF or similar in case you decide you need more ampacity down the road.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not sure what you mean by trolling? But that's neither here nor there.

I think it's me that's not getting a grasp of what's going on. So correct me if I've got any of this wrong.

I have number two Triplex feeding the meter and number one aluminum feeding down the mast and and from the meter to the panel box, you're saying that the triplex can handle more amperage than regular number two house wiring correct? That I did not know if it is the case.

yeah youre definitely not grasping what Im saying.

First off, the overhead service drop wire is the only wire that is called triplex. So stop calling the wire in the mast and the wire going to the meter and breaker box triplex.

No i did not say the wire in the mast or the wire between the meter and breaker box can handle more ampacity than building wire.

Tri-plex "free-air" wire that is used SOLELY for overhead service drops, has higher ampacity than building wiring.

Again, stop using the word tri-plex.

So if I did theoretically upgrade my panel box to 200 amps I would not need to upgrade the number two Triplex correct?

incorrect.

#2 AL when used as service entrance wire is good for 100a MAX.

U would need 250McM under current code(2011 allowed 4/0 AL for 200a Service entrance when feeding a dwelling).

And Again, its not called triplex.

If u upgraded to 200a, you would need to remove the wire in the mast and the wire from the meter to the breaker box and install

The number two aluminum wire that I have that I want to run from the panel box to the garage you say will not handle over 100 amps correct?

But it will handle the roughly 60 amps that I want to run to the garage correct?

I never said that either.

#2 AL when used as a branch feeder is max 90a.

And you are correct the mast is more like 6.5-7' feet, but I do think, and that would have to be upgraded to a larger gauge if I wanted to upgrade the panel box to 200 amps correct? I was in error though it is number one aluminum not number to down the Mast and to the panel box.

yes. All wire from mast to meter to breaker box would need to be upgraded.

And the load calc spreadsheet that you sent me will tell me if my panel box can handle that additional 60 amps correct?

yes

I understand I do not own the triplex nor is it my responsibility, technically with this utility I don't own anything until it is after the meter. I was merely stating the fact that I have 1/0 Triplex on hand if I did need to upgrade that and have the ability to have either the power company or one of their contractors do the work for me. But it sounds like that is not a requirement for what I want to do.

Actually thats incorrect as well. You own the wire in the mast which is called the service entrance wire.

The PoCo will not use your Tri-plex wire. They have their own and are the ones who would be deciding what size upgrade if any would be needed.

Im not sure why youre so interested with the upgrade of the overhead service wire. All u have to do is ask the PoCo if it will need to be upgraded and they will handle it from there.

I'm sorry if these questions are blunt and to the point, and I'm not trying to be rude I'm just trying to completely understand all of this. I don't consider myself a stupid person but I think I am just confused by the different wires and what they are capable of handling.

The only confusion is where u keep calling the service entrance wire tri-plex which only muddies the discussion.

If u stop calling it tri-plex, it will give clarity to the discussion.

Hopefully my answers clear things up...

Did you mean to say that you have overhead wires (#2 triplex) to the drip loop and #1 aluminum down the mast into the top of the meter box and also out the bottom of the meter box into you panel? #1 AL is rated for 115 amps at 90 deg C, 1/0 AL is rated 135 amps, you need 4/0 from the drip loop through the meter and into you panel for 200 amp service.

U cannot size wire based on the 90* c ampacity.

So #1 AL is 100a, 1/0 AL is 120a, and 4/0 AL is no longer allowed for 200a under current code cycle, so 250McM is needed unless calcs are done to justify reduced size wire since table 310.15(b)(7) has been removed...

 

[dw1]

yeah youre definitely not grasping what Im saying.

First off, the overhead service drop wire is the only wire that is called triplex. So stop calling the wire in the mast and the wire going to the meter and breaker box triplex.

No i did not say the wire in the mast or the wire between the meter and breaker box can handle more ampacity than building wire.

Tri-plex "free-air" wire that is used SOLELY for overhead service drops, has higher ampacity than building wiring.

Again, stop using the word tri-plex.




incorrect.

#2 AL when used as service entrance wire is good for 100a MAX.

U would need 250McM under current code(2011 allowed 4/0 AL for 200a Service entrance when feeding a dwelling).

And Again, its not called triplex.

If u upgraded to 200a, you would need to remove the wire in the mast and the wire from the meter to the breaker box and install



I never said that either.

#2 AL when used as a branch feeder is max 90a.



yes. All wire from mast to meter to breaker box would need to be upgraded.



yes



Actually thats incorrect as well. You own the wire in the mast which is called the service entrance wire.

The PoCo will not use your Tri-plex wire. They have their own and are the ones who would be deciding what size upgrade if any would be needed.

Im not sure why youre so interested with the upgrade of the overhead service wire. All u have to do is ask the PoCo if it will need to be upgraded and they will handle it from there.



The only confusion is where u keep calling the service entrance wire tri-plex which only muddies the discussion.

If u stop calling it tri-plex, it will give clarity to the discussion.

Hopefully my answers clear things up...



U cannot size wire based on the 90* c ampacity.

So #1 AL is 100a, 1/0 AL is 120a, and 4/0 AL is no longer allowed for 200a under current code cycle, so 250McM is needed unless calcs are done to justify reduced size wire since table 310.15(b)(7) has been removed...

Where are you located? do you know what NEC code cycle your state is enforcing?
Before (IF) you buy a meter/main combo, make sure your power company accepts the equipment.

 

[billrigsby]

Please see my notations below

Did you mean to say that you have overhead wires (#2 triplex) to the drip loop and #1 aluminum down the mast into the top of the meter box and also out the bottom of the meter box into you panel? #1 AL is rated for 115 amps at 90 deg C, 1/0 AL is rated 135 amps, you need 4/0 from the drip loop through the meter and into you panel for 200 amp service.

YES, sorry


What size breaker is on the outdoor outlet you are using for the extension cord? It looks like a 50amp plug,

It is a 50A breaker also with the dryer on that circuit

you could remove the outlet and use new wiring from the existing breaker to extend that circuit to the garage with a sub-panel assuming you don't trip the main when using that extension cord.

Never tripped the breaker and the extension cord is 12-3

I'd still run 2-2-2-4 MHF or similar in case you decide you need more ampacity down the road.

Yes #2AL can provide 60 amps, but triplex, which is a specific type of wire for utility use only, cannot be used for this feeder, a #2 MHF or THWN can if that's really what you have. Post a picture of the labeling on the wire you have for us to know what it is rated.

This is the wire I plan on using...

--------------------------------------------------------------->---------------------------------------------------------->--------------------------------------------------------------->---------------------------------------------------------->

#2 Hot, Hot, Netutral
#4 Ground