BentBierz
Well-known member
Hello,
Very sorry for the long post and will probably lose a lot of readers a quarter of the way through...maybe after this opening sentence!
This is for the electricians on the forum. I pretend to be one as I have done a lot of electrical work (both in the CG on boats and structures and in my own homes).
BLUF (As they say in the Coast Guard...Bottom Line UpFront): New 100 Amp sub panels installed (with 100 amp breakers at main panel) in each of two detached buildings (one building approx. 50' run from main panel, the other approx. 90' away). Electrician installed the following:
- #2 aluminum wire for the hots
- #4 copper wire for the neutral
- #4 aluminum wire for the ground
At a minimum, I believe the hots are at least one size too small, maybe two sizes for the 90' run.
My story...our electrician was sub'd out by the general contractor (GC) who was hired to erect a new steel building from clearing the land, roughing in plumbing, pouring the slab and running 100 amp sub panels to the new building as well as to an existing steel building...both buildings are non-commercial.
My problems began when I was running new branch circuits inside the new building well after the final check had been written to the GC. We had a BBQ several weekends ago and an electrician friend of one of my buddies was invited over. With a beer in hand and the smell of brisket coming out of the smoker, the electrician said, "Hey, lets go take a look at what your doing in there." He headed for the open sub panel and took one look and said that the panel was wired wrong i.e. it was 3-wire instead of 4-wire. Thus began 3 nights of internet research trying to determine if he was right. What I found was that since the writing of the 2008 NEC 4-wire is now code for detached sub panels; 3-wire is still allowed in existing buildings.
I had three different email exchanges back-and-forth with the GC who was playing middle man between me and the electrician. In each of my emails I provided him with multiple sites as well as pictures/diagrams from reputable electrical sources all showing that 4-wire should have been installed. He contacted the electrician who responded back that "the customer is confused; the 3-wire with neutrals and grounds bonded together and with a ground rod he installed was actually safer than a 4-wire system." As I had provided him with so much "evidence" and all I got back, twice, was that I was confused I decided to contact our county (as well as the city that is only a mile from our property) to get their take. BTW...out in the country so we were not required to pull permits or get inspections...HUGE regret at this point for making that decision. Both the city and county came back and said 4-wire was required. I forwarded the emails on to the GC and also said that at this point I had no expectation that the electrician was going to budge and that I would be filing a complaint against his license. Miracle of all miracles, the next day I get an email from the GC asking when the electrician could come out and "make it right."
The electrician & helper showed up yesterday and pulled all of the existing wire out of the PVC conduit. They added the fourth wire (#4 copper neutral -- assuming they used copper because it would be easier to pull than equivalent rated aluminum) and pulled the wires back through the conduit to each building and hooked everything up including adding a ground bar to each sub panel to separate the neutrals and grounds.
Unfortunately, I just had knee replacement surgery and was at PT when they came to do the work. By the time I got back they were already heading off the property. I stopped them and they explained what they had done and headed out. Later on that day I decided to go out to one of the buildings to pull a panel cover off and see what they had done. What I saw was three different physical sizes of wire but none of the wires had visible markings on them in the short lengths I could see. I sent the GC an email and said, "Hey, for my records what size wire did the electricians run?" His reply, "#2/#4/#4--all 100amp wire".
i have found NO sites, calculators, charts, etc. online that says these wire sizes are sufficient for 100 amp panels...certainly not the hots. So, very long story, short...is there something I am missing here or does the GC need to sub out more competent electricians and come do my job right.
Very sorry for the long post and will probably lose a lot of readers a quarter of the way through...maybe after this opening sentence!
This is for the electricians on the forum. I pretend to be one as I have done a lot of electrical work (both in the CG on boats and structures and in my own homes).
BLUF (As they say in the Coast Guard...Bottom Line UpFront): New 100 Amp sub panels installed (with 100 amp breakers at main panel) in each of two detached buildings (one building approx. 50' run from main panel, the other approx. 90' away). Electrician installed the following:
- #2 aluminum wire for the hots
- #4 copper wire for the neutral
- #4 aluminum wire for the ground
At a minimum, I believe the hots are at least one size too small, maybe two sizes for the 90' run.
My story...our electrician was sub'd out by the general contractor (GC) who was hired to erect a new steel building from clearing the land, roughing in plumbing, pouring the slab and running 100 amp sub panels to the new building as well as to an existing steel building...both buildings are non-commercial.
My problems began when I was running new branch circuits inside the new building well after the final check had been written to the GC. We had a BBQ several weekends ago and an electrician friend of one of my buddies was invited over. With a beer in hand and the smell of brisket coming out of the smoker, the electrician said, "Hey, lets go take a look at what your doing in there." He headed for the open sub panel and took one look and said that the panel was wired wrong i.e. it was 3-wire instead of 4-wire. Thus began 3 nights of internet research trying to determine if he was right. What I found was that since the writing of the 2008 NEC 4-wire is now code for detached sub panels; 3-wire is still allowed in existing buildings.
I had three different email exchanges back-and-forth with the GC who was playing middle man between me and the electrician. In each of my emails I provided him with multiple sites as well as pictures/diagrams from reputable electrical sources all showing that 4-wire should have been installed. He contacted the electrician who responded back that "the customer is confused; the 3-wire with neutrals and grounds bonded together and with a ground rod he installed was actually safer than a 4-wire system." As I had provided him with so much "evidence" and all I got back, twice, was that I was confused I decided to contact our county (as well as the city that is only a mile from our property) to get their take. BTW...out in the country so we were not required to pull permits or get inspections...HUGE regret at this point for making that decision. Both the city and county came back and said 4-wire was required. I forwarded the emails on to the GC and also said that at this point I had no expectation that the electrician was going to budge and that I would be filing a complaint against his license. Miracle of all miracles, the next day I get an email from the GC asking when the electrician could come out and "make it right."
The electrician & helper showed up yesterday and pulled all of the existing wire out of the PVC conduit. They added the fourth wire (#4 copper neutral -- assuming they used copper because it would be easier to pull than equivalent rated aluminum) and pulled the wires back through the conduit to each building and hooked everything up including adding a ground bar to each sub panel to separate the neutrals and grounds.
Unfortunately, I just had knee replacement surgery and was at PT when they came to do the work. By the time I got back they were already heading off the property. I stopped them and they explained what they had done and headed out. Later on that day I decided to go out to one of the buildings to pull a panel cover off and see what they had done. What I saw was three different physical sizes of wire but none of the wires had visible markings on them in the short lengths I could see. I sent the GC an email and said, "Hey, for my records what size wire did the electricians run?" His reply, "#2/#4/#4--all 100amp wire".
i have found NO sites, calculators, charts, etc. online that says these wire sizes are sufficient for 100 amp panels...certainly not the hots. So, very long story, short...is there something I am missing here or does the GC need to sub out more competent electricians and come do my job right.
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