Solving driveway runoff with French drain?

[BellyUpFish]

Ok, so I'm at work with rudimentary options available to me, so please excuse the kindergarten level imagery, but here is my scenario..

I'm currently having runoff down my paved driveway, onto the gravel drive and it's obviously creating a bit of a ditch. It's not terrible, but if I don't do something about it soon, I'll be continually adding crusher run over it a couple times a year.

What I'm considering is an open French drain covered with larger crushed gravel right at the **** of the paved gravel to route the run off somewhere other than down my driveway..

Would a French drain work here or should I be looking at something like a concrete drain trench?

Green = future zoysia sod (having installed in a few weeks. I'm told this "should help" my problem, but I'm looking beyond that just incase.) Right now, the green is dirt.

Light Gray = my paved portion of my driveway.

Dark gray = crusher run gravel driveway.

Dark blue = current water runoff.

Red = proposed "open French drain"

Light blue = proposed 4" ads drain pipe runoff.




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[CrashmanS]

This what your talking about? If so yes that would solve your issue. We had this installed and the drain went to daylight in the lower part of the yard.

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[BellyUpFish]

Well, that's the trench I was talking about. That for sure would work.

I was thinking something like the right hand side of this picture though..

 

[zeeway]

Not to be a smart-***, but just remember that water will only flow downhill. So,the french drain enclosed with gravel will work like a champ, provided that you can provide a trench that slopes in the direction of flow that you want; and, of course, if the volume of water is greater than the frenchdrain will carry, the overflow will likely follow the current slope.

 

[tjdux]

Sod will slow down run off and the roots will help move some water into the soil but not a ton. Any thing over .5 inch per hour or any time after soil is saturated will still run off so the grass will only help maybe 20-50% of the time.

That white drain across the drive at the end of the pavement looks pretty solid.

None the less gravel drives always require some maintence and will eventually need more gravel.

Signiture; Check out my garage progress http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352703

 

[59 wagon man]

why not just get a traffic bearing trench drain and forget the rock . driving over the rock on a plastic drain may drive the rock thru the grate just causing a clogged drain

 

[Notgrownup]

This what your talking about? If so yes that would solve your issue. We had this installed and the drain went to daylight in the lower part of the yard.

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This is what I have in front of my shop door....looks good

 

[CrashmanS]

why not just get a traffic bearing trench drain and forget the rock . driving over the rock on a plastic drain may drive the rock thru the grate just causing a clogged drain

I out about 2 foot of blacktop on the gravel side of ours. Keeps the rock of top the drain. What does manage to get in there, you can pull the top off and clean it out.

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[casmurbax]

Does your home have gutters? I only ask because I see lots of roof lines and i wonder where the downspouts empty out to.

Not sure how having grass laid out will help. the water will either pool in that area or still run off or worse case run back towards the house.

Is there anyway you could could make a swale in the green area and direct the water to the other direction of your driveway (into the wooded area) looking at your picture in between your house and your garage?

 

[steveo1o9]

Your french drain idea will work in theory but the velocity of the runoff coming off of the paved section may make the water go right over the drain without infiltrating into the stone layer. Especially as the top stone becomes more and more compacted from being driven on the less water will be collected. If the water running off the pavement is eroding the gravel then I suspect it has some velocity to it. Obviously the trench drain will cost a lot more in comparison but it would be the one and done solution.

You could also install a little yard inlet in a low spot in the grassed area but this would still require you to trench a pipe in somewhere.

 

[dave89iroc]

storm drain from the lawn where it puddles, under the pavement and into the woods.................

 

[buddyboy]

if all that concrete slopes that way that is a ton of water, like steveo says, that water will just plow right over any cross drain you put in there.

you're probably getting pooling of water in the yard, either because the concrete is acting like a dam or your concrete drains off into the yard and the yard drains into the concrete. a catch basin there that ties into your gutter drains (if the gutters drain to daylight) or some kind of drywell will help there.

as far as the rest of the water coming of the concrete into the gravel drive... you need to stop the water before it gets to the gravel,

you could cut catch basin holes into the concrete, the tunnel starting from where you want the drain to come out to the catch basin hole. lotta work, things could go wrong, need to find a catch basin to fit the hole... yada yada.

or you would pour another 5 or 10 foot pad extending your concrete, just install the catch basin or some kind of WIDE grating to catch all the water before it gets to your gravel.

another solution might be some kind of paver block that allows drainage, maybe a 3 to 5 foot transition area between the gravel and concrete.

good luck

 

[myredracer]

Drain grate is a good idea across the driveway. I've use cast iron before that was set into the concrete driveway. Crushed material is not the best for a french drain. I'd use round stone material, even down to pea gravel size. No matter what type of gravel you'd put over the open drain out in the open, it'll eventually have weeds, grass and "stuff" growing in it. If soil condition is poor, this reduce flow out of the drain and could need more overall length of drain. Do you know what the soil is like? Cross section dimension of the french drain would depend on soil conditions and may want it more like 2'x2'.

If you decide to use pipe under the driveway, use schedule 80 PVC and can drill your own holes in it. A properly designed french drain without a pipe can drain a tremendous amount of water without a pipe. Use heavy duty filter cloth around the pipe (rock around pipe, filter cloth, then more rock). Sounds like you may need a catch basin on uphill side of the driveway, if so grade the existing soil towards it as needed. A precast catch basin isn't that expensive and you could tie house footing & roof drain into it.

A pic or two of existing area might help.

 

[Firebrick43]

I placed a French drain in a neighbors drive nearly with the same situation as you and it works well. Dug a 18" trench and laid landscaping cloth in it. Fill with #8 stone (3/4" crushed stone with no fines) to about 4" from top and folded cloth over top and laid more gravel up to flush with drive. The gravel was packed with a plate compactor every 4" lift.

The trench exits into the yard as the drive is well above anything else.

I disagree about round stone as it doesn't pack and vehicles will move it. Crush stone in larger sizes locks together but still has good drainage flow.

 

[Trey T]

can you make the majority of runoff (the green area) going the other way, south/southeast, to lower the volume going toward the driveway?

 

[kbs2244]

I like swales (wide shallow ditches)
They are cheap, can be mowed over, and do not collect leaves.

 

[AZ Pete]

A concrete swale or dip would be my choice. You could even have a speed hump there that would deflect the flow.


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[PugetDude]

Here are a few cross-drain ideas from the guys who do this every day...the US Forest Service

https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/wr_p/98771804/98771804.htm

Relative costs of the various methods at the end of the article.

I like the heavy wall pipe with slots burned in it... and they even show how to make the cleanout tool...

 

[forAK]

Fill the pooling area with a higher lawn and let it divert to the left. Also looks like you could bore under your asphalt with pipe and place a "drain" in the pooling area. Your shortest run would be directly to the left.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not to be a smart-***, but just remember that water will only flow downhill. So,the french drain enclosed with gravel will work like a champ, provided that you can provide a trench that slopes in the direction of flow that you want; and, of course, if the volume of water is greater than the frenchdrain will carry, the overflow will likely follow the current slope.

CONCUR !

I will only add that where the drain goes to "daylight" there has to be sufficient enough lower level area to hold all that runoff.

 

[ard]

The french drain will stop working as the pores at the surface become filled with dust, dirt, debris. It will work great when new, but over time (and with big storms) water will just flow overtop. My opinion.

Those prefab plastic drains are OK. Or pour concrete, form a lip and drop in grating.

 

[Radix2]

The french drain will stop working as the pores at the surface become filled with dust, dirt, debris. It will work great when new, but over time (and with big storms) water will just flow overtop. My opinion.

Those prefab plastic drains are OK. Or pour concrete, form a lip and drop in grating.

This is right - french drains are for clearing saturated soils over long time periods - NOT for collecting and moving water in a rainstorm. For this job you need open drainage - either a clear grated inlet or a ditch or swale.

You should be able to create a slight swale at the end of the cement to allow the water to cross the driveway instead of going down it. Keep the path nice and wide - a 6 foot wide depression even a 1/2 in deep will carry a lot of volume and hardly even show.

If it is to too tricky to grade the gravel and keep it like this, do a 10' section of concrete there with the slight dip in it. Unlike all these other methods, this will never need leaves cleaned out, etc.

 

[BellyUpFish]

The french drain will stop working as the pores at the surface become filled with dust, dirt, debris. It will work great when new, but over time (and with big storms) water will just flow overtop. My opinion.

Those prefab plastic drains are OK. Or pour concrete, form a lip and drop in grating.

I need to do some research on how to pour a concrete channel and do the grating. That's what I'd prefer.


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[onewheat]

I have two of those drains on my lake driveway - one just outside the door and another near the second guy up on the left side of the driveway. The amount of rain that I get off the hill and running down the concrete is immense. It runs off the other side of the house and down the hill into the woods. The one that is halfway down the drive dumps just above a willow tree that loves the water and is growing spectacularly well. You may need some concrete on the other side of the grate drain as well to keep things in place but they handle a LARGE amount of water very well.

 

[ard]

A quickie idea..

2x12s to form the sides. Hold them 'up' off the bottom with steel form stakes. Nail a 2x4 to the top to make the lip. Use a spacer between, and wire, to make sure there is a constant distance for your grating.

Maybe pour the bottom first, let it set a bit- then the sides? You dont want hydraulic pressure pushing the bottom up. Once it sets up, you can remove the stakes- fill the holes in- but really it doesnt matter.

 

[Trey T]

I have two of those drains on my lake driveway - one just outside the door and another near the second guy up on the left side of the driveway. The amount of rain that I get off the hill and running down the concrete is immense. It runs off the other side of the house and down the hill into the woods. The one that is halfway down the drive dumps just above a willow tree that loves the water and is growing spectacularly well. You may need some concrete on the other side of the grate drain as well to keep things in place but they handle a LARGE amount of water very well.

wholly **** ... that's a crazy slope. who developed that property for you- yourself?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I placed a French drain in a neighbors drive nearly with the same situation as you and it works well. Dug a 18" trench and laid landscaping cloth in it. Fill with #8 stone (3/4" crushed stone with no fines) to about 4" from top and folded cloth over top and laid more gravel up to flush with drive. The gravel was packed with a plate compactor every 4" lift.

The trench exits into the yard as the drive is well above anything else.

I disagree about round stone as it doesn't pack and vehicles will move it. Crush stone in larger sizes locks together but still has good drainage flow.

CONCUR !! Especially on the last statement

(Use "professional grade" landscape cloth, not the stuff you buy at most big box stores.)

 

[jives]

I like swales (wide shallow ditches)
They are cheap, can be mowed over, and do not collect leaves.

This. No reason for a drain. Cut a swale and be done with it.

 

[BellyUpFish]

This. No reason for a drain. Cut a swale and be done with it.

A swale might just do it. I'll talk to the landscaper when he comes out about doing that.

 

[ard]

This. No reason for a drain. Cut a swale and be done with it.

I love swales too. But it really depends on the volume of water and how it is concentrated. Too much water can overrun the swale AND lead to erosion along it. (especially when there is no growth in it, ie grass)

 

[uscarry45]

French drain should work but needs to be sized to the slope and amount of water. Bigger is definitely better

 

[onewheat]

wholly **** ... that's a crazy slope. who developed that property for you- yourself?

My builder did a nice job. Imagine backing a 6500 lb boat down that hill. It drops about 80 feet in 135 feet.

 

[Trey T]

Wholly moley wackamoley ... lol ... that's a 8/12 slope (that's steep for even a roof) with a short radius going the wrong way!!!!! I think the picture is deceiving w/o seeing the whole property but man, that's crazy!!!

How big is the drain pipe? How long have you had the place built?

 

[onewheat]

Wholly moley wackamoley ... lol ... that's a 8/12 slope (that's steep for even a roof) with a short radius going the wrong way!!!!! I think the picture is deceiving w/o seeing the whole property but man, that's crazy!!!

How big is the drain pipe? How long have you had the place built?

I have a 4" corrugated pipe off each end at the bottom drain (just outside garage) with a couple gallon "box" on each end actually between the grate drain and the drain pipe. There is just one coming off the hill side of the middle one. I'll look for a couple of pics of the house.

 

[onewheat]

This is about 1/3 of the way down the drive looking down, the dock looking up and the top deck looking down.

 

[Radix2]

I have a 4" corrugated pipe off each end at the bottom drain (just outside garage) with a couple gallon "box" on each end actually between the grate drain and the drain pipe. There is just one coming off the hill side of the middle one. I'll look for a couple of pics of the house.

Is the concrete sloped away from the garage and the house back to the point where the driveway joins the rest of the apron ? The best thing to have would be a low line there off to the down-slope (to the left) so that the surface itself is properly draining - I hope that is how it is.

I have see many times where subsurface drains are attempted in some otherwise landlocked spot. It is inevitable that leaves and trash will clog it up with bad consequences.

they are OK for detail drainage, but make sure you have daylight slopes to prevent any catastrophic flooding.

That's a tough spot on a snow day ! very pretty!

 

[larry_g]

Light Gray = my paved portion of my driveway.

Dark gray = crusher run gravel driveway.

Dark blue = current water runoff.

Red = proposed "open French drain"

Light blue = proposed 4" ads drain pipe runoff.




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Pondering this for a couple of days. Does your cement drive have enough slope to it that you could cut a few groves in your drive that would channel the water to the left of picture effectively keeping the water from the concrete/gravel interface? Cut the grooves where you drew the blue lines but curve them to the left and off that edge? They would effectively meet up with the light blue line.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[BellyUpFish]

Pondering this for a couple of days. Does your cement drive have enough slope to it that you could cut a few groves in your drive that would channel the water to the left of picture effectively keeping the water from the concrete/gravel interface? Cut the grooves where you drew the blue lines but curve them to the left and off that edge? They would effectively meet up with the light blue line.

lg
no neat sig line

Might be able to.

Spoke with the landscaper today, he says there should be no issues creating a swale to run it down the back of the property.

So, I'll guess we'll see what happens. I had actually considering putting a small lip at the end of the concrete just to sorta divert the water, but that'd be ugly sooo..

 

[fourjeepin]

That type of drain is called a trench drain, not a French drain. I learned this after buying my place. I have fixed many water issues and still have a few left to do.