Need some help with a Wilton 450S Vise.

[RCsGarage]

UPDATED, 2nd page.

I bought this a few weeks ago after selling my Chas. Parker 974. Before painting the base I wanted to do a test fit after receiving new lockdown handles from Wilton yesterday.

For some reason I can't get the vise centered on the base and work properly. When I have it centered on the base the right side lockdown handle tip grinds against the "Schiller Park" lettering.

Noticed the big gap difference between the two sides??? You can see why it's grinding against the lettering.



Also when the vise is centered on the base one of the lockdown handles aren't parallel to the vise when fully tightened down?





The only way to get the handles parallel to the vise once fully tightened down is to make the vise sit off centered on the base? One side overhangs off of the base and the other side isn't sitting all the way on the base?






I've tried everything I can think of and there's no way to center the vise on the base and use the Wilton lowdown handles. I was able to center it and use standard nuts as lockdowns but I shouldn't have to.

I don't see anything wrong with it but who knows. The only thing I can think is I lost the centering pin (dowel) when I was de-greasing it outside. I made one out of 1/2" round bar but the hole is slightly larger than 1/2" so maybe that's the problem. I can get a new ring with the dowel for around $70 but I'd hate to buy it and it not fix my problem. Any ideas??

 

[ducksface]

The swivel on my 600 was not a wilton swivel. Have you ever seen it attached?

 

[RCsGarage]

The swivel on my 600 was not a wilton swivel. Have you ever seen it attached?

No I haven't. It was shipped with the base detached.

I brought up the look of the inner ring in another post...the inner ring on mine looks different than the ones Wilton are currently selling. My vise is from the 70s so maybe they just redesigned it?




With that said, the correct Wilton parts numbers are stamped into the base as well as the inner ring?



Close up of other stamped numbers;

 

[G-ManBart]

It's actually unusual for the swivel lock handles to be parallel to the vise body when tightened all the way. The centering pin/dowel doesn't need to be a really tight fit, but it shouldn't be too loose or the vise will move around a bit on the outer ring of the swivel base.

 

[RCsGarage]

I don't really care if the arms are parallel but I've had 5 smaller vises over the years and all were parallel and all were cheap China vises.

But something definitely isn't right with the base and or inner ring because the handles shouldn't be scraping against the lettering and the vise shouldn't be off center.

I ordered a new base and inner ring last night. I'll report back once I get them.

 

[G-ManBart]

I don't really care if the arms are parallel but I've had 5 smaller vises over the years and all were parallel and all were cheap China vises.

But something definitely isn't right with the base and or inner ring because the handles shouldn't be scraping against the lettering and the vise shouldn't be off center.

I ordered a new base and inner ring last night. I'll report back once I get them.

I've restored something like three dozen Wiltons and I can't think of a single one where both swivel locks wound up parallel to the body when locked down, so I wouldn't worry about that.

I have also seen some where one swivel lock was much closer to the body than the other. I suspect those were simply castings that weren't done quite right. The worst I've had the handle almost touched, but not quite on the one side.

 

[Shiftless]

I've restored something like three dozen Wiltons and I can't think of a single one where both swivel locks wound up parallel to the body when locked down, so I wouldn't worry about that.

I have also seen some where one swivel lock was much closer to the body than the other. I suspect those were simply castings that weren't done quite right. The worst I've had the handle almost touched, but not quite on the one side.

I haven't done 3 dozen but my experience is the same as the Gman. Not just Wilton bullets but many other makes. I have never owned a Chinese one so I can't report on those.
You might try a washer to effectively shorten the length of the lock down bolt and alter the position of the handle when fully tightened. Sounds like that is a bit of a concern.

 

[KMScott]

I to use washers to adjust the clamp locations. How can they start the thread cuttings at the same spot on every carriage bolt and lock down body. The Wilton castings are not precision and when you get it locking down where you want it in one position then rotate the vise and the handles lock down at a different angle. Wilton swivel bases and inner rings are a very weak point on their vises.

 

[RCsGarage]

Getting side tracked...again I really don't care about the arms being parallel, I was just making a generalized statement since this was my first Wilton vise. I thought maybe that had to do with the base issue. I've seen some cheaper vises and while the arms weren't parallel they weren't 90 degrees off fully tightened.

Anyway my main concern was with the vise not being centered on the base. Precision or not that should not be the case.

 

[ducksface]

I used too few words in my post.
Sorry.

My 600 came to me with the base detached.
I never saw it, as you haven't, on my 600 vise.
The base given to me, that was sworn to have come off of the 600 does not in any way fit without a bit of machining.

Maybe the seller, since yours arrived in a box, sent you the base from a different vise.
As said, it's not a precision system and just might not fit if the 1955 vise had a different casting from a 1971 year vise.

Punchline:
My detached base(though the trader told me he removed it himself) just does not fit.

 

[G-ManBart]

There have been slight variations in the swivel base Wilton used over the years. What is the date stamp of your 450? Can you post a full-profile side picture so we can see which version it is?

 

[RCsGarage]

There have been slight variations in the swivel base Wilton used over the years. What is the date stamp of your 450? Can you post a full-profile side picture so we can see which version it is?

12/77. I'll get a picture up tonight.

I bought a new base and inner ring online this weekend. I'm assuming it'll work...right?

 

[RCsGarage]

I used too few words in my post.
Sorry.

My 600 came to me with the base detached.
I never saw it, as you haven't, on my 600 vise.
The base given to me, that was sworn to have come off of the 600 does not in any way fit without a bit of machining.

Maybe the seller, since yours arrived in a box, sent you the base from a different vise.
As said, it's not a precision system and just might not fit if the 1955 vise had a different casting from a 1971 year vise.

Punchline:
My detached base(though the trader told me he removed it himself) just does not fit.

I asked him about it and he said he only had 2 vises and both were 77 model 450S'. Not sure why it didn't fit correctly.

 

[T45]

Wilton bases, in general, do have a bit of slop in them and the handles don't lock parallel.

Its not unusual to see a maybe 1-3mm part of the machined base lip if you really try to get it off-center.

That being said, you should also check the main casting and the base pieces. Its also not uncommon for some minor casting flaws in these locations. A quick de-burr tho would fix that--just run a file over any spots that may be rough.

I don't think what has been shown is anyones fault, its probably a combination of mix/match between old/new production spec and normal production varaiance, mixed with the general design of the wilton swivel base (which is not pecision machined).

Good luck OP and hopefully you can track down a solution.

(also, do Note the carriage bolts can be rotated in 90deg increments if you want so shift some angles slightly on the handles, you can also try swapping bolts with handles, etc).

 

[KMScott]

Sorry for getting sidetracked. This could be where your issue is. If they did not center the base when drilling the 1/2" center dowel pin hole then the holes will be closer to the body causing the handle ends to hit. I happen to have a base to measure and you can see this one is off. I have made swivel locks with closer fitting handle ends just because of this issue. Maybe the new base and inner ring will help.

 

[G-ManBart]

12/77. I'll get a picture up tonight.

I bought a new base and inner ring online this weekend. I'm assuming it'll work...right?

12/77 should be the "modern" style, but there are always exceptions.

This is a 450SJ that has a Guar Exp 1966 date stamp (likely a typo) but from the late 1950s or early 1960s. You'll note it has extra tabs, but no teeth.



This is a 1975 date stamped 450SJ that has teeth, but no center pin.



This is a 1968 date stamped 9450 with teeth and a center pin.



This is a 1955 production (date stamped Guar Exp 1960) 9400HD that has teeth but does have a center pin.



I can't seem to come up with any logical progression they went through other than that eventually all machinist and C-series models had both teeth and center pins.

I have a couple of 450S right now...I don't recall the date stamps on them, but I'll take a look. I'm certain both used the kind of base with both a center pin, and teeth. I also have two other 9450s I can look at as well.

 

[Shiftless]

Gman:
Thanks for the thorough explanation with the excellent illustrations. I learned something and I bet other readers did too.

 

[G-ManBart]

I checked two more 4.5" bullets today. One is the older style with the more rounded dynamic jaw, with a date stamp of 1/76 and it has a base with the center pin, inner ring with teeth like the modern style. The other was a new style with the more square dynamic jaw that has a date stamp of 3/78 and it also has the newer style base with the center pin and inner ring with teeth. The two other 4.5" bullets I have are one each of the same two styles, but have incomplete date stamps left on the key, so I can't tell the exact manufacturing date.

 

[G-ManBart]

Gman:
Thanks for the thorough explanation with the excellent illustrations. I learned something and I bet other readers did too.

I'm just glad I know something about something for a change

 

[KMScott]

Great stuff G-man. Thanks for the pic's. Let's see how RCsGarage new inner ring works on his 450.

 

[RCsGarage]

Thanks for the help so far everyone!!

I'm still waiting on the inner and outer rings. They were shipped slow FedEx post. It shows it was supposed to be delivered Thursday but now says Monday. So today I took the vise apart. I bought it already refinished but I wanted to clean out the inner spindle nut and grease it up along with the screw.

Just when I thought this vise couldn't get any more wonky! I punched the left pin out with no problems but the right one would not come out? I was able to pull it out from the outside and noticed the hole didn't go all the way though? So there was no way to punch it through!?





After looking at it from the inside, it looks like the pin was stuck and the previous owner couldn't get it out so he drilled a little of the old pin out for the new stainless pin to rest in.





I've been banging on it and I can't get it out. Should I drill it the rest of the way out or is it fine the way it is?

 

[Al Borland]

Two things:
to get your handles closer to parallel, as opposed to perpendicular, turn/reclock the carriage bolt head 90 degrees.
Where the vice is "Off-center", try re-clocking the lock ring 180 degrees, so the side that was on the left is on the right.

 

[RCsGarage]

Two things:
to get your handles closer to parallel, as opposed to perpendicular, turn/reclock the carriage bolt head 90 degrees.
Where the vice is "Off-center", try re-clocking the lock ring 180 degrees, so the side that was on the left is on the right.

Tried both of your suggestions already, didn't help, thanks though. I even used two different pairs of carriage bolts, the ones from Wilton and some zinc plated from Ace.

I'm not worried about the locks. I'll probably end up using flat top acorn nuts anyway since I don't use the swivel that much.

 

[KMScott]

Thanks for the help so far everyone!!

I'm still waiting on the inner and outer rings. They were shipped slow FedEx post. It shows it was supposed to be delivered Thursday but now says Monday. So today I took the vise apart. I bought it already refinished but I wanted to clean out the inner spindle nut and grease it up along with the screw.

Just when I thought this vise couldn't get any more wonky! I punched the left pin out with no problems but the right one would not come out? I was able to pull it out from the outside and noticed the hole didn't go all the way though? So there was no way to punch it through!?

After looking at it from the inside, it looks like the pin was stuck and the previous owner couldn't get it out so he drilled a little of the old pin out for the new stainless pin to rest in.

I've been banging on it and I can't get it out. Should I drill it the rest of the way out or is it fine the way it is?

The steel pins should be a medium to a heavy press fit. Yes the hole should be a through hole and by looking at your pic's I believe the bad hole after it is cleaned out will be a loose fit. I think those pins are a 1/4 inch so maybe after the good side is installed and the vise is closed tight then maybe drill and ream the hole to 9/32 and purchase from McMaster Carr or elsewhere a 9/32 rod to slip in there ($15 including shipping). I like knurling my pins and smooth them down for a medium press (measure .003 oversize on a knurled finish) and tap the pin in place. But sometimes I have to do a more time consuming repair like how I explain HERE. These pins were really buggered up. Wilton should have done a better job holding their nut in place. Good luck.

 

[RCsGarage]

Finally got the inner and outer rings and the same thing is happening!!

I found out the problem....The lockdown holes on the vise are NOT spaced the same. The good side is .37" away from the side while the side scraping is .56" away IE: closer to the lettering on the vise body.

Combine that with the fubar'ed pin I'm returning this vise back to the seller! I'm kicking myself in the azz for selling my parker vise. Where's the Wilton QC? How did this vise even leave the factory like this??