UL vs ROHS vs CE approvals

[Want2race]

Watching a youtube video this morning about unboxing something from China got me thinking...

The big reason everyone goes for UL approval is the fact that if your house/shop burns down you would not have an issue with your insurance company for installing some grey market pieces.

I have a few exterior lights that are controlled by automation and since they are on for 6+ hours a day I make sure to buy UL but with Amazon and Ebay lately there are serious choices in CE and ROHS approvals

Would you consider those comparable?
Is the installation of a GFCI breaker/outlet and wiring it into the load side a substantial safety improvement?
Would you install one in your home and trust it to be on while away?

I am sure some people will say it is a way for UL listing companies to make money but there has to be more.

 

[American Locomotive]

RoHS has nothing to do about safety or product durability. It's "Reduction of Hazardous Substances". RoHS generally just means it has lead free solder.

The CE mark means the product conforms to European product rules. It's sort of similar to the UL listing, but the same.

The closest equivalents to the UL mark would be the "ETL" Intertek marking and the German TUV mark.

 

[cybrdyke]

Many manufacturers are getting away from using UL because they charge so damn much. An example: If I made an LED tube, 4' and wanted UL approval, they would charge me $10,000 non-refundable to do testing. If I made that tube in 3500k, 4000k, 5000k, and 6000k, that's $40,000 for the approvals. The only thing that UL tests for is safety. They dont test for performance. So, I can make all kinds of claims that my LED tube will be the biggest, fastest, strongest, etc..., but they can all be lies, and I'll still have my UL label as long as the product is safe to use. Same is true for C-UL, the canadian version.
Tons of manufacturers are moving toward the "ETL" label instead. Their prices are more reasonable AND they do performance testing as well. They are more up to date with their testing methods, which is particularly important in fast changing industries, like LED. They work with manufacturers to better understand the nature of the products.


CD

 

[mm08822]

UL or ETL labeling is what is expected of products installed in the US. I would have a high confidence in CE marked products manufactured in Europe or products marked under European companies names. CE is only a declaration by the company that the product meets established norms.

CE labeling of offbrand products coming out of China, I would be sceptical about.
Anyone can print a label.

Adding a gfci gives you another mode to detect a failure, but it is far from inclusive for all failure modes.

If you had an issue with a fixture CE marked, but not UL/ETL marked that could be a great way for insurance to not cover you claim. Even the inspector could fail your job for using non-listed components.

 

[sberry]

Ever know of a case insurance was denied because of this?

 

[ddawg16]

Ever know of a case insurance was denied because of this?

I was wondering the same thing....

 

[ddawg16]

Many manufacturers are getting away from using UL because they charge so damn much. An example: If I made an LED tube, 4' and wanted UL approval, they would charge me $10,000 non-refundable to do testing. If I made that tube in 3500k, 4000k, 5000k, and 6000k, that's $40,000 for the approvals. The only thing that UL tests for is safety. They dont test for performance. So, I can make all kinds of claims that my LED tube will be the biggest, fastest, strongest, etc..., but they can all be lies, and I'll still have my UL label as long as the product is safe to use. Same is true for C-UL, the canadian version.
Tons of manufacturers are moving toward the "ETL" label instead. Their prices are more reasonable AND they do performance testing as well. They are more up to date with their testing methods, which is particularly important in fast changing industries, like LED. They work with manufacturers to better understand the nature of the products.


CD

UL is a 'for profit' organization.

With that said....the standards do have merit....but as you pointed out....it's expensive.

I 'was' the UL guy (508a) at my work...now someone else does all the compliance checking for me.....same person who thought they knew better....last inspection didn't go well......(I did try to tell him)

Surprised no one mentioned RUL

 

[Norcal]

UL, ETL & CSAus are NTRL's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratorys, the CE mark has no value in the US.

 

[mm08822]

Ever know of a case insurance was denied because of this?

Nope, and I fortunately don't have any first-hand experience with building fires.

Only way to know for sure is to ask your insurance company, based upon your policy inclusions and exclusions. I couldn't even tell you if mine covers/excludes that. I have all UL/ETL labeled products, so its a non-issue for me. That is why I wrote "could".

 

[sberry]

I have never even heard of a case of this happening, not even on the internet from any reliable sources. It does get quoted a lot is why I mention it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Watching a youtube video this morning about unboxing something from China got me thinking...

The big reason everyone goes for UL approval is the fact that if your house/shop burns down you would not have an issue with your insurance company for installing some grey market pieces.

I have a few exterior lights that are controlled by automation and since they are on for 6+ hours a day I make sure to buy UL but with Amazon and Ebay lately there are serious choices in CE and ROHS approvals

Would you consider those comparable?
Is the installation of a GFCI breaker/outlet and wiring it into the load side a substantial safety improvement?
Would you install one in your home and trust it to be on while away?

I am sure some people will say it is a way for UL listing companies to make money but there has to be more.

As Norcal pointed out above, there are other NRTLs. UL is just one of them that is well recognized. Products for the US arent required to be tested with any particular NRTL.

GFCIs protect people from getting shocked. A GFCI wont stop or protect you from a fire due to a faulty fixture. This is another misconception about GFCIs and what they do.

 

[tyme2par4]

I work with UL standards every day, and I'm actually in the midst of writing a paper on how NEC and the NRTLs interface in an attempt to clear up confusion in my industry.
The NEC requires "listed devices" be used, which can be tested by any NRTL to the applicable standard (99% of the time, it's a UL standard). As a couple people mentioned, it can be tested by any NRTL.
CE is different, and only applies to Europe. I believe it's a self certification as well, so you can claim anything you want until someone calls you on it.

 

[ddawg16]

I work with UL standards every day, and I'm actually in the midst of writing a paper on how NEC and the NRTLs interface in an attempt to clear up confusion in my industry.
The NEC requires "listed devices" be used, which can be tested by any NRTL to the applicable standard (99% of the time, it's a UL standard). As a couple people mentioned, it can be tested by any NRTL.
CE is different, and only applies to Europe. I believe it's a self certification as well, so you can claim anything you want until someone calls you on it.

Hey.....if you need anyone to 'proof read' that paper........???????

Actually sounds like some good reading....but you do have your homework cut out for you....

 

[mm08822]

I work with UL standards every day, and I'm actually in the midst of writing a paper on how NEC and the NRTLs interface in an attempt to clear up confusion in my industry.
The NEC requires "listed devices" be used, which can be tested by any NRTL to the applicable standard (99% of the time, it's a UL standard). As a couple people mentioned, it can be tested by any NRTL.
CE is different, and only applies to Europe. I believe it's a self certification as well, so you can claim anything you want until someone calls you on it.

CE is a declaration signed by a designated individual of the manufacturer or OEM attesting that they have met/exceeded the applicable normative references for that item/machinery. The person who signs (usually a director/owner) can ultimately go to jail if it is proven they mis-represented. That is taken very seriously.

 

[Sal Bandini]

CE is a declaration signed by a designated individual of the manufacturer or OEM attesting that they have met/exceeded the applicable normative references for that item/machinery. The person who signs (usually a director/owner) can ultimately go to jail if it is proven they mis-represented. That is taken very seriously.

I do compliance and can tell you there is almost zero enforcement of CE. Recent market surveillance audit showed that majority (I think >70%) of products are non-compliant.

Many don't even test to applicable or most recent standards, have poor Declaration of Conformity or don't even have a DoC.

 

[mm08822]

I do compliance and can tell you there is almost zero enforcement of CE. Recent market surveillance audit showed that majority (I think >70%) of products are non-compliant.

Many don't even test to applicable or most recent standards, have poor Declaration of Conformity or don't even have a DoC.

I would be very surprised (scared) if it was that high. What product types are you referring to in that study?

The EU OEMs my company does business with are supporting the consumer products/pharma industries globally. These companies are routinely audited for ISO compliance and most customer validation efforts dig deep into their equipment/component/sourcing documentation.
They tell me the hardest customers (CE wise) are the ones in the EU because of their knowledge of the requirements of the ENs in the CE declaration and their need to purchase compliant equipment.
NA/USA equipment destination customers are much more casual about CE marking since most major components carry multiple listings with UL/CSA being the biggie and control panels built to UL508A or NFPA79 reqs. Our pressure/vacuum vessels must meet PED and ASME certifications ($$$).

 

[Sal Bandini]

I would be very surprised (scared) if it was that high. What product types are you referring to in that study?

The EU OEMs my company does business with are supporting the consumer products/pharma industries globally. These companies are routinely audited for ISO compliance and most customer validation efforts dig deep into their equipment/component/sourcing documentation.
They tell me the hardest customers (CE wise) are the ones in the EU because of their knowledge of the requirements of the ENs in the CE declaration and their need to purchase compliant equipment.
NA/USA equipment destination customers are much more casual about CE marking since most major components carry multiple listings with UL/CSA being the biggie and control panels built to UL508A or NFPA79 reqs. Our pressure/vacuum vessels must meet PED and ASME certifications ($$$).

This was an audit done across various industries. Granted, failure could be because of non-compliance to RoHS, which may account for many of them.

I have customers that are publicly traded and write their own DoC using incomplete data. There are times when they are stopped at customs and I have to help them create a DoC (which I will not sign).

 

[ard]

I do compliance and can tell you there is almost zero enforcement of CE. Recent market surveillance audit showed that majority (I think >70%) of products are non-compliant.

Many don't even test to applicable or most recent standards, have poor Declaration of Conformity or don't even have a DoC.

And I see companies get a UL listing at the beginning of production, and years later what is actually being produced isn't what UL tested.

Awfully easy for 'mericans to think our usofa UL system is superior to that loosely goosey European system..don't kid yourselves.

Coming from China or Asia? All bets are off....

 

[engineer2]

CE covers many standards, but for electrical products it covers EMI emissions and susceptibility. CE is self-declared, but if someone calls you on it, you better be able to provide documentation.

We get UL inspectors stopping by once or twice a year to make sure products are in compliance.

 

[Norcal]

CE is still a European standard that does not apply here. OHSA has a list of NRTL's they recognize.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

No longer recognized.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/recgterm.html

 

[Sal Bandini]

CE covers many standards, but for electrical products it covers EMI emissions and susceptibility. CE is self-declared, but if someone calls you on it, you better be able to provide documentation.

We get UL inspectors stopping by once or twice a year to make sure products are in compliance.

It is not only EMC. You must also meet safety standards, either Low Voltage Directive, Machinery Directive, or Toy Safety Directive.

UL does not check for CE compliance. They are only concerned that you are building according to their UL safety report.

 

[Infinia]

Watching a youtube video this morning about unboxing something from China got me thinking...

The big reason everyone goes for UL approval is the fact that if your house/shop burns down you would not have an issue with your insurance company for installing some grey market pieces.

Yes indeed fire safety is tantamount , insurance or otherwise is up to your own level of risk.
Id rather pay upfront for some level of protection, rather than letting the courts decide the blame game.

I have a few exterior lights that are controlled by automation and since they are on for 6+ hours a day I make sure to buy UL but with Amazon and Ebay lately there are serious choices in CE and ROHS approvals

Would you consider those comparable?

Heck No! I would look for 3rd party certifications like UL / CSA in N. America. Full stop. CE logos is pretty much a joke on all things from PRC. They have altered a CE logo that at 1st glance looks almost the same as the official markings but it isn't (counterfeit). The industry standing joke is, that it stands for 'China Export'. The UL listing #'s can be looked up to verify. CE self certifications IMO are like the saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Is the installation of a GFCI breaker/outlet and wiring it into the load side a substantial safety improvement?
Would you install one in your home and trust it to be on while away?

Nope and Nope.
As another poster has already pointed out, GFCI is for shock hazard protection only.
If you look at many utoob video /reviews of cheap CE outdoor lighting products, lots of folks are reporting the safety earth grounds are left not connected. ( clearly not passing ANY safety organizations directives.) all this points to perhaps there are other serious issues having to do with heat/fire. Underwriters Laboratories or CSA would shut them down in a heartbeat.

I am sure some people will say it is a way for UL listing companies to make money but there has to be more.

, folks say all sorts of things
FWIW UL is a not for profit. Sure it adds to the final products cost. , but nobodies saying your local cities fire and police services aren't cheap either.

 

[tyme2par4]

FWIW UL is a not for profit. Sure it adds to the final products cost. , but nobodies saying your local cities fire and police services aren't cheap either.

Actually, as of a few years ago, UL is a For Profit company.

 

[cybrdyke]

The UL label is probably the most counterfeited logo in the world. Buying a product on ebay from an overseas seller and they claim to have UL listings? Doubtful.
Even American companies counterfeit the UL logo, or use them improperly.
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/04/light_bulb_maker_tcp_loses_its.html
How can you be sure that the product that you are considering actually has a UL mark?
You can type in the info here--> http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database
Even then, you need to be sure that the product you are buying is actually the product you want and not a very good counterfeit copy.
Good luck,
CD

 

[mm08822]

Actually, as of a few years ago, UL is a For Profit company.

Sometime around 2008, UL created a "For Profit" subsidiary of the Mother Co. that is "Not for Profit". I wonder how big the subsidiary is today?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes indeed fire safety is tantamount , insurance or otherwise is up to your own level of risk.
Id rather pay upfront for some level of protection, rather than letting the courts decide the blame game.


Heck No! I would look for 3rd party certifications like UL / CSA in N. America. Full stop. CE logos is pretty much a joke on all things from PRC. They have altered a CE logo that at 1st glance looks almost the same as the official markings but it isn't (counterfeit). The industry standing joke is, that it stands for 'China Export'. The UL listing #'s can be looked up to verify. CE self certifications IMO are like the saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Nope and Nope.
As another poster has already pointed out, GFCI is for shock hazard protection only.
If you look at many utoob video /reviews of cheap CE outdoor lighting products, lots of folks are reporting the safety earth grounds are left not connected. ( clearly not passing ANY safety organizations directives.) all this points to perhaps there are other serious issues having to do with heat/fire. Underwriters Laboratories or CSA would shut them down in a heartbeat.

UL DOES NOT certify anything. They list...

Sometime around 2008, UL created a "For Profit" subsidiary of the Mother Co. that is "Not for Profit". I wonder how big the subsidiary is today?

I wonder why they did that. Seems like a conflict of interest to me...

 

[Infinia]

UL DOES NOT certify anything. They list...

UL does lots of things, 'listing' is at the top of their menu they also do 'approvals'

hmm UL uses that term too...

The key to getting the most out of your product certification is establishing open and frequent communication between you and your UL team, especially during the initial phases of the product submittal process
http://www.ul.com/customer-resources/faq/product-submittal-process-faq/

Anyways if you were truly observant you'll also note I said "like UL / CSA" > because they aren't the only safety organization that certifies products.

 

[ard]

Folks- the dimensions of what UL does are WAY beyond the scope of this thread.

They handle products from nuclear power plants to elevators to heart lung machines to extension cords. They do (or did) US FDA regulatory review, I believe they are in fact a Notified Body (and can handle a company's CE marking needs...at least UL Intl UK is)

It's not a worthwhile effort to slice and dice this one. For me, CE=UL.




And I particularly draw attention to cybrdyke's post....

 

[Infinia]

For me, CE=UL

woah why anyone would think or even say that out loud
Huge difference!! CE is not a 3rd party cert., UL has engineers looking closely at "things".
In your mind theyre in the same bucket because of counterfeiting concerns?
Importers of products must know this and love to see folks that think like you do too.

.
I would say this tho
CE is almost universally counterfeited.
The 'UL approval' marks can used legally for a variety reasons, 'UL listing' is least likely to be counterfeited there is a # issued for that. so not equal by any means. I think it is very important to understand the various tiers of certs.
Even cybrdykes link it's important to note> UL approval marks can be used once the product is submitted, but must be removed once it fails. I reckon the lawyers can keep the process in a infinite do over loop if you have the bucks.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

UL does lots of things, 'listing' is at the top of their menu they also do 'approvals'

hmm UL uses that term too...

The key to getting the most out of your product certification is establishing open and frequent communication between you and your UL team, especially during the initial phases of the product submittal process
http://www.ul.com/customer-resources/faq/product-submittal-process-faq/

Anyways if you were truly observant you'll also note I said "like UL / CSA" > because they aren't the only safety organization that certifies products.

well i stand corrected...

 

[Infinia]

well i stand corrected...

..