To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

FYI A not unusual fire cause!

493mike

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
148
Location
mid Michigan
In 2013 my wife discovered a fire in my woodshop and called the F.D. It had burned itself out of oxygen-luckily! The insurance adjuster didn't bat an eye when I told him the cause was a electrical receptacle. The receptacle was next to last in the daisy chain and neither of them had anything plugged in. My cousin claimed he had witnessed on two separate occasions a similar situation so this is not uncommon!
Evidently something shorts out causing sparks to spew forth igniting anything flammable although upon inspection, I found nothing I thought unusual in the receptacle.
This has made me nervous ever since. I did not use cheap components in the construction and the system was maybe 5 years old.

Beware fellas!
Mike
 

Attachments

  • 014.jpg
    014.jpg
    142.3 KB · Views: 1,447
  • 016.jpg
    016.jpg
    146.7 KB · Views: 1,468
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

matt_i

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
10,744
Location
SE Michigan
Was this on a GFI chain? Probably nobody will ever know if any current flowed on the ground (and not back on the neutral) but it would seem to help "monitor" a potential fault condition. Interesting that the breaker didn't get hot enough while drawing current to trip, guessing that's why the wiring seems perfect on the outside.

I've gone to taking the extra step of side-taping outlets, I had one in my early build fail to "set" the GFI because I had a loop of the ground which touched the neutral screw terminal as the outlet was fitted into the box. 4" square box with a single 5-15 outlet and an exposed work cover and you'd think there would be pullenty of volume in there but I managed to get unlucky and have a loop of bare copper touch where it wasn't supposed to.
 

79firebird

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
385
Location
Victoria bc
Was the outlet back stabbed? as i see lots melt at my old boss's place as it was all back stabbed faster to wire up for most.
 

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
One thing I notice is highly probably was non professional installed outlet, missing a staple for the left wire.

Push ins are not good, and the melted insulation described above is from heavy loads being pulled through a hi resistance push in connection.

I the outlet had never been used, or only for light loads, there would not be overheating that would melt the insul.

Anyway, pretty crazy how this thing started a fire without anything plugged in.

Very interesting, I'd be very curious to know the whole story, explained by an NFPA Electric inspector.

Also, when a box is "put to bed", the bare ground gets tucked way to the back first, then other wires folded over it to assure it's away from anything that would matter.

Marc
 

AntonLargiader

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Messages
1,372
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Maybe that sheetrock screw punctured the wire (dead center in the first pic) which is why the flame damage stopped there. Fed from above, daisy chain to the left. No load needed.
 

M0SES

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
14
Location
utah
Also, when a box is "put to bed", the bare ground gets tucked way to the back first, then other wires folded over it to assure it's away from anything that would matter.

Marc

How is the bare ground put in first if it is attached to the outlet? I've usually used those green wire nuts with a hole in the end. Is that a bad practice?
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,071
Location
Modesto, CA
If nothing was plugged in then the only thing i can see happening is a short in the wire that didnt cause enough current to flow but obviously threw sparks...
 

ForceFed70

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,441
Location
BC, Canada
Obviously not a professional install tho I've certainly seen worse.

And I agree - something more going on here. An arcing backstabbed outlet does not burn up like that.

You may want to test the overcurrent protection on that circuit.

Was anything plugged into a downstream outlet? You need a load before you get arcing from poor connections.
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
How is the bare ground put in first if it is attached to the outlet? I've usually used those green wire nuts with a hole in the end. Is that a bad practice?

The bulk of the ground is folded in first, then insulated conductors over the grounds, then the device is carefully pushed in, being aware of all the wires, especially any bare ground.

I never used the ground nuts w hole, just another thing to carry, and never understood the advantage.

I always pre twisted my wires , then clipped ends even, then gave a last chamfer like twist on the tip of the group, then the wirenut.

Not sure how that hole green nut would fit with that process.

I'm sure the green nuts are fine, when installed as intended.

Side note - I do think those Buchanan crimps are total **** though, UNLESS you notably pre twist tightly like at least an inch.


My way, anyway. Marc
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
So, examining the photo again, it sure appears the problem began definately IN the box.

Not from a rock screw, over hammered staple, but inside the box.

Only reason there is blackness on the OSB, is it was batt insulated after wiring w/o tucking any behind the wire, leaving an air tunnel.

The blackness did not follow the wire, but the air tunnel.

493mike sed - " I did not use cheap components in the construction and the system was maybe 5 years old."

So sounds like maybe he did the install?

Not placing blame, just thinkin out loud on all this.

I can see this possibly happening if a heavy load was plugged in and left alone for some hours, like a 1500w heater or something, AND there was a poor connection in the box for whatever reason.

But even then would kind off have to be like very rare confluence of stuff.

I mean assuming the plug/recept mating was tight.

If loose, alll bets are off.

But nothing was utilizing we're told, so I'm lost.

Again, would be very interested in what an electric fire pro would say.

Marc
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
493mike - What is that stuff that looks like wrinkly Saran Wrap all over the face of outlet??

The photo is not good enough to zoom in.

What is it? Marc
 
Last edited:

ForceFed70

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,441
Location
BC, Canada
I had assumed it was what was left of the plastic cover plate.

I agree - problem started in the box. Wonder if an animal stuffed it full of nesting material or something?
 

Cmreschke

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
775
Location
North of Detroit
Still need current flow of some sort to produce heat and sparks. If as the op stated only one receptacle downstream of this, and nothing plugged into either one then something worse was happening to create current flow.
 

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
Anton - I really do not see what screw you mean.

I have looked and looked.

I see three obvious screw heads in a vertical row, and possibly a 4th one below holding a little chunk of rock.

I see no screw that could be striking either wire.

Could you please explain which screw where?

Like O'clock and distance from box or something.

Marc
 
Last edited:

jchetty

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
431
Location
Central New Jersey
Anton - I really do not see what screw you mean.

I have looked and looked.

I see three obvious screw heads in a vertical row, and possibly a 4th one below holding a little chunk of rock.

I see no screw that could be striking either wire.

Could you please explain which screw where?

Like O'clock and distance from box or something.

Marc

He is talking about the stud to the left. If you look, it looks like some sheetrock is being held down by a screw. The picture is very fuzzy. But if that is a screw, it does appear to be inline with the hole that wire goes through.

Again- he is not talking about the stud connected to the wall outlet but the stud to the left.
 

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
jchetty - Thank you.

First off, on my computer, the part of the left stud that the cable goes through is cutoff at edge, so it is not in my photo.

Ahhh - Now I see you are talking about the first photo, farther away image, see that now, but still looks above wire, ( keep in mind the camera is looking somewhat downward, not level, not square to wall, and even then, it still looks above wire slightly) and even if at same level, "Normal" length rock screw and drilled to code hole should not conflict.

Certainly, if oddball long screw was used, and/or hole was offset toward inside, then could be a problem.

BUT, even if a screw there damaged the wire, that would not explain how the damage is centered within the box.

Forcefed - I tend to assume very little and rarely, unless totally obvious.

Certainly COULD logically be the coverplate, but from evidence presented, photo resolution, etc., uhhh, we don't KNOW that.

Anyone w more better info please step in, this is still a mystery to me.

Marc
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
Aso, that outlet 3 stud spaces to left appears to possibly be darkened ? ? ?

I am guessing here now totally, could this be a Lightning thing??

Seperate issue - Is this on a correctly sized breaker that properly functions?

Again, with no load it could be on a 1000A breaker, and should not matter in itself if open ckt.

Lastly - Probably irrelivent, but kinda odd height placement for what appears to be a finished room in a house.

Three hinges on door, entry door probably, interior door PROBABLY has only two, what kind of location is this?

Do we have the "rest of the story"? , OR was something plugged in??

Interesting to me the Insurance guy did not look closer, maybe small claim, and it was lunchtime.

Marc
 
Last edited:

Captain Spaulding

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
754
Location
Southern Indiana
Sure seems like there is a lot of stuff inside that box, but may be the picture quality.

With a working breaker, I don't think you'd get that kind of heat for it to be purely an electrical fire. I'd almost guess something like a bunch of asian beetles packed the outlet and enough current flowed to ignite them and anything else flammable to produce the smoke.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

checkthisout

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2008
Messages
5,232
1) No relief cut in the insulation for the wire hence the huge gap and the "chimney" the smoke from the box flowed through.

2) No staple at the box. When you go to shove the insulation into the cavity without a relief cut you place more stress than normal on the wires, then all that stress is transferred to the wires and connections in the box. Eventually things wear through, even if installed properly without any nicks or touching wires in the box.

Not a code Nazi, but my armchair internet diagnosis says this is 100% caused by poor work practices. I know that stings, I made a few DIY mistakes myself pretending I knew more than I really did, but take personal responsibility rather than trying to chalk it up to some "mystery" thing that failed and somehow causes us all to be at risk.
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
1) No relief cut in the insulation for the wire hence the huge gap and the "chimney" the smoke from the box flowed through.

2) No staple at the box. When you go to shove the insulation into the cavity without a relief cut you place more stress than normal on the wires, then all that stress is transferred to the wires and connections in the box. Eventually things wear through, even if installed properly without any nicks or touching wires in the box.

Not a code Nazi, but my armchair internet diagnosis says this is 100% caused by poor work practices. I know that stings, I made a few DIY mistakes myself pretending I knew more than I really did, but take personal responsibility rather than trying to chalk it up to some "mystery" thing that failed and somehow causes us all to be at risk.

Checkthisout - So you are saying this overheating was caused by pressure of the insulation and/ or the missing staple?

Marc
 

driftpin

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2016
Messages
11,304
Location
Miami-Dade/Broward Co. Florida
An interesting case. Taking the homeowner at face value, nothing providing a load. The condition of the front of the box tends to support that. There is no duplex outlet plug-in evident, you would likely have a bare two or three wire male plug w/its insulation burned-off coming out the front of the outlet. Nothing resembles that here.

If I was the AHJ for investigation of this, I would have clipped off the box wires back about a foot from the box, beyond any romex charring, and used a prybar to remove the box from the stud. I would have looked at the point of attachment under the wallbox to the stud, to see what type of deterioration there was between the box and the stud.

I agree that it appears the combustion began in the box. I may have missed a description of the type of box used, metal or plastic?

Back at the station, I would have removed the outlet from the box trying to keep-intact as-possible the front plate, the outlet, and the box. Lots of pictures from all angles would be done. Careful disassembly would have preserved the integrity of the components involved.

I also would have removed the adjoining duplex outlet on the same circuit, and taken that for purposes of comparison. I would have looked at the branch circuit breaker, taking plenty of pictures, and possibly using a sharpie to initial and date the circuit breaker, if it was going to be left in the branch panel.

The likelihood is that the duplex outlets were brought at the same time from the same place, and may have been in a 'contractor's pack,' say 10 duplex outlets packaged together. It's possible that a defect in one during a production run may be found in others manufactured at the same time. A disassembly of the adjoining component may (or may-not) reveal some issue of interest.

The usage that duplex outlets are subjected-to could also cause component failure. How-many of us have had to replace a duplex outlet due to lateral stress on an indwelling-plug fracturing the ground plastic or the hot or neutral slot? Rough usage can cause wear or failed components which may be seen by careful disassembly and evaluation.

Generally, electrical components like duplex outlets work or they don't, out of the box. If they don't it's one that slipped past whatever quality control methods are used by the manufacturer. That may be a standard random sampling of a timeframe of production, or it may be an 'every unit tested' method, I think probably the latter. If it makes it out of the factory, and is properly-installed in the end-user's application, it will probably give long service for the expected lifespan of the device. Premature failure is likely due to faulty installation not to accepted industry standards, or rough usage after installation, without replacement after experiencing a component failure of some-sort.

I am a career firefighter/paramedic, I am a licensed fire inspector, a fire service instructor, a plans examiner, and all those are current. My career began over 40 years ago, I'm now retired from the fire service but I keep my certifications and licenses up-to-date by college classes, in-service instruction, professional journals, and professional associations.
 

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend

forAK

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Messages
380
Location
Peters Creek AK
What would you assume about the char mark on the wall underneath the receptacle? Looks like something burned there, other than just the receptacle, underneath a ledge of some sort that may have been the planer shown in this pre-fire pic:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=463800&d=1438090055

Awesome observation and research. With fire burning up, why would the sheetrock below the outlet be scorched? Maybe the fire burned through the cord to the planer? Though the pic shows it being unplugged, it might not have been at the time of the fire.
 

mm08822

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
6,051
Location
NJ
Awesome observation and research. With fire burning up, why would the sheetrock below the outlet be scorched? Maybe the fire burned through the cord to the planer? Though the pic shows it being unplugged, it might not have been at the time of the fire.

Planer? Where did that info come from?
 

mm08822

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
6,051
Location
NJ
OP, how about some more details/pics?

Was it a gfci recept or standard recept?
Plastic cover plate, nylon plate, metal plate,etc.?
What was in front of the recept by the wall and floor?
What other flammable/combustible materials were close by?
Back stabbed connections (as asked before) or screws or clamp used?
What loads did this circuit serve?
What were the loads sizes and typical run times of the large loads?

What did FD finally conclude? Why?
 

NUTTSGT

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
51,110
Location
Northern Central Ohio
An interesting case. Taking the homeowner at face value, nothing providing a load. The condition of the front of the box tends to support that. There is no duplex outlet plug-in evident, you would likely have a bare two or three wire male plug w/its insulation burned-off coming out the front of the outlet. Nothing resembles that here.

If I was the AHJ for investigation of this, I would have clipped off the box wires back about a foot from the box, beyond any romex charring, and used a prybar to remove the box from the stud. I would have looked at the point of attachment under the wallbox to the stud, to see what type of deterioration there was between the box and the stud.

I agree that it appears the combustion began in the box. I may have missed a description of the type of box used, metal or plastic?

Back at the station, I would have removed the outlet from the box trying to keep-intact as-possible the front plate, the outlet, and the box. Lots of pictures from all angles would be done. Careful disassembly would have preserved the integrity of the components involved.

I also would have removed the adjoining duplex outlet on the same circuit, and taken that for purposes of comparison. I would have looked at the branch circuit breaker, taking plenty of pictures, and possibly using a sharpie to initial and date the circuit breaker, if it was going to be left in the branch panel.

The likelihood is that the duplex outlets were brought at the same time from the same place, and may have been in a 'contractor's pack,' say 10 duplex outlets packaged together. It's possible that a defect in one during a production run may be found in others manufactured at the same time. A disassembly of the adjoining component may (or may-not) reveal some issue of interest.

The usage that duplex outlets are subjected-to could also cause component failure. How-many of us have had to replace a duplex outlet due to lateral stress on an indwelling-plug fracturing the ground plastic or the hot or neutral slot? Rough usage can cause wear or failed components which may be seen by careful disassembly and evaluation.

Generally, electrical components like duplex outlets work or they don't, out of the box. If they don't it's one that slipped past whatever quality control methods are used by the manufacturer. That may be a standard random sampling of a timeframe of production, or it may be an 'every unit tested' method, I think probably the latter. If it makes it out of the factory, and is properly-installed in the end-user's application, it will probably give long service for the expected lifespan of the device. Premature failure is likely due to faulty installation not to accepted industry standards, or rough usage after installation, without replacement after experiencing a component failure of some-sort.

I am a career firefighter/paramedic, I am a licensed fire inspector, a fire service instructor, a plans examiner, and all those are current. My career began over 40 years ago, I'm now retired from the fire service but I keep my certifications and licenses up-to-date by college classes, in-service instruction, professional journals, and professional associations.


Great analysis and informative. I think we would both agree that determining the cause via the 'net would be hard. I wish I could take a further look at it in person.

One thing I noticed, like a few other members pointed out, the drywall screw in the stud left of the receptacle. I'd take a further look at that.

Another item I notice with the OP stating the work is 5 years old. I see white Romex (NM) and if it's recent, that should be 14 gauge. What's the breaker in the box and what has been plugged into it over the last 5 years ?

Electricity seems to do some weird **** when it involves fire.
 

NUTTSGT

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
51,110
Location
Northern Central Ohio
First off, I am not a fire fighter, nor an inspector.
My question is why is there so much smoke damage on the floor and below the outlet?
Richard

Hard to tell without actually being there to get hands on the scene. Could be "drop down". ... basically something that catches on fire and drops down onto floor and burns causing "false positive" origin of fire.

Not sure if you understand, I was trying to make it easy to understand in layman terms. :dunno:
 

mm08822

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
6,051
Location
NJ
What would you assume about the char mark on the wall underneath the receptacle? Looks like something burned there, other than just the receptacle, underneath a ledge of some sort that may have been the planer shown in this pre-fire pic:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=463800&d=1438090055

Seeing that pic, makes me think the fire originated in the planer. If it was recently used before the fire, even if unplugged after use, shavings could have been smoldering within the enclosure. Planer could have been rolled back against wall and after OP left shop, fire lit up the planer. Wall and recept damage are just consequential damage.

OP, is any of that scenario possible?
 

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
No, I don't think the recept damage came from outside source, directly anyway I mean, cause it appears by the burned romex sheath exiting the j box, and the smoke trail inside wall, to me says excessive heat originating INSIDE box.

That's my hypothesis for now anyway.


Nutts - Actually, almost for sure It would be 12G, not 14.

But either way, probably, IMHO, no matter.

New point - Notice absence of charring on stud face to right and below j box - But yet, it appears the cutout rock covering that was black as hell - Judging by appearance of remaining rock to lower right of j box.

I don't know what that may mean, but definately a clue.

We can be a collective "Monk", lets keep at it. Marc
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
Also, what's with that little like cloud of smoke damage located 1" to left of door casing - Just to left of riremans gloved hand??

And - WHY that weird horizontal line of damage starting at the base of the "cloud", and extending to left, going to the lower left corner of cut out rock hole?

Also notice the triangle area of rock above the line is pretty white.

The left side of the cloud, at the base of it, it's as if something was against the wall,acting as a shelf, smoke behind that something, then at the right edge of that "shelf", smoke not restricted, was able to go up and create that cloud like plume, that stops by the door casing.

Marc
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
About the "OP says work 5 yrs old" -

Didn't romex (NM cable) #12 change to yellow for easy identification when it changed to NM-B ??

Happened in late 80's.

could still be white ONLY if old NM (12 or14), OR new NM-B 14G

So, the cable in photo is either old style NM 15 OR 20, OR 15A NM-B.

I may be mistaken but it cannot be #12 NM-B in the photos.

My understanding is that #12 NM-B was NEVER available in white.

-- Unless.....

For some years code allowed still using old stock NM, (Code geeks enter here)
But isn't it verboten by now?

Is the sheath color code even mandated current code?

Like around 2000, It wasn't.

Code guys answer please.

Did any of my gibberish above make sense ?




This post was started 6 days ago by 493mike.

He hasn't chimed in since.

Would be great to hear from him again.

Marc
 
Last edited:

Marctrees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
6,265
Location
TX/LA border - Toledo Bend
OK Guys - Here's what happened - Actually mm08822 figured it out -

AND - Credit to Anton for his photo link !!

The planer was very close against the wall, and the fire started in the planer, somewhere below the platen height.

That was what Anton referred to as a "ledge", that I sloppily re named "shelf" in my above post.

So either INSIDE the cabinet base, OR right on top of cab, under the platen.

Go To Anton's linked photo, and scale out w a ruler the height of the platen, and that white/ black horizontal charring line on the wall.

ALSO note - the white triangle I spoke of in post #37 was above the platen height, and shielded from the fire by the side frame of the planer above the platen.

The planer was IN place VERY close to wall when fire happened, and it was where the fire started.

Nothing to do with a defect in the wall recept or wiring.

That was all a casualty of the planer fire.

So, I no longer believe as I said earlier that the fire started in the j box, but still unclear on why it is sooo melted.

A slight possible twist here though - It may be more accurate to hypothesize that - MAYBE the ORIGINAL source of fire was not within the planer, BUT - STILL it is obvious the planer WAS against the wall during the fire, and at the very least, contributed fuel to the fire.

So MAYBE, the original source was outside of the planer, maybe in the j box, but again, the planer WAS against the wall, maybe not cleaned out, so something ignited the shavings.

Marc
 
Last edited:

AntonLargiader

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Messages
1,372
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Didn't romex (NM cable) #12 change to yellow for easy identification when it changed to NM-B ??

Happened in late 80's

Just looked it up because I've been curious about that. Yes, NM-b dates from 1986 or so but the coloring started in the early 2000s and is not dictated by code, so NM-b can still be produced in any color. Orange, yellow and white (10, 12, 14) seem to be just conventions.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom