DIY AC installation - how hard can it be?

[ishiboo]

I have a few split systems and 2 central air conditioning systems to install, in addition to a broken portable AC I use occasionally at the rentals. I was thinking it may not be a bad idea to get a vacuum pump and manifold set/gauges to do this myself.

Is that a terrible idea? Seems like it should be something one could learn to easily DIY?

 

[kd3pc]

it is a terrible idea, unless you have minimum training and EPA certification...as you need to add an evacuation unit to your list of needs, likely one for each refrigerant, some nitrogen to test and look for leaks. Torches and silver solder if you are going to make the repair. And so on.

Good techs get good training. OJT will work, but not in a week.

YMMV

 

[ishiboo]

I thought since these are new systems and one that's drained, the vacuum pump would do all I needed since there is no refrigerant to recover. I have the torches and silver solder already. Oh well, I have a cheap HVAC guy that will do the final work once I've done the hookup, just thought it'd be nice to be independent.

 

[Trey T]

Depends what sort of background you have. HVAC installation can be daunting because it involves w/ various understand, as followed:

1. refrigeration process
2. handling of refrigerant material (EPA cert)
3. AC electrical hook-up and safety
4. Low power stuff (Transformer, relay, switching)
5. Brazing copper
6. testing and measurement of power and refrigeration process

If you can learn and practice all of that, do for it!!!

 

[Angry welder]

To answer "how cheap can it be", to do your own HVAC install. On the back of most EPA cards, the ones you get so that you can purchase refrigerant, is a number that you can call if you find someone that has intentionally leaked refrigerant into atmosphere and the fine is 10,000 dollars for the offending person.

 

[oilslick]

It isn't rocket science. Equip yourself with knowledge and tools, should be nothing stopping you, ignore the doubtful. If you were working with an ammonia system , I would recommend some on the job training and a little safety study first.

 

[Ohmthis]

While I agree it's not rocket science or some black magic, there is a lot to the trade. There are little things/details that are very hard/impossible to know if you haven't worked under someone in the trade. One of the things that makes people shy away from doing the work DIY, is the upfront cost of tools. A set of gauges, vacuum pump, and refrigerant is all that most think is needed. I have propbably, $3000-$4000 in tools for the trade. Are all of these needed for all jobs, no, but just to do an install there are torches, brazing rod, VCRT, basic hand tools, lineset bender, swaging tool, thermal trap paste, hammer drill, cordless drill/impact, micron gauge, bubbles, vacuum pump, dedicated vacuum rated hoses, meter, manifold gauge set, pvc cutters, pvc cleaner/glue, assortment of snips/tinning tools, and the list goes on. There is easily $1600-$1800 just in this group. Then I haven't gotten into the gas side of an install. Today's marketing has made a lot of people think that all jobs can be DIY. Home Depot/Lowes, HGTV, and other outlets make you believe you can do anything. I worked at the Depot while going through my apprenticeship. I can't tell you how many people I had to tell them that they needed a professional to do their job. More than half got miffed and said Ive seen this done before and you sell the things to do it, so why can't I? They couldn't get it that they didn't have the basic skills to do their project. So in a long winded way I'll answer your question. Only you know your skill level, and only you know your means to purchase and use the required tools. If you choose to venture into this world, do yourself a huge favor and study and get an EPA cert. This will open a part of your thinking that you haven't thought of in the trade. Then watch and read as much as you can on the equipment you plan to use. I wish you luck.

 

[6768rogues]

I admit that there is a lot to know. I got tired of paying big dollars to get the AC on my cars fixed, so I bought a few technical manuals (hours of reading and studying) and some tools, gauges, etc. and now I do some of it myself. If necessary, I have the guy at the corner garage evacuate for me. There are some things I can fix and some I cannot, but I have installed aftermarket systems on classic cars myself as well as some repairs on my modern cars. Same theory for home units, the more you know and do yourself, the more money you can save. Sometimes you have to call in a professional, though.

 

[Davefr]

It isn't rocket science. Equip yourself with knowledge and tools, should be nothing stopping you, ignore the doubtful. If you were working with an ammonia system , I would recommend some on the job training and a little safety study first.

Actually HVAC IS rocket science!

I installed my own 4T HP system and would do it again in a heartbeat. The quotes I was getting averaged around $10K and some of these hacks didn't even do a load calc!!

I bought all the components for about $2500 + about $1500 in tools. I studied all I could and did get my EPA card.

The actual work is pretty easy but "the devil's in the details" and some of this stuff isn't too forgiving to errors.

As long as your willing to invest the time in the learning phase then go for it.

 

[Falcon67]

I have a pump - I'll do auto AC, but call somebody for the house. Too many things to go wrong. If these are rentals, remember you are an "active participant" and every nickle is deductible. Helps reduce your rental income to the IRS and if done properly it's one less likely call from a tenant.

 

[Milton Shaw]

When you get your card and friends find out you will get busy real quick and in the worst kind of weather. To hot in summer on roofs and int attics and too cold in winter in same locations. It's a good source of extra income but can really take up some time as there is a lot of troubleshooting and then having to go get the parts to repair. Even techs with vans full of equipment often have to go get additional parts, and even call other techs to see what they think the problem if its more than just low on refigerant.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

To answer "how cheap can it be", to do your own HVAC install. On the back of most EPA cards, the ones you get so that you can purchase refrigerant, is a number that you can call if you find someone that has intentionally leaked refrigerant into atmosphere and the fine is 10,000 dollars for the offending person.

There is no phone number to report venting. There is a website:

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/report-environmental-violations

The fine can be as much as $37,500/per day...

Tommy

 

[Showkey]

When I got my EPA refrig card, it was online course and self test and $20. Nobody as asked to see it in the last 15 years.

Ish you have it correct, vacuum pump, gauge set, torch, mechanical and electrical skills will do the trick. If the line length is in the ball park the precharged new unit might be all that's needed. If it needs more refrigerant hire a tech to "top off and tune" the system pressures.

If your removing a charged system, hire someone to recover the system. If the old system is down because it has leaks, then no recovery is needed.

Some will say no warranty on DIY install ? That is possible even likely but you can buy 3 additional complete units for parts for the price of one unit plus installation and still be ahead.

 

[Falcon67]

When I got my EPA refrig card, it was online course and self test and $20. Nobody as asked to see it in the last 15 years.

I took the auto for $25. I think I filed it a couple of places when I cared to buy R-12.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Everybody seems to think the epa certification is some sort of magic card that allows to do anything you want.
Show it to a city inspector when he catches you out working on a airconditioning system and see how far it gets you.

 

[Davefr]

Everybody seems to think the epa certification is some sort of magic card that allows to do anything you want.
Show it to a city inspector when he catches you out working on a airconditioning system and see how far it gets you.

In most jurisdictions a homeowner can repair their own HVAC systems without any additional permits/certification.

I agree that before anyone performs any HVAC work, they need to do lots of homework. The EPA test only scratches the surface of the knowledge required.

It's quite easy if everything goes right. It requires a much higher depth of understanding if things don't go right. The "devil's in the details".

P.S. Most pros won't touch an HVAC system started by a homeowner. Either do it all yourself or leave everything to a pro.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Everybody seems to think the epa certification is some sort of magic card that allows to do anything you want.
Show it to a city inspector when he catches you out working on a airconditioning system and see how far it gets you.

Z, the EPA 608 cert's the ONLY cert for HVAC, so I have no idea what you're saying. Legally, you can't touch the refrigerant side of a system without it...

Tommy

 

[hdossett]

... The EPA test only scratches the surface of the knowledge required. ...

Just looked at my EPA cards, 608 & 609, they were dated 1994. If memory serves, there was only EPA stuff on the test, when and what laws were passed concerning refrigerants, when to recover, etc.. Things like that. Nothing about A/C work itself.

No AC tools left today, but I did just buy a set of gauges from HF and looking at their Vac pump. May have an auto A/C compressor going out!

H

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Z, the EPA 608 cert's the ONLY cert for HVAC, so I have no idea what you're saying. Legally, you can't touch the refrigerant side of a system without it...

Tommy

Ive got several differant epa certifications.
Around here (omaha/bellevue)you can't legally work on an air conditioner without at atleast a journeyman hvac license or a contractors license the city is really a bunch of pricks about it.
Johnstone and most places will not sell parts to anyone without a license ,even for heating parts.
In bellevue the city inspectors actually drive around looking for people working on stuff,all it takes is,a ***** *** neighbor to make a phone call.
I remember a guy getting tossed in jail a few years back in bellevue for fixing his stop box without a license.
Not the actual water service,just the riser coming off for the wrench to go down.
So yeah they think theyre Chicago or new york around here also.

 

[brewchief]

EPA card simply means that you have a very basic knowledge of refrigerants and are legally able to work on equipment containing them. In over 20 years I've never needed to show mine.

The number of people fined by the EPA for venting refrigerant is very low, last time I heard it was only a handful.

Most wholesalers won't sell to you without a contractors license, they may want to see an EPA card as well but an EPA card by itself won't get you very far.

DIY A/C work is certainly possible IF you are willing to put the time and research in AND not skimp out on buying all the tools needed.

Don't plan on doing part of the job and then have a pro come and wrap it up, very few good contractors want any part of jobs like that, it's one of those things that always comes back to haunt you so it's better to just pass on those types of jobs.

If you plan on doing work in rental units that you own check your local laws carefully as some areas prohibit the owner from doing certain types of work.

 

[Davefr]

No AC tools left today, but I did just buy a set of gauges from HF and looking at their Vac pump. May have an auto A/C compressor going out!

H

FYI, "most" dial manifold gauges are worthless when it comes to pulling a vacuum.

When vacuuming a system, you need to get to <500 microns. It takes a special micron gauge to read vacuum this low. It also takes some good quality/low loss hoses/fittings.

 

[tab2]

Research, research, research. I did a mini split up to the nitrogen test, evacuate and refrigerant release. I am a construction manager so I called one of our HVAC subs to send a service guy out and he did the rest. He told me I could was better than most of his guys, but I didn't do any "specialty" work unless you count flaring the line sets. I would do the same for a central system, everything up to the refrigerant.

If you do all the prep and have a buddy who YOU won't hit up for warranty labor costs (but have him get the parts for you) when stuff breaks I would go that route. As someone else mentioned, every dollar spent you can declare as a cost, so depending how good a buddy he is you can make it work for the both of you...

 

[Trey T]

Everybody seems to think the epa certification is some sort of magic card that allows to do anything you want.
Show it to a city inspector when he catches you out working on a airconditioning system and see how far it gets you.

It's pretty clear, Z; the difference between a certification vs license, for most practices in our country, is the license allow you provide $ervice$ to other people while a certification is only for yourself.

Don't try to scare people, teach them and let them decide. If you don't have the knowledge or patience to lead people, just be in a listening mode!!!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It's pretty clear, Z; the difference between a certification vs license, for most practices in our country, is the license allow you provide $ervice$ to other people while a certification is only for yourself.

Don't try to scare people, teach them and let them decide. If you don't have the knowledge or patience to lead people, just be in a listening mode!!!

Around here and most places I've done work (nebraska/iowa/kansas/misouri/south dakota/north dakota/ certain parts of california) most supply houses will not sell you refrigerants without a license.
And most cities I've been in will not allow a homeowner to pull a permit for an ac install,you can get around a furnace install permit as a home owner in many places though.
No inspector I've ever met wants to be on the hook for a homeowner dumping a bunch of r22 into the air when their install or repair goes south.
But like I said check with your local inspector 1st to make sure .
As far as teaching people goes I've taught more apprentice plumbers/steam fitters/electricians and hvac service guys over 30 plus years than you I'd be willing to bet.
I don't need to scare anybody,I'm telling them what to really expect.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I'd say all the wholesale houses around here are going to ask for a 608 cert card to buy r22, I've been asked a lot to show my card.
Reminds me of one time at a automotive supply I was buying something for my car AC and I told the guy I also needed a few small cans of R12 and he says I can't sell it to you and I said "Why, I can buy R12 with my 608 cert" and he said "I know you can but not in containers of less that 30lbs. cylinders".
I never checked to see if he was right or not.........those were the good old days, R12 or R22 in 30lbs. jugs for $40.........wish I would have bought a thousand of them.....lol To close to the woods to see the forest I guess

 

[LS6 Tommy]

It's pretty clear, Z; the difference between a certification vs license, for most practices in our country, is the license allow you provide $ervice$ to other people while a certification is only for yourself.

Not quite. The EPA Certification IS your license to work on HVAC equipment. You can't legally do it without the cert. In most parts of the country, there is no HVAC License, only a business license. NJ now has an HVAC Contractor's license, but you don't need it to work for an HVAC contractor. You DO need the EPA cert to work for a contractor.

Tommy

 

[nsula_country]

I'd say all the wholesale houses around here are going to ask for a 608 cert card to buy r22, I've been asked a lot to show my card.
Reminds me of one time at a automotive supply I was buying something for my car AC and I told the guy I also needed a few small cans of R12 and he says I can't sell it to you and I said "Why, I can buy R12 with my 608 cert" and he said "I know you can but not in containers of less that 30lbs. cylinders".
I never checked to see if he was right or not.........those were the good old days, R12 or R22 in 30lbs. jugs for $40.........wish I would have bought a thousand of them.....lol To close to the woods to see the forest I guess

EPA 609 is for mobile equipment requiring CFC-12. Cannot purchase HCFC-22 in any quantity. Exception is busses that use R22... Must have an EPA 608 Type II or Type IV Universal to service them.

EPA 608 is for stationary equipment. Required to purchase ozone-depleting and HFC refrigerants. Cannot purchase CFC-12 in under 20 lb containers.

EPA 608 also has 4 types of certification. I, II, III and IV. IV being "universal" that can service all types of EPA 608 equipment. I have an EPA Universal.

Hope this is clear as mud.

EPA Website link with more details.

https://www.epa.gov/section608/overlap-between-section-608-and-section-609

As for "license" for HVAC work... Anyone that touches equipment, stationary or mobile must have proper 608 or 609. IF one has the proper certification they can work on the equipment "not-for-hire", legally per the EPA. If for hire, local and state licenses for the trade are required.

The EPA 608 and 609 is just a record (that the EPA has) that you signed an agreement to handle restricted refrigerants with responsibility and that you understand the penalties for mishandling said refrigerants. Nothing more.

CT

 

[Gila Monster]

You're not going to get into any sort of legal trouble working on your own's home's AC unit. I see people peddle this all the time.

I'd love to see one documented prosecution of a homeowner adding refrigerant into their own AC unit and getting any sort of legal punishment.

Now if you start charging to work on OTHER people's HVAC equipment as a technician for pay without the proper licenses, that's when you can get into legal trouble.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

You're not going to get into any sort of legal trouble working on your own's home's AC unit. I see people peddle this all the time.

I'd love to see one documented prosecution of a homeowner adding refrigerant into their own AC unit and getting any sort of legal punishment.

Now if you start charging to work on OTHER people's HVAC equipment as a technician for pay without the proper licenses, that's when you can get into legal trouble.

And like I said repeatedly:check with your local city inspector about whether or not you can pull a mechanical pemit as a home owner to install your own ac in your area.
They will either say you can or you cant.
What is so freaking hard about going to the source versus listening to a bunch of guys on line who don't live in your area and don't have anything to lose?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

EPA 609 is for mobile equipment requiring CFC-12. Cannot purchase HCFC-22 in any quantity. Exception is busses that use R22... Must have an EPA 608 Type II or Type IV Universal to service them.

EPA 608 is for stationary equipment. Required to purchase ozone-depleting and HFC refrigerants. Cannot purchase CFC-12 in under 20 lb containers.

EPA 608 also has 4 types of certification. I, II, III and IV. IV being "universal" that can service all types of EPA 608 equipment. I have an EPA Universal.

Hope this is clear as mud.

EPA Website link with more details.

https://www.epa.gov/section608/overlap-between-section-608-and-section-609

As for "license" for HVAC work... Anyone that touches equipment, stationary or mobile must have proper 608 or 609. IF one has the proper certification they can work on the equipment "not-for-hire", legally per the EPA. If for hire, local and state licenses for the trade are required.

The EPA 608 and 609 is just a record (that the EPA has) that you signed an agreement to handle restricted refrigerants with responsibility and that you understand the penalties for mishandling said refrigerants. Nothing more.

CT

I couldn't have said it better.

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

FYI, "most" dial manifold gauges are worthless when it comes to pulling a vacuum.

When vacuuming a system, you need to get to <500 microns. It takes a special micron gauge to read vacuum this low. It also takes some good quality/low loss hoses/fittings.

MVAC techniques don't require anywhere near the same depth of vacuum as HVAC techniques do. They use compressed air powered "vacuum pumps" that are nothing more than a venturi based system that pulls most of the atmosphere out of the system. Many times the service manuals state things like "pull a vacuum for 15 minutes before charging the system."

That didn't even fly in the "Old Days" for HVAC...

Tommy

 

[Stuff]

Also supposedly some of the EPA regs were were never fully approved. There is a change scheduled for 2018 that is supposed to clarify/tighten up some of the requirements.

 

[Trey T]

Not quite. The EPA Certification IS your license to work on HVAC equipment. You can't legally do it without the cert. In most parts of the country, there is no HVAC License, only a business license. NJ now has an HVAC Contractor's license, but you don't need it to work for an HVAC contractor. You DO need the EPA cert to work for a contractor.

Tommy

Please don't get confuse w/ license vs. certificate, but perhaps this is one of those tomato-vs.-toMAto...

BTW, EPA section 608 does NOT required that you're certified to work on HVAC system as an apprentice. Read here

In our country, license and certificate has a very distinctive meanings. License simply means that you can provide a service to public on your own, whether you're a technician or business owner. Certificate simply means that you know the subject but not yet ready to open up a business yet.

Now, the license has a particular subject of its own and it varies b/t states. In texas, there is such a thing as HVAC technician license and HVAC contractor license (read here). I'm pretty sure most states, if not all, requires some form of HVAC contractor/business license to provide service to the public.

 

[Gila Monster]

And like I said repeatedly:check with your local city inspector about whether or not you can pull a mechanical pemit as a home owner to install your own ac in your area.
They will either say you can or you cant.
What is so freaking hard about going to the source versus listening to a bunch of guys on line who don't live in your area and don't have anything to lose?

There's some local jurisdictions that require a permit for installing your own dishwasher. You think I'm going to pull a permit for that?

I'm referring to federal laws, the EPA, etc. when talking about adding refrigerant or REPAIRING your own AC unit.

Local codes and permits are a whole different thing, but even there, you're not going to get into any legal trouble making repairs on your own house even if these things are on the books.

I always see people try to scare monger that a homeowner is going to be locked up by the Feds if they do something like add a pound of refrigerant to their AC system.

Can you do something stupid and hurt yourself or damage your property? Of course, you can also do that changing your car's oil. But you're not going to get into legal trouble.

P.S., I also sometimes drive 70mph on the freeway in a 65mph zone

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

There's some local jurisdictions that require a permit for installing your own dishwasher. You think I'm going to pull a permit for that?

I'm referring to federal laws, the EPA, etc. when talking about adding refrigerant or REPAIRING your own AC unit.

Local codes and permits are a whole different thing, but even there, you're not going to get into any legal trouble making repairs on your own house even if these things are on the books.

I always see people try to scare monger that a homeowner is going to be locked up by the Feds if they do something like add a pound of refrigerant to their AC system.

Can you do something stupid and hurt yourself or damage your property? Of course, you can also do that changing your car's oil. But you're not going to get into legal trouble.

P.S., I also sometimes drive 70mph on the freeway in a 65mph zone

No what I'm saying is if you want to know if it's legal for a home owner to install their own freaking ac in their own damned house call the city and ask them.
I didn't say you have to pull a permit if you don't want to,I said to call and ask them if it's freaking legal for a home owner to do it themselves instead of relying on a bunch of people that don't live in your area to tell what's legal and what's not.
What's so damned hard to understand about that?

 

[Gila Monster]

No what I'm saying is if you want to know if it's legal for a home owner to install their own freaking ac in their own damned house call the city and ask them.
I didn't say you have to pull a permit if you don't want to,I said to call and ask them if it's freaking legal for a home owner to do it themselves instead of relying on a bunch of people that don't live in your area to tell what's legal and what's not.
What's so damned hard to understand about that?

Do you call your local government and ask permission to work on something in your own home?

This is garage journal, not a lawyer forum.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Do you call your local government and ask permission to work on something in your own home?

This is garage journal, not a lawyer forum.

You don't have to give them a name or an adress,all you're doing is,asking them a question.
You've got guys on here saying you can do it yourself,all you need is a universal epa cert.
And others saying you might not be able to do it yourself.
If you want to get past all the bs and get the question answered ask the city. What is so freaking hard about getting that through your head?
As far as doing stuff on my own properties I've been a licensed electrical and plumbing contractor for a lot of years,I know the building codes in my area,and with in a 100 mile radius.
I don't know where the origional poster lives or what the codes are in that area,neither does anybody else on here unless they live in that area.
But get this,if you call an ask an inspector in that area what permits a home owner can pull with out giving them a name or address they will be able to tell you!

 

[Gila Monster]

You don't have to give them a name or an adress,all you're doing is,asking them a question.
You've got guys on here saying you can do it yourself,all you need is a universal epa cert.
And others saying you might not be able to do it yourself.
If you want to get past all the bs and get the question answered ask the city. What is so freaking hard about getting that through your head?
As far as doing stuff on my own properties I've been a licensed electrical and plumbing contractor for a lot of years,I know the building codes in my area,and with in a 100 mile radius.
I don't know where the origional poster lives or what the codes are in that area,neither does anybody else on here unless they live in that area.
But get this,if you call an ask an inspector in that area what permits a home owner can pull with out giving them a name or address they will be able to tell you!

The original question thread was never "Am I legally allowed to work on my own AC equipment" it was "how hard can it be?"

For whatever strange reason, you seem to be the one obsessed with this question of whether its "legal" and how the guy should ask the city first. The guy is not a technician working on other people's equipment.

Do you really think even if there is a building code code on the books about repairing your own AC that its going to be enforced on a homeowner?


I was just responding to all the EPA silliness about the certifications and how they are going to go after some homeowner for DIY AC repair on his own AC.


What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[jacob_coulter]

I don't get why AC repair people get so "legalistic" about home owners making AC repairs.

Who really cares?

If a guy had a question about replacing his water heater, I wouldn't tell him to go ask the city if he had permission first.

You're far more likely to get struck by lightning than in legal hot water doing a DIY repair.

I guess if someone likes to change their motor oil, we need to first make sure they have all their EPA certifications in order to handle hazardous waste.

 

[Brian_WK]

HVAC work is as hard as rebuilding an engine. If it's your first time you are going to **** something up and you better know somebody that knows what they are doing and willing to bail you out.

Brian