The VISES of Garage Journal

[gman007]

WOW, A lot of info here. My father gave me this vise 25 years ago and I always remember it being a back up in his garage for 20 years prior to that.

Thought maybe I would give it some TLC but just curious how old it is. I have googled it and found info on Morgan Chicago but not the "STAR" marking on it.

In addition to the info that Tonellin just provided, there is a thread here already that has some info

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107007&page=2
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107007&page=3

 

[jrobb316]

The Star is a lighter duty model. So its a 4.5" jaw with a 4" body, etc. They were originally marketed for department stores. Same material, just a wee bit lighter in weight. My source is the factory, I was at the Morgan plant picking up a base for a Milw. Star I gifted to my dad and asked what they actually were, so I think you can take that one to the bank

 

[BrettJ74]

Here is some Morgan info from their website. This is for those of you like me who don't click the provided links.


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[sgs236]

I picked up this little vise today at the scrap yard. Never seen anything quite like it. On side has an indian and the word scout. On the other side it has "Craft Art" and "Made in E. F. H. S. Machine Shop" . EFHS is East Fairmont High School, a local high school. I asked a couple of people who went there in the mid seventies and they didn't remember it having a machine shop at that time. Only thing is that I noticed the jaw pads have hex screws, so it might not be as old as I think it is.

 

[va.grouseman]

I personally don't think the Star is anything more than the American Scale Red Seal, the Prentiss Monarch Lion Head, the Yost Diamond Jewel, the Columbian Red Arrow, etc..---A marketing logo/moniker of sorts.---JMO.

I posted this one not long ago.

 

[Outlawmws]

SGS, that is a VERY cool find! I'm noting the threads are not Acme.

Was the school mascot an Indian? maybe named scout?

 

[G-ManBart]

I just saw this vise on Craigslist.

Yep...have someone looking at it tomorrow. I don't keep many of the vises I find since I'd rather see them go back to work than sit on a shelf for decades doing nothing but taking up space

 

[sgs236]

SGS, that is a VERY cool find! I'm noting the threads are not Acme.

Was the school mascot an Indian? maybe named scout?

No, the Mascot has always been the Bees for as long as I can remember. The next time I'm at the barber shop, I'll ask some old timers if they remember a machine shop at the high school. It is pretty amazing to think they might have had a mold and cast their own vise.

 

[eddieK]

"I just removed the swivel pin on my 19 1/2 Prentiss.

One I removed the main nut I found the base center bolt hole lined up with it and just used a drift after the original soak in mineral oil - a lot of Kroil- and a cook in an electrolysis tank, then knocked it right out."

Eddiek--thanks for the above tip. I pulled the swivel base off and removed the main nut as you did. Sure enough, there was access to the bolt/pivot pin from underneath. The bolt was wedged in well so more soaking with Kroil from the bottom and today it popped out with help from the hammer and drift. Machined surfaces on the pivoting jaw and main vise casting are all nice--just in need of a clean-up.

Again, thanks--a potentially tough job made easy.

Tom B.

Awesome - funny how success like that makes you feel. I swear the wife thinks I'm nuts, she keeps saying when she sees me playing with vises "you're in your happy place"...

 

[ecotec]

Yep...have someone looking at it tomorrow. I don't keep many of the vises I find since I'd rather see them go back to work than sit on a shelf for decades doing nothing but taking up space

Well, it looks beautiful. You did a great job on it. It is way out of my price point, though.

I am going to check out your website. Maybe I will see you at some estate sales.

 

[Mister J]

I picked up this Record no6 today. It's in pretty good shape, just a few marks in the jaw area, nobody hammered on the slide. It still has a lot of the original blue paint underneath a thick flaking coat of gray. Still good and tight. The handle is bent a little. $40.

Any ideas on the age? It has that little bump on the moving jaw, just above the knob of the leadscrew, and the knob of the leadscrew has the little decorative groove instead of being just plain cylindrical. I know the more recent ones don't have the little bump or groove. I found this stamp underneath:

Is this the year it was made? The Record no3 still in the box that I picked up last week had "B89" stamped on it in nearly the same spot, and that vice can't be newer than 1991 because the hardware store it was purchased from went out of business in 1991.

Does anybody know if they stamped the year of manufacture on these things? Maybe some of you guys who bought your Records new, or otherwise have a good idea of when they were purchased, could have a look underneath yours and see if there are similar stamps.

Also, does anyone know how to remove the little knobs on the end of the handle?

 

[gman007]

It is your luck day, you too can own this magnificent vise for only $200! (or even better for $225 plus $100 shipping, see below)

In the first add it is advertised as "lightly used,"
with these extra following features (which attest to "lightly used," status!!!)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352026963909?ul_noapp=true

1- Possibly broken and welded/brazed slide bar (where slide bar meets the dynamic jaw) covered up with extra paint.
2- Broken lower backend/support of the static jaw housing and partly exposed swivel base
3- Cracked Slide bar
4- Chipped jaw
5- Missing screw garter (replaced with much nicer ordinary washer)
6- Missing swivel arm
7- Are the jaw curved or is it just the brass jaws that are curved, hard to tell

All of which prove that the vise was "lightly and lovingly used"

It is also advertised a second time shockingly as "used"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221853507011?rmvSB=true

for $225 plus $100 shipping!! just in case you think $200 is too low and would like to spend more!

Please take care to avoid crashing your car while rushing to DeKalb, Illinois to pickup the vise

 

[dsiddens]

A Youngster Wilton C0

This is my boat vise, it's only about 10 years old. I like it.

 

[topop101]

I personally don't think the Star is anything more than the American Scale Red Seal, the Prentiss Monarch Lion Head, the Yost Diamond Jewel, the Columbian Red Arrow, etc..---A marketing logo/moniker of sorts.---JMO.

I posted this one not long ago.

VA I agree with you on the others but as for the American scale red seal , It was there top dog. They made American , American Scale, and the red seal. There is a very noticeable difference from a 4" American Scale vs the Red Seal. Much heavier. Much tighter. I've worked on many of both and the difference is staggering not only in size but quality as well. I'd match my post WWll ASRS against any ... JMO

 

[dutchgray]

Mister J

That stamp is generally believed to be a date stamp, though you won't always find one, I have a couple where it doesn't make sense, but that was probably the guys doing it messing around.

The handle ends are pressed on I believe, sometimes you find a well used vice where they have walked off a bit. I wouldn't remove them unless absolutely necessary though.

 

[Jawn]

Trying to get this thing apart... how the heck does the retaining ring around the screw come loose from the moving jaw? I assume it's like a gland nut on a hydraulic cylinder and just unthreads, but if so it's either left thread or it's stuck dang tight.

Everything else so far on it has come apart pretty easily.

Additional pic for reference:

 

[gman007]

Trying to get this thing apart... how the heck does the retaining ring around the screw come loose from the moving jaw? I assume it's like a gland nut on a hydraulic cylinder and just unthreads, but if so it's either left thread or it's stuck dang tight.

Everything else so far on it has come apart pretty easily.

Additional pic for reference:

There seems to be fair amount of rust around that area and perhaps the rust between retaining ring and dynamic jaw has fused the two. Have you tired the usual tricks (soaking in Kroil, heating, knocking on the ring etc)?

 

[Mister J]

Mister J

That stamp is generally believed to be a date stamp, though you won't always find one, I have a couple where it doesn't make sense, but that was probably the guys doing it messing around.

The handle ends are pressed on I believe, sometimes you find a well used vice where they have walked off a bit. I wouldn't remove them unless absolutely necessary though.

Thanks Dutch. I figured it would be easier to straighten the handle if i removed one of the knobs to free it from the leadscrew but I guess I'll just work around it. The knobs haven't moved at all over the decades so getting one off would probably be a big pain in the neck.

Now I just have to figure out how to remove the jaw inserts. They are in pretty good shape but the screws holding them in are really bad. The slots aren't really slots anymore so I think I'll need to carefully grind a new slot without damaging the inserts. Other than that it should be a fairly straight forward restoration.

 

[G-ManBart]

Thanks Dutch. I figured it would be easier to straighten the handle if i removed one of the knobs to free it from the leadscrew but I guess I'll just work around it. The knobs haven't moved at all over the decades so getting one off would probably be a big pain in the neck.

Now I just have to figure out how to remove the jaw inserts. They are in pretty good shape but the screws holding them in are really bad. The slots aren't really slots anymore so I think I'll need to carefully grind a new slot without damaging the inserts. Other than that it should be a fairly straight forward restoration.

I can't count how many jaw screws I've removed using a Speed Out...these things are awesome!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IRL3WP4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The few times they haven't been quite enough, I've simply carefully drilled the screws out. You really only have to drill through the head of the screw, which is easy. Once you've drilled the two screw heads off, the jaws will come off, and you'll have access to the stub of the screw still in the jaw support. A little bit of heat and a vise grip and you'll be able to turn the rest of the screw out easily. In fact, most of the time they'll turn without heat, but don't don't really crank on it since you don't want to break it off...it either moves pretty easily with the vise grip on it, or you go to heat.

 

[Outlawmws]

Trying to get this thing apart... how the heck does the retaining ring around the screw come loose from the moving jaw? I assume it's like a gland nut on a hydraulic cylinder and just unthreads, but if so it's either left thread or it's stuck dang tight.

Everything else so far on it has come apart pretty easily.

Additional pic for reference:

Jawn, I'm assuming that is a Reed or a copy of the Reed design. There should be a set screw from the side holding the nut as well. once out the nut is actually in two pieces. They cast it, thread it, break it in half and it stil works as the threads it goes into keeps it together...

Tt may also have rust, so penetrating oils adn heat...

 

[Outlawmws]

Better IMO to work around the main screw and just straighten it in a press...

For the screws, once you have the slots cleaned enough. use a close fitting bit and close the jaws on it engaged to apply pressure. maybe some lead or hardwood to cushion it and give it some "give" then turn it with a wrench.

Thanks Dutch. I figured it would be easier to straighten the handle if i removed one of the knobs to free it from the leadscrew but I guess I'll just work around it. The knobs haven't moved at all over the decades so getting one off would probably be a big pain in the neck.

Now I just have to figure out how to remove the jaw inserts. They are in pretty good shape but the screws holding them in are really bad. The slots aren't really slots anymore so I think I'll need to carefully grind a new slot without damaging the inserts. Other than that it should be a fairly straight forward restoration.

 

[Jawn]

There seems to be fair amount of rust around that area and perhaps the rust between retaining ring and dynamic jaw has fused the two. Have you tired the usual tricks (soaking in Kroil, heating, knocking on the ring etc)?

I don't have Kroil, but Liquid Wrench has done pretty fair for me in the past... I have put a tight fitting pin in the hole and tried using a hammer and punch to rotate the ring, but I can't do much of that without deforming the hole and making it even harder to get loose. I'll try heat next, I guess.

Jawn, I'm assuming that is a Reed or a copy of the Reed design. There should be a set screw from the side holding the nut as well. once out the nut is actually in two pieces. They cast it, thread it, break it in half and it stil works as the threads it goes into keeps it together...

Tt may also have rust, so penetrating oils adn heat...

It's a Wilton... but I didn't think to look closely for some kind of pin or something from the side. Will look for that.

 

[Mister J]

I can't count how many jaw screws I've removed using a Speed Out...these things are awesome!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IRL3WP4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The few times they haven't been quite enough, I've simply carefully drilled the screws out. You really only have to drill through the head of the screw, which is easy. Once you've drilled the two screw heads off, the jaws will come off, and you'll have access to the stub of the screw still in the jaw support. A little bit of heat and a vise grip and you'll be able to turn the rest of the screw out easily. In fact, most of the time they'll turn without heat, but don't don't really crank on it since you don't want to break it off...it either moves pretty easily with the vise grip on it, or you go to heat.

The speed out looks like it would work well and would definitely come in handy. For $10 you can't go wrong, will order one. I had thought about drilling the heads off but was worried about wrecking the inserts, but now that you mention it I realize a Chinese HSS drill bit probably won't even scratch the hardened steel inserts.

Last fall I had to replace the master cylinder on an old car and getting the bleeder valves out to bleed the brakes was quite an ordeal. One stubborn valve took a half hour of blowtorch, WD-40, and messing around before I got it out. Once the inserts are out of the way these things should be no problem.

edit:

For the screws, once you have the slots cleaned enough. use a close fitting bit and close the jaws on it engaged to apply pressure. maybe some lead or hardwood to cushion it and give it some "give" then turn it with a wrench.

One of the screw heads is half broken off and the others are all kind of deformed. I'll clean up the slots the best I can on the three deformed ones and give your method a try first before drilling.

 

[Mark in Indiana]

All,

I had a customer ask me to be on the look out for a vintage, combo vise (pipe & straight jaws), that would be in the 4" - 6" size. He also wanted it restored.
I advised him not to go the combo route, but get a normal bench vise and a separate arbor type pipe vise. Reason is that I've had pipes break loose in a combo vise while threading. Otherwise, they do fine with holding round stock. I also advised him that I had a Columbian 604 bench vise and a McGraw-Yarbrough 402 pipe vise, on a shelf and ready for restoration. We agreed on a price & lead time. He will soon receive 2 vises.

Here are the before & after pictures of this restoration:

 

[dutchgray]

Thanks Dutch. I figured it would be easier to straighten the handle if i removed one of the knobs to free it from the leadscrew but I guess I'll just work around it. The knobs haven't moved at all over the decades so getting one off would probably be a big pain in the neck.

Now I just have to figure out how to remove the jaw inserts. They are in pretty good shape but the screws holding them in are really bad. The slots aren't really slots anymore so I think I'll need to carefully grind a new slot without damaging the inserts. Other than that it should be a fairly straight forward restoration.

Save the screws if possible, they will probably be Whitworth and have a really steep countersink angle, if you need to replace them making your own out of a hex head set screw is the way to go.

 

[Mister J]

Save the screws if possible, they will probably be Whitworth and have a really steep countersink angle, if you need to replace them making your own out of a hex head set screw is the way to go.

Ya, that's what I was afraid of. I was hoping that they wouldn't be some weird, rare type of screw. Unfortunately it looks like they're too far gone for saving. Oh well, I'll figure it out. I'm in no big rush to get her on the bench (to be honest it's probably too big for my bench, the No3 is perfect), so I'll just take it apart, get the inserts off, clean, strip, paint, then stick it in a big box in the corner and let the paint cure fully while I figure out the jaw thing.

We have a place here, Ottawa Fastener Supply Ltd, who claim to have "a massive product selection that is unrivaled by any other hardware stores in Ottawa. In fact, we doubt you would find an independent retailer across our whole country with a larger selection". Maybe they have some.

 

[trijeff]

All,

I had a customer ask me to be on the look out for a vintage, combo vise (pipe & straight jaws), that would be in the 4" - 6" size. He also wanted it restored.
I advised him not to go the combo route, but get a normal bench vise and a separate arbor type pipe vise. Reason is that I've had pipes break loose in a combo vise while threading. Otherwise, they do fine with holding round stock. I also advised him that I had a Columbian 604 bench vise and a McGraw-Yarbrough 402 pipe vise, on a shelf and ready for restoration. We agreed on a price & lead time. He will soon receive 2 vises.

Here are the before & after pictures of this restoration:

Nice, real nice, Mark. Great work, lucky customer.

 

[drivesitfar]

All: I'm on the road and found something that is about the right size. The owner had on pallet on fork lift to help me load and was a little shocked when I asked if he had a bigger one. Its been used and not abused.

Sorry can't load pics from phone. Its a 150 pound 6 inch Columbian and pre WWII.

 

[trijeff]

Nice grab Drives, look forward to pics

 

[G-ManBart]

The Wilton magnet hadn't been turned on for a while, so I fired it up and reeled in an NOS 450S yesterday. It appears completely unused. The slide still had the packing grease on it and there isn't a mark on it anywhere...jaws, slide, jaw supports, anvil etc...not a mark. I flipped it upside down and the swivel base appears to never have moved. One of the swivel locks is seized, so I sprayed a little penetrating fluid in there and let it sit over night...we'll see if it needs more, but even if I have to cut it off it's not a big deal. Other than light surface rust and the seized swivel lock I can't find anything wrong with it.

The kicker is the seller said his company was getting rid of some excess equipment that wasn't being used so they told the employees they could take anything they wanted from the pile for themselves. I've seen this time and again where companies don't want to bother with having an equipment auction, so they just give it away free to the employees. I'm not sure if it's too much trouble from an accounting standpoint, or they're writing it off for tax purposes, or something else, but it happens a lot.

I think the slide was stamped 2004, so it looks like it's been sitting idle for 13 years.

 

[mlisac]

The Wilton magnet hadn't been turned on for a while, so I fired it up and reeled in an NOS 450S yesterday. It appears completely unused. The slide still had the packing grease on it and there isn't a mark on it anywhere...jaws, slide, jaw supports, anvil etc...not a mark. I flipped it upside down and the swivel base appears to never have moved. One of the swivel locks is seized, so I sprayed a little penetrating fluid in there and let it sit over night...we'll see if it needs more, but even if I have to cut it off it's not a big deal. Other than light surface rust and the seized swivel lock I can't find anything wrong with it.

The kicker is the seller said his company was getting rid of some excess equipment that wasn't being used so they told the employees they could take anything they wanted from the pile for themselves. I've seen this time and again where companies don't want to bother with having an equipment auction, so they just give it away free to the employees. I'm not sure if it's too much trouble from an accounting standpoint, or they're writing it off for tax purposes, or something else, but it happens a lot.

I think the slide was stamped 2004, so it looks like it's been sitting idle for 13 years.

That's a nice score.

 

[Joefriday]

Sounds like Drives found a sweet one (looking forward to seeing that) and Gman..I haven't stumbled across any good deals on a Wilton yet.. Not what I consider a good deal anyway but it seems like you have cornered the market on them.

I did pick up another project and still maintained the experts recommended .50/pound rate (well about .55 actually). This one is 41 lbs.

Nothing spectacular but another practice project. Fortunately the jaws are in good condition because I have been working the screws for four days with no luck.. Tried all of the tricks I've read about here and finally said, "forget it, they are staying in".

The paint came off easily. I put some paint remover on it and blew it off with my pressure washer. Came right off.

Any recommendation on paint color? It appears that the original color may have been green..(?). I actually like the oiled bare metal look that I don't need to worry about scratching but I am considering painting it.

Anyone have info on the tip of their tongue (or finger) on the "Simplex" Desmond story. Is Simplex the model or style, a branch of Desmond?

It's a model CP 33.

Best,
Rob

 

[Mister J]

G-ManBart

Is it just the lighting or does the paint on the swivel base look totally different than the rest of the vise?

 

[Joefriday]

The kicker is the seller said his company was getting rid of some excess equipment that wasn't being used so they told the employees they could take anything they wanted from the pile for themselves. I've seen this time and again where companies don't want to bother with having an equipment auction, so they just give it away free to the employees. I'm not sure if it's too much trouble from an accounting standpoint, or they're writing it off for tax purposes, or something else, but it happens a lot.

Here's one for you. A buddy of mine has a buddy who works in one of the local ship yards. The guy was working with a crew stripping/dismantling a ship for scrap and they came across an armory containing 1911's and 1903 rifles. His boss called the ships owner and told him of the find. The guy told them to dispose of the weapons as long as there were no machine guns. The crew divvied up the guns and went about their business.

I don't know if it was an old military ship or a commercial ship that had an armory for protection.

Crazy!

My buddy owns a gun shop and his buddy sold him a few of the 1911's.

I ended up with one of the 1911's but now I'm wondering if there were any vises on the ship..Ha..

 

[Rileysan]

At Drivesitfar's request, I am posting a few pix of the Columbian 6" vise he picked up today.

On a side note, I am in the market for 6" or bigger Columbian vise myself.

Brian






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[G-ManBart]

G-ManBart

Is it just the lighting or does the paint on the swivel base look totally different than the rest of the vise?

It sure does, but some of that is the lighting. The base has a heavier hammered effect to it when you look at it in person, but it's not as dramatic in person as in that photo. Weird, but I'm not too worried either way.

After half an hour of cleaning...it actually wasn't rust on the anvil or sides of the jaws, it was dried preservative. It's going to make a great user for somebody.

 

[VISEs]

I picked up this little beauty! It's a vise display stand for small clamp on vises.


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[VISEs]

Also picked up an old reed 34 today.


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[trijeff]

Very cool, Andrew! But you've been far too quiet lately for this to be your only treasure. Time to give up the other goods

And where the heck is Zoomie?? MIA

 

[va.grouseman]

Trijeff, some of the fellows like to fly below radar for a spell and then surface when the time is right.---Whole lot going on in the summer.---Lots of irons in the fire.---Lots of distractions.---They'll be back.