USA vs. foreign tools: Are we not facing facts?

[dwasifar]

Lately I've been buying a fair amount of new hand tools, both USA and other, and the experiences I've had are making me wonder if the expectation of "Made in USA" being better is just a prejudice.

Here are six examples, three of each:

• Channellock 10-pc "Professional" acetate-handle screwdriver set, made in USA. Two of the ten had the shafts set crooked in the handles, and a third one had a bent shaft.
• Empire 12" "True Blue" combination square, made in USA. Rule sticks and jams randomly when you slide it; lubrication didn't help. Sliding it back and forth a few times scored a line on the rule.
• Tekton sockets and ratchet handles, made in Taiwan: One minor cosmetic chroming defect on a single socket out of dozens. No functional issues.
• Irwin 9-in-1 multi-driver, made in China: Perfect. No issues. Same with its Lenox cousin.
• Channellock adjustable wrench, made in Spain: Perfect. No issues.
• Craftsman acetate-handle screwdrivers, made in USA: Perfect. No issues.

This is not a complete list, and there have been other USA purchases that have been fine, but the general trend is that I'm seeing more problems with the USA-made tools. I know none of this stuff is high-end, but that's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Sure, the USA can make really good expensive tools like, say, a Starrett square. But my experience lately has been that the general-market USA tools aren't competing.

When I go out of my way to buy something USA-made, and it turns out to be a disappointment, it makes me feel like the home team just lost a game. But in that list, two of the three USA purchases were unusably defective, whereas the foreign tools were all perfectly usable and the single trivial defect was cosmetic. The USA Empire square, for example, was pretty in its bright blue package, but the usability was what you'd have expected from Taiwan tools in the 1980s, and I had to root through the ones on display to find one that didn't have a sloppy cut on the end of the ruler. I have an Asia-made Stanley that works better. That ***** to admit, but it's true.

I know this will be an unpopular question, but: have they won? Did they drag us down to competing on their cost level and then beat us there on quality? Because that's how it's starting to look.

 

[jd_1138]

I wouldn't call preferring USA made tools a "prejudice". Buying USA is better for our economy to have jobs here, less taking advantage of third world labor (who work in horrible conditions most of the time), etc.. That exceptional quality Chinese made tool that was cheap may be in good shape, but there is a human cost behind that.

But I do agree that the USA producers had better up their game even on the cheaper and middle cost tools made here. The high end stuff is top notch.

 

[dwasifar]

I wouldn't call preferring USA made tools a "prejudice". Buying USA is better for our economy to have jobs here, less taking advantage of third world labor (who work in horrible conditions most of the time), etc.. That exceptional quality Chinese made tool that was cheap may be in good shape, but there is a human cost behind that.

But I do agree that the USA producers had better up their game even on the cheaper and middle cost tools made here. The high end stuff is top notch.

Oh, I get that. There are good reasons to want to buy American. I'm talking about the belief that USA tools are better; THAT is looking more like a unfounded prejudice every time one disappoints me.

 

[dwasifar]

Quality control is not the same thing as overall tool quality though.

Maybe not, but I'd be surprised if they didn't correlate at least to some degree, wouldn't you?

 

[jeremy v]

I have the most factory quality control issues with USA and China tools. Snap-on for me has been one of the worst quality control offenders, so it's not just a low-mid range brand issue. I have received Wiha and Knipex tools with qc issues as well, so no brand is immune. I have the least issues with Taiwan stuff, and Germany is in the middle with some issues. Quality control is not the same thing as overall tool quality though. A company like Snap-on does use better steel and heat treatment than a lesser brand, and Channellock pliers are more durable and less brittle than almost all China made pliers even though they compete at the same price points. Everything has to give somewhere.

 

[Super Sport]

I imagine good quality control will drive up the lower-level USA tool prices to a point where consumers will no longer consider them. To keep the prices at a level where they are still competitive, they lack that level of QC. American companies can produce a product as good as or better than anyone, but it comes at a price.

As for me and most others, I don't think we generally buy American because of the quality alone. I know that China and Taiwan produce some top-notch tools, but I'd rather support some American jobs and keep the money here.

 

[SK-Mike]

Do you want children making your tools? Not me.

Have no problem buying USA, German, Spain, Japan, Canada, France, Great Britain, etc. But many Asian countries and their child labor and human rights laws are a major turnoff for my money.

 

[dwasifar]

To keep the prices at a level where they are still competitive, they lack that level of QC. American companies can produce a product as good as or better than anyone, but it comes at a price.

I'm not sure it's that simple. I think it's a management and corporate culture issue, not purely one of margins. Look at cars. I know I'm gonna get flak for this, but Japanese cars made in America are better and tighter than American cars made in America, at a competitive price point. The fact that your super-reliable Honda or Acura was made in an American factory, and in many cases designed in an American engineering studio, shows that Americans CAN do it, but mostly we just don't.

As for me and most others, I don't think we generally buy American because of the quality alone. I know that China and Taiwan produce some top-notch tools, but I'd rather support some American jobs and keep the money here.

I want to do that. But when USA factories sell me crooked screwdrivers, squares that jam, and dikes with jaws that don't meet, it's hard to place national interest over the basic utility you need from the tool. Eventually you become like Mr. Chekov insisting everything good was inwented in Russia.

 

[Tonellin]

Do you want children making your tools? Not me.

Have no problem buying USA, German, Spain, Japan, Canada, France, Great Britain, etc. But many Asian countries and their child labor and human rights laws are a major turnoff for my money.

Yet you're okay with them making your phone, computer, clothes, dishes, furniture, shoes, appliances etc.

Gimme a break - this GJ 'holier than thou' purchasing view when it comes to buying tools is such complete bs

 

[ocloc24]

Channellock makes pretty good pliers, but most of their other tools are kinda ****. Not all but still. I wouldn't make want definitive conclusions based on them. They're a lower tier of US made tools.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[dwasifar]

Do you want children making your tools? Not me.

Have no problem buying USA, German, Spain, Japan, Canada, France, Great Britain, etc. But many Asian countries and their child labor and human rights laws are a major turnoff for my money.

I have no argument with this. The question is not whether it's good to do business with China. This is purely about whether US quality is deficient.

 

[Wamsutta]

It depends on which marketing segment you're shopping in. For a set of screwdrivers and a combination square, Channellock and Empire would not be on my radar.

 

[sberry]

That exceptional quality Chinese made tool that was cheap may be in good shape, but there is a human cost behind that

So its better they starve? In reality the upswing in China mfg has lifted more people out of poverty than at any time in world history.

This is purely about whether US quality is deficient.

This is not possible here, belief trumps reality most of the time. If it was a regular occurance then I would have broken china wrenches and busted knuckles from it on a regular basis considering the 1000's of times I have used 100's of wrenches doing it, never had it happen.

 

[McFarmer]

Yet you're okay with them making your phone, computer, clothes, dishes, furniture, shoes, appliances etc.

Gimme a break - this GJ 'holier than thou' purchasing view when it comes to buying tools is such complete bs

I'm not OK with it.

Doesn't mean I throw in the towel.

 

[WhataTool]

Do you want children making your tools? Not me.

Have no problem buying USA, German, Spain, Japan, Canada, France, Great Britain, etc. But many Asian countries and their child labor and human rights laws are a major turnoff for my money.

The 1990's called, they want their understanding of foreign labor markets back.

I'm often overseas for work, in Taiwan they get over double the vacation days I'm afforded. And with the recent labor laws passed in the last year, almost no one works over-time and if they do, they get paid with steep multipliers.

Although most people have chosen not to, and embrace more of a modern work/home life mix to move away from the lifestyle their parents had of working all day every day. As far as child labor, you have to go to some very third world countries in rural areas of like india and Vietnam to find that - and then it's more textiles. Those dirt floor lean-to's aren't churning out your chrome forged and broached sockets.

 

[dwasifar]

It depends on which marketing segment you're shopping in. For a set of screwdrivers and a combination square, Channellock and Empire would not be on my radar.

Well, as I said, general market. Mass market.

I'm not saying the USA can't make good, expensive tools that rival or beat any other country's good, expensive tools. But for things that are priced to sell from a hang tag instead of in a nice padded case, I don't think we can do it anymore. I really don't want to test this hypothesis, but I'll bet if I went to Harbor Freight and bought one of their Chinese squares, it'd work smoother than that Empire.

It's nice that the USA can still make high-end, expensive precision products, don't get me wrong. But for every $150 Starrett sold, there are probably a few hundred $9 combination squares being sold by Lowe's and Home Depot and Amazon, and a lot of those are going to contractors rather than homeowners. That's a much bigger market, and for reasons which have already been stated here by others, I'd like to see USA tools take some of that market back. If we could do it, don't you think we would have by now?

 

[gdocktor3]

Those are bottom of the barrel "Made in USA" tools.

 

[dwasifar]

Those are bottom of the barrel "Made in USA" tools.

Why should our barrel have a lower bottom than China's?

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

^ this is true.
And...
USA vs foreign I'd say OP is wrong. there are plenty of German and scandanavian produced tools that are every bit as good as their US equivalent
but coming back to Gdoctors post, the bottom of the barrel is lower in a 3rd world country. If you have 2 guys making folding knives, the guy in the US or germany is takin home $15 an hour so if the knives sell for $5, he makes 4 an hour, and 25% are defective, you lose money on materials energy, etc. but the guy making them in China gets $7/day, and even though 24% get returned, you still make money.

 

[SantaAna12]

"belief trumps reality"

Hard but true Mr. Berry.

 

[dwasifar]

USA vs foreign I'd say OP is wrong. there are plenty of German and scandanavian produced tools that are every bit as good as their US equivalent.

I'm not sure how that makes me wrong.

 

[deberly12]

Ok.... everyone saying these are poor USA tools....WE GET IT YOU LIKE EXPENSIVE TOOLS!!!! Not very many years ago there was NO major asian tools that was as good as any major USA tools.

I would love to get all USA tools but if I go to harbor freight I get better quality tools than I do from some USA made for 1/4 the price. I simply cannot afford to buy the expensive tools for 20 or more times the money.

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[dwasifar]

Ok.... everyone saying these are poor USA tools....WE GET IT YOU LIKE EXPENSIVE TOOLS!!!! Not very many years ago there was NO major asian tools that was as good as any major USA tools.

I would love to get all USA tools but if I go to harbor freight I get better quality tools than I do from some USA made for 1/4 the price. I simply cannot afford to buy the expensive tools for 20 or more times the money.

This guy is the market I mean.

 

[Gmonkee]

US made is furrin' import where I am.

But I look for a quality level before a location really.


Too broad a brush and too thin the paint here. Quality has no set locations but there are other factors in play also.
Looks, ergonomic feel, fit and finish plus experiences will influence your choices.

I like Euro feel and a good fit. I will sacrifice finish and brand preferences to get them.

 

[gdocktor3]

Why should our barrel have a lower bottom than China's?

To be competitive our products would be inferior to those made in china due to the higher cost to produce.

 

[sberry]

I was working in a job shop and we went shopping for some thermometers. Over the years the ones they always used had the same name from the same vendor but the coo changed. They were 14 a piece and we wanted 100. We got on the phone and found them USA, union made for 11. (This was way before internet) but it was simply a matter of no one ever looked.
I bought cheap wrenches, they used to say,,, forged USA. They were sold in the farm stores, pretty much looked like a lot of wrenches but simply didn't have a brand.
I bought a Fedders air con not all that long ago, USA union made, priced the same as a plastic import.

 

[Kev442]

There is no doubt Taiwan's initial QC exceeds many US manufacturers. If I was producing budget tools that were getting shipped halfway around the world, I would put more into QC too, it makes financial sense.
I also believe that Taiwan has a fierce desire to show QC better than mainland China, a way of resisting the One China stuff.
Foxconn is looking to return the favor of being a major trading partner by building 10 billion dollars worth of manufacturing plants in the US starting next year.

 

[Wamsutta]

Well, as I said, general market. Mass market.

I'm not saying the USA can't make good, expensive tools that rival or beat any other country's good, expensive tools. But for things that are priced to sell from a hang tag instead of in a nice padded case, I don't think we can do it anymore. I really don't want to test this hypothesis, but I'll bet if I went to Harbor Freight and bought one of their Chinese squares, it'd work smoother than that Empire.

It's nice that the USA can still make high-end, expensive precision products, don't get me wrong. But for every $150 Starrett sold, there are probably a few hundred $9 combination squares being sold by Lowe's and Home Depot and Amazon, and a lot of those are going to contractors rather than homeowners. That's a much bigger market, and for reasons which have already been stated here by others, I'd like to see USA tools take some of that market back. If we could do it, don't you think we would have by now?

If you're saying that USA can't compete in the cheap tools marketing segment while still providing a quality product while still being able to feed their employees, that's fine by me; I don't want the USA in that marketing segment anyway. I'll pay the money for quality tools when and if I get the money. And being that I don't waste money on beer and cigarettes, I have more money for things that count like SNAP-ON.

 

[PeterT]

I buy American and I've never had a crooked or bent handle or shaft,, maybe you just got a bad set. Besides, I don't believe in supporting communist China and their filthy rich cats abusing children,, they'd skimp quality to save a penny on 10,000 units

 

[bushmechanic]

The 1990's called, they want their understanding of foreign labor markets back.

I'm often overseas for work, in Taiwan they get over double the vacation days I'm afforded. And with the recent labor laws passed in the last year, almost no one works over-time and if they do, they get paid with steep multipliers.

Although most people have chosen not to, and embrace more of a modern work/home life mix to move away from the lifestyle their parents had of working all day every day. As far as child labor, you have to go to some very third world countries in rural areas of like india and Vietnam to find that - and then it's more textiles. Those dirt floor lean-to's aren't churning out your chrome forged and broached sockets.

A lot of people seem to think the Republic of China and People's Republic of China are the same thing.

They hate each other.

VERY good products come out of Taiwan, and they are pretty darn close friends.

 

[XabuJr]

I buy American and I've never had a crooked or bent handle or shaft,, maybe you just got a bad set. Besides, I don't believe in supporting communist China and their filthy rich cats abusing children,, they'd skimp quality to save a penny on 10,000 units

... he said, typing on equipment from that country, sending data over equipment from that country, before leaning over to answer the phone built in that country...

 

[PeterT]

... he said, typing on equipment from that country, sending data over equipment from that country, before leaning over to answer the phone built in that country...

Is that the only response you people have, boy your computer is made in china,, and your phone,,, duuuhhhhh

If we supported American mfg 30 years ago that wouldn't be the case. Tool companies are still in this country, if everyone was as selfish and carefree about American mfg as YOU tools too would only be made in China.

I buy what I want and you or nobody else is gonna stop me, by your little computer and phone made in china comments.

 

[SK-Mike]

Is that the only response you people have, boy your computer is made in china,, and your phone,,, duuuhhhhh

If we supported American mfg 30 years ago that would be the case. Tool companies are still in this country, if everyone was as selfish and carefree about American mfg tools too would only be made in China.

I buy what I want and you or nobody else is gonna stop me, by your little computer and phone made in china comments.

Agree with this. Electronics shopping we don't have many USA made choices, but when it comes to tools we do. I prefer to spend my tool budget on USA brands whenever possible, even at double or triple the cost of China Garbage, that's just me, and to each their own.

 

[kythri]

I buy what I want and you or nobody else is gonna stop me, by your little computer and phone made in china comments.

Did I miss the part where someone was trying to stop anyone from buying US-made merchandise?

 

[Jamie in wv]

Funny, I work for Toyota in a power train plant... we manufacture 4 bangers and 6 cylinder engines and auto transmissions, 14 years ago our plant was run by 90% Toyota employees and only 10% contractors. Morale was high and quality was beyond good. Fast forward to today 30% full time employees (with benefits), 70% contractors and they even have two stages of contractors (lower stage most can't pass drug test).
This is so they can make a engine or transmission for less money, making it harder and harder to catch problems and issues, and also as most companies want to make more and more products in a 8 hour shift.
that makes it tough for you to catch all problems, when someone retires now the position that was held by a 20 year employee is now a job held by a 20 year old.

 

[bob15]

Yet you're okay with them making your phone, computer, clothes, dishes, furniture, shoes, appliances etc.

Gimme a break - this GJ 'holier than thou' purchasing view when it comes to buying tools is such complete bs

Is it really BS? Or are you just too lazy to look for or find USA made item? There is a reason 95% of what I buy is USA made, I look at where it is made. Of what you listed, computers and one house phone are the only things i own that aren't made in the USA. I do still have a Quasar TV that is US made though.

Want to find USA made products? Do a google search for something with the following next to the item you are looking for: "made in usa". This will help you find the USA-made items you seem to have a problem finding.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Foxconn is looking to return the favor of being a major trading partner by building 10 billion dollars worth of manufacturing plants in the US starting next year.

That is the key, American companies have not been investing in domestic production and the factories that are still running here have outdated lines and tooling. When foreign companies are investing more in American factories than American companies are, something is severely broken.

 

[bushmechanic]

Is that the only response you people have, boy your computer is made in china,, and your phone,,, duuuhhhhh

If we supported American mfg 30 years ago that wouldn't be the case. Tool companies are still in this country, if everyone was as selfish and carefree about American mfg as YOU tools too would only be made in China.

I buy what I want and you or nobody else is gonna stop me, by your little computer and phone made in china comments.

You've no relevant opinion in the COO debate, then. Why are you here?

Pull my computers (including peripherals) apart and you will find these nations, roughly in this order; PCB components included:

1: Taiwan
2: Japan
3: Germany
4: Malaysia
5: United States
6: Other
7: China (isolated hardware here and there)

Actually, the same goes for most electronics in my home, unless you factor in the Panasonic units, which are ordered like this:

1: Japan
2: United States

My closet:

1: United States
2: Canada (yeah... I can't stand Canada, but Tilley makes good stuff)

Hell, even my cars avoid China like the plague. My generator is 100% Japan, actually, and even the batteries I use come from either the United States, Germany, or Japan exclusively. My lead acid batteries are no exception; being manufactured in either the United States (all my cars) or Japan (my Kubota mower and the Kawasaki Mule I sold a little while back).

My "Wintel" computers from earlier eras are all made in the USA down to the component level, so I didn't factor those in. Wouldn't really be fair.

I don't have a problem with global sourcing, so long as the parts and products come from a very specific list of nations; and avoid those on another list.

 

[Tallpilot]

Funny, I work for Toyota in a power train plant... we manufacture 4 bangers and 6 cylinder engines and auto transmissions, 14 years ago our plant was run by 90% Toyota employees and only 10% contractors. Morale was high and quality was beyond good. Fast forward to today 30% full time employees (with benefits), 70% contractors and they even have two stages of contractors (lower stage most can't pass drug test).
This is so they can make a engine or transmission for less money, making it harder and harder to catch problems and issues, and also as most companies want to make more and more products in a 8 hour shift.
that makes it tough for you to catch all problems, when someone retires now the position that was held by a 20 year employee is now a job held by a 20 year old.

That ***** to hear that. I just bought a Tacoma. I guess it doesn't surprise me though. That seems to be the status quo everywhere.

 

[dwasifar]

A lot of people are saying, "well, you're buying low-end US products." But that misses the point. Products at those price points are the bulk of the market, and what I was getting at was, at that level, Taiwan and China now make better products than we do.

Gdocktor gets it:

To be competitive our products would be inferior to those made in china due to the higher cost to produce.

That's a standard line from corporate America, but I don't completely buy it. US workers may be more expensive but we are still the most productive workers in the world. Not denying that there's some cost savings to offshoring, but productivity should narrow the gap.

Given that these decisions are made by bean counters and not product people, I'd suspect that at least part of the draw of globalization for them is having their money in places where it's not watched as closely.

Several people seem pretty angry about the idea of doing business with China, and maybe angry at me for suggesting that the competing US products are inferior. If we had better educated consumers, maybe there'd be a market position for US products one step in quality above the current mass market level. You want the cheapest acceptable tool, you can still buy China; you want a better and slightly more expensive tool, you buy mass market US. But we don't have those consumers. What we have is a race to the bottom, because US consumers have repeatedly proven they're really only interested in price. And as Gdocktor illustrates, US manufacturing can't (or doesn't want to) compete there. It profits the bean counters better just to close our factories and continue that race to the bottom with offshoring.