Electrical installations the Aussie way.

[oldironfarmer]

I remember going to one office where they had 30 keypunches in the room. When I asked one of the operators which machine was down, she pointed to it. Looked like an easy job because it wasn't plugged in. I plugged it in, turned it on and the whole room went silent. There was only enough power to run 29 keypunches on the single circuit. The owner of the company (wearing coveralls) came over to tell me to ask before I did anything in his shop. He was a wealthy but beyond frugal man. He bought used punched cards so he could run them through a high-speed sorter to find enough un-punched sections of the cards to use them for his client's work that only needed 20 or 30 columns.

My kind of guy!

Using empty sections of used cards

Maybe we're related.

 

[Gmonkee]

You would be terrified by what passes in Mexico as home wiring. I have been in process of redoing old messes in a not too old home recently.

Start with two 30 amp fuses in a switch box for the entire house. Grounds optional.

I see many ideas used there made it here too. Plastic on the wall boxes and the set screw wire clamp type. It works well.

I am in process of americanizing the system on my home with Square D breakers in a distributor panel. Halfway there now.

 

[03.]

1/2 cup, well done on creating this thread it makes very interesting reading I am sure all those Who read this from around the world will find it of great interest.

I always take a bit of time to have a look at the electricals wherever I travel in the world, I guess most tradies tend to do this when travelling.
Some things are interesting, others are just plain frightening by our standards

Again well done, just wanted to let you know your hard work is appreciated.

 

[1/2 Cup]

My kind of guy!

Using empty sections of used cards

Maybe we're related.

Andy, "related " too much data.

You would be terrified by what passes in Mexico as home wiring. I have been in process of redoing old messes in a not too old home recently.

Start with two 30 amp fuses in a switch box for the entire house. Grounds optional.

I see many ideas used there made it here too. Plastic on the wall boxes and the set screw wire clamp type. It works well.

I am in process of americanizing the system on my home with Square D breakers in a distributor panel. Halfway there now.

Gmonkee, I can only imagine

If you get 5 are you able to post a picture or two here I think every one would be very interested..

1/2 cup, well done on creating this thread it makes very interesting reading I am sure all those Who read this from around the world will find it of great interest.

I always take a bit of time to have a look at the electricals wherever I travel in the world, I guess most tradies tend to do this when travelling.
Some things are interesting, others are just plain frightening by our standards

Again well done, just wanted to let you know your hard work is appreciated.

03, thank you...

By all means don't hesitate to add your two bobs worth as well ( not that you haven't already done so).

Thank you one and all yet again your posts are much appreciated..

 

[dutchgray]

Interesting that the Australian wire colours are almost the same as the British ones before we had to change to match Europe, the difference is we had yellow not white for one of the 3 phase lives.
We only use ring mains for Sockets, I have read it was brought in to save copper after WW2 but don't know if that is correct or not.
We have RCDs in domestic distribution boards and have done since at least the 90's im not old enough to be aware of before then, we have RCD sockets as well if you want them.
We do have the best plugs though.

 

[03.]

Interesting that the Australian wire colours are almost the same as the British ones before we had to change to match Europe, the difference is we had yellow not white for one of the 3 phase lives.

We used to use yellow for our B phase as well but it was changed to white when we started with the green/yellow earth wire. I can't remember when we changed it but my guess is the mid 1980's not sure?

1/2 cup might remember when. Help ...... mate?

 

[heller44]

The one thing that fascinates me about some of the installs I see here is the amount of steel conduit used in a domestic setting. Almost exclusively here it is all pvc.

 

[Hawk]

Norcal, when I get 5 I will do a search for War and Currents it sounds like a great read..

We have two phases 480 vac on typically rural networks and go hand in hand with Single Wire Earth Return systems.

https://www.powercor.com.au/about-us/electricity-networks/

Thank you, have a great day..

I do not know if you Kindle or what the price down under would be, but:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BNX6NCC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[alfredeneuman]

You would be terrified by what passes in Mexico as home wiring.

I've done some work on a "maquiladora" (US owned company that produces goods in Mexico for sale in the US), and you aren't kidding.
What passes for "concrete" in Tijuana is mostly sand and aggregate. You can drill a hole in it with nothing more than a screwdriver.
Their method of "in slab" wiring goes like this:
Take a garden hose, smear it with grease, embed it, and pour the slab.
After the concrete hardens, pull the garden hose out (for use on subsequent pours).

It leaves a pre-lubed hollow space in the "concrete" for wiring. Very creative, but very stupid

 

[1/2 Cup]

dutchgray[/B];6588230]Interesting that the Australian wire colours are almost the same as the British ones before we had to change to match Europe, the difference is we had yellow not white for one of the 3 phase lives.
We only use ring mains for Sockets, I have read it was brought in to save copper after WW2 but don't know if that is correct or not.
We have RCDs in domestic distribution boards and have done since at least the 90's im not old enough to be aware of before then, we have RCD sockets as well if you want them.
We do have the best plugs though.

dutchgray, just a quick question do you guys still have fused plug tops??

With the ring mains you have I personally can't see much benefit in doing things like that as it would have issues this back feeds if you are fault finding.

Again with the ring mains are they RCD protected at both ends of the circuit or am I of track on that??

Our plugs aren't to bad either...

We used to use yellow for our B phase as well but it was changed to white when we started with the green/yellow earth wire. I can't remember when we changed it but my guess is the mid 1980's not sure?

1/2 cup might remember when. Help ...... mate?

03, I am guessing you would be spot on with the Mid Eighties. I still see installations from that era with Yellow busbars and cabling.

The one thing that fascinates me about some of the installs I see here is the amount of steel conduit used in a domestic setting. Almost exclusively here it is all pvc.

heller44, first up hello and welcome to the GJ

Me too the whole installation methodology amazes me as to how different electricals are around the world...

I do not know if you Kindle or what the price down under would be, but:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BNX6NCC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Hawk, it looks like a great read and I must get a copy..

Thank you..

I've done some work on a "maquiladora" (US owned company that produces goods in Mexico for sale in the US), and you aren't kidding.
What passes for "concrete" in Tijuana is mostly sand and aggregate. You can drill a hole in it with nothing more than a screwdriver.
Their method of "in slab" wiring goes like this:
Take a garden hose, smear it with grease, embed it, and pour the slab.
After the concrete hardens, pull the garden hose out (for use on subsequent pours).

It leaves a pre-lubed hollow space in the "concrete" for wiring. Very creative, but very stupid

alfredeneuman, far out that is unbelievable

Although I can relate to that a my youngest is quit often in India with work and he tells of similar stories.

Thanks guys for your contributions, well done..

 

[rockettgpw]

1/2 Cup, thanks for the thread.
30 year sparky but quite rusty on the rules as I've been out of the trade and owner building for too long. It will be good for me to read along to refresh a bit.
I've tried to suss out the Yankee systems and their multiple voltage installs which seem way more complicated than our 1ph 240/ 3ph 415, can you square me on this please?

 

[Gmonkee]

Lol!

I had to go zero to full speed in installing the entire wire harness stripped out of the old shop into a new building.

We had single, two and three phase 240 machines to install and it had to work within a day or two.

Took it all down in managable sections and the boss had the meter boxes and big shutdown switch moved for me.

Reconnect the wires as marked when cut and fix the tubing to the wall as it was unrolled. Then the 3 phase outlet for the welder, split two phase off for the compressors and hardwire those in. Single phase in two circuits and build a line of outlets along the wall with conduit. The other to a bank of switches for six overhead lights.

And it worked fine the first time I flipped the breakers.
For lack of knowledge it was just cut, mark and go re-install the way it was. My boss had run out of money and could not pay an expert. It has been in service since 2008 without issue.
It scared me silly going in blind but it worked. After that I had a very basic understanding.

Mexico has strange ways of doing things. Boss says YOU are the expert its time to figure a way and get it done.

Not quite as easy as watching him pay the pro to do it.

 

[MikeF2316]

Lots of fascinating reading here. It would be interesting to see what would be a preferred design today. I'd bet that voltage would be higher (cuts down on copper) and frequency would be higher (transformers can be smaller and cheaper) although not too much higher as (transmission losses are higher) as well.

One thing not mentioned is the old 25 Hz used in Ontario (and elsewhere). This was decided by turbines selected for Niagara Falls. Most of the remaining 25 Hz stuff was converted in the late 1940s / early 1950s, the power company here bought new motors for things with replaceable motors, and new refrigerators for consumers. It must have been fun times.

 

[1/2 Cup]

1/2 Cup, thanks for the thread.
30 year sparky but quite rusty on the rules as I've been out of the trade and owner building for too long. It will be good for me to read along to refresh a bit.
I've tried to suss out the Yankee systems and their multiple voltage installs which seem way more complicated than our 1ph 240/ 3ph 415, can you square me on this please?

Rockettgpw, the pleasure is all mine….

The rules are about to change again with the latest edition of AS/NZS 3000 due out later this year and from what I have read of the draft summary there is a raft of changes to look forward to and in particular Residual Current Devices/ Safety Switches/GFCIs.

I am still getting my head around the way things are done in the States but from what I have gleaned thus far the comparison goes like this, chime in anyone and please correct me if I am wrong.

Australia The United States.

50 Hz 60 Hz

240 Vac 120 Vac

480 Vac 240 Vac across two phases ( two wire plus ground ) ??

415, now 400 Vac 480 Vac across three phases??


A couple of points to note:

In using 240 volts here as against 110 volts there are a number of differences:

• The current for a given load is less.
• Smaller cables are required for that given load.
• Voltage drop is less

Whereas a 110v system has some distinct advantages.

• Safer
• The cable insulation requirements are less.

I trust this helps………………

 

[Norcal]

The US & Canada does not use 110V, there are ignorant people who refer to 120 volts as "110", but the only place in the world that does use 110 volts is the UK, where it's mandated on construction sites, & each leg is 55 volts.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Lol!

I had to go zero to full speed in installing the entire wire harness stripped out of the old shop into a new building.

We had single, two and three phase 240 machines to install and it had to work within a day or two.

Took it all down in managable sections and the boss had the meter boxes and big shutdown switch moved for me.

Reconnect the wires as marked when cut and fix the tubing to the wall as it was unrolled. Then the 3 phase outlet for the welder, split two phase off for the compressors and hardwire those in. Single phase in two circuits and build a line of outlets along the wall with conduit. The other to a bank of switches for six overhead lights.

And it worked fine the first time I flipped the breakers.
For lack of knowledge it was just cut, mark and go re-install the way it was. My boss had run out of money and could not pay an expert. It has been in service since 2008 without issue.
It scared me silly going in blind but it worked. After that I had a very basic understanding.

Mexico has strange ways of doing things. Boss says YOU are the expert its time to figure a way and get it done.

Not quite as easy as watching him pay the pro to do it.

Gmonkee, you have done well.

Lots of fascinating reading here. It would be interesting to see what would be a preferred design today. I'd bet that voltage would be higher (cuts down on copper) and frequency would be higher (transformers can be smaller and cheaper) although not too much higher as (transmission losses are higher) as well.

One thing not mentioned is the old 25 Hz used in Ontario (and elsewhere). This was decided by turbines selected for Niagara Falls. Most of the remaining 25 Hz stuff was converted in the late 1940s / early 1950s, the power company here bought new motors for things with replaceable motors, and new refrigerators for consumers. It must have been fun times.

MikeF2316, I never knew that 25 Hz was used in Ontario years ago.

You learn something every day...

Gentlemen, thank you for your contribution it really helps members in this neck of the woods have a far greater understanding of your system and conversely I am trusting that it gives you an insight to ours...

 

[Gmonkee]

If I recall the US is 120 or 127 VAC 60HZ single phase now. Mexico in my area is 110 VAC at 60 HZ. The stuff works on either voltage but the items marketed in Mexico tend yo be more tolerant of the changes in voltage. I have seen as low as 90 and as much as 135 VAC when checking with a DMM. Our substation tends to do a brownout every night about tenish when they switch feed circuits.

Industrial voltages will vary across the map but if it's 3 phase and a difference of 408 to 480 they just hook it up and call it good. The shop has a WW2 vintage massive drill press from Britain hooked into the 240 3 phase and the tag specified some other voltage. It works fineand has for decades like that.
But I am sure it isn't right.

 

[1/2 Cup]

The US & Canada does not use 110V, there are ignorant people who refer to 120 volts as "110", but the only place in the world that does use 110 volts is the UK, where it's mandated on construction sites, & each leg is 55 volts.

Norcal, thank you for the correction...

 

[1/2 Cup]

If I recall the US is 120 or 127 VAC 60HZ single phase now. Mexico in my area is 110 VAC at 60 HZ. The stuff works on either voltage but the items marketed in Mexico tend yo be more tolerant of the changes in voltage. I have seen as low as 90 and as much as 135 VAC when checking with a DMM. Our substation tends to do a brownout every night about tenish when they switch feed circuits.

Industrial voltages will vary across the map but if it's 3 phase and a difference of 408 to 480 they just hook it up and call it good. The shop has a WW2 vintage massive drill press from Britain hooked into the 240 3 phase and the tag specified some other voltage. It works fineand has for decades like that.
But I am sure it isn't right.

Gmonkee Our voltage tolerances are fairly wide.

http://electricalconnection.com.au/when-voltage-varies/

The maximum voltage drop we are permitted on any installation from the point of supply to the furthest point is 5% so selecting the correct conductor size is a very important part of the equation.

Regards

 

[udderlyoffroad]

Norcal, thank you for the correction...

Just to expand on this. UK and Ireland went through a phase of requiring 110 v equipment on construction sites, this was supplied via large, heavy, yellow centre-tapped-earth transformers, so as has been stated live voltage was only 55v and the connected equipment 'sees' 110v. This requirement is slowly being phased out now RCDs (GFCIs) and even RCBOs (RCD and circuit breakers combined) are standard equipment. Far better to have a brief jolt of 230v than a sustained 55v...probably.

All of this means that, due to supply and equipment voltage tolerances, it is possible to run equipment designed for use on US 120v using these transformers, usually with no ill effect. Unless, of course, the equipment has an induction motor in it, in which case it will run slower due to the supply frequency being 50 Hz not 60 Hz.

 

[American Locomotive]

Norcal, thank you for the correction...

Keep in mind the U.S. has an extremely long electrical "legacy". Pre-war voltages the US was 110V. Then at some point it it became 115v nominal. That lasted until the 70s or so when the powers at be decided the voltage should be 120v. That also applies to our high-voltage single phase which went 220, 230 and then eventually 240. Same thing with 3 phase service, which went 440, 460 and 480.

Many people I interface with on a daily basis still call our power "110/220", because that's what their father called it, because that's what his father called it. It's pretty harsh to call people who use "110" as "ignorant". I don't call my relatives down in Tennessee ignorant for calling every soft drink a "Coke"

 

[Toothaker]

The single phase voltage at my house is fairly stable at around 247-248V. It may be a while before our infrastructure gets it closer to 230..

Could someone expand on this? Why is the voltage headed towards 230 from 247-248V?

Around here (in the USA) our voltages have been headed the other way for years. As noted above, 110VAC, then 115, 117, and now 120VAC, with tolerances of course.

 

[MikeF2316]

Keep in mind the U.S. has an extremely long electrical "legacy". Pre-war voltages the US was 110V. Then at some point it it became 115v nominal. That lasted until the 70s or so when the powers at be decided the voltage should be 120v. That also applies to our high-voltage single phase which went 220, 230 and then eventually 240. Same thing with 3 phase service, which went 440, 460 and 480.

Many people I interface with on a daily basis still call our power "110/220", because that's what their father called it, because that's what his father called it. It's pretty harsh to call people who use "110" as "ignorant". I don't call my relatives down in Tennessee ignorant for calling every soft drink a "Coke"

Could someone expand on this? Why is the voltage headed towards 230 from 247-248V?

Around here (in the USA) our voltages have been headed the other way for years. As noted above, 110VAC, then 115, 117, and now 120VAC, with tolerances of course.

Voltage can vary very quickly depending on demand, especially on high resistance supplies (read long lines as in a rural setting). So generally rural power is on the high end voltage wise, and has higher variances as loads are switched on and off. In the city, demand is steadier, so the voltage is steadier too. That's why you often used to see incandescent bulbs with a 125 volt rating, and something like "country power" on the package.

And I agree, even if it's incorrect, when someone says 110-120 or 220-230-240 I do know what they're referring to.

And my father always said nominal was 117 volts, back when I was first learning about batteries and household power. I hadn't seen it anywhere else until today!

 

[Gmonkee]

Ok, sideways question. I have been doing lights and outlets in our home, first install in not so new construction. It was mentioned me doing the labor (and buying all the parts) has saved her a fortune.

How is work estimated wherever you are?

Structured pricing, itemized to the details or just a good guestimate to cover costs and labor?
Or maybe bid out between various providers?

Here its all itemized to the smallest detail in materials and a sort of structured pricing per outlet or light installed. It adds up fast and in the past her contractors took the extra stuff as a bonus. Lol!

 

[1/2 Cup]

Gmonkee Our estimates can be done in many ways it depends who you are dealing with 1. a total cost ( fixed price ) with no real break down 2. Labour, travel and materials. which I prefer..

 

[1/2 Cup]

Part No.3 - Cables I will start with some of our typical domestic and commercial cables..

. All our cables have 600 volt insulation.
. They are all stranded copper conductors.
. Apart from High voltage use we do not use aluminium conductors.
. Note no bare earths/ grounds

View media item 72588
No.1 typically this is how we twist stranded cables ready for termination.

No.2 A 4.0 mm2 rated at around 32 amps, in a domestic installation would be used for a stove.

No.3 A 2.5 mm2, for the most part is used for power point wiring and is rated at 20 amps ( depending on the installation methodology.)

No.4 1.5 mm2 rated at 15 amps mostly used for lighting.

No.5 1.5 mm2 single live/hot/active.

No.6 1.5 mm2 twin active. the red being hot and the white used as a switch wire.

Thank you for your visit..........

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Keep in mind the U.S. has an extremely long electrical "legacy". Pre-war voltages the US was 110V. Then at some point it it became 115v nominal. That lasted until the 70s or so when the powers at be decided the voltage should be 120v. That also applies to our high-voltage single phase which went 220, 230 and then eventually 240. Same thing with 3 phase service, which went 440, 460 and 480.

Many people I interface with on a daily basis still call our power "110/220", because that's what their father called it, because that's what his father called it. It's pretty harsh to call people who use "110" as "ignorant". I don't call my relatives down in Tennessee ignorant for calling every soft drink a "Coke"

 

[C_F]

Thanks for the very interesting thread, 1/2Cup.
I'm not an electrician, but I have enjoyed reading about the different ways electrical stuff is done. One question that I didn't see the answer to so far (unless I missed it), is regarding this outlet. I assume the switches above each outlet are there to turn power off/on to each outlet?
If so, I'm sure there's a good reason...what is it? Also, why aren't the plug slots centered in their respective plastic housings? How is that cover held on, does it snap on?
Sorry so many questions.

View media item 60879

Keep in mind the U.S. has an extremely long electrical "legacy". Pre-war voltages the US was 110V. Then at some point it it became 115v nominal. That lasted until the 70s or so when the powers at be decided the voltage should be 120v. That also applies to our high-voltage single phase which went 220, 230 and then eventually 240. Same thing with 3 phase service, which went 440, 460 and 480.

Many people I interface with on a daily basis still call our power "110/220", because that's what their father called it, because that's what his father called it. It's pretty harsh to call people who use "110" as "ignorant". I don't call my relatives down in Tennessee ignorant for calling every soft drink a "Coke"

I did not know that, but it makes perfect sense as to why 110 & 220 are still referred to. Thanks for posting this explanation.

 

[HOTFR8]

1/2 has been out of action for some time but I can answer that all our power outlets have a switch like that to turn off each outlet.

We see different versions.

Indoor.

Outdoor.

 

[C_F]

1/2 has been out of action for some time but I can answer that all our power outlets have a switch like that to turn off each outlet.

We see different versions.

Outdoor.

Sorry, I was unaware he's been out of action.

Interesting that all the outlets are switched. Is this done to reduce fire hazards, or some other reason?

 

[HOTFR8]

Sorry, I was unaware he's been out of action.

The Shed Down Under topic has a few reports and updates.

Interesting that all the outlets are switched. Is this done to reduce fire hazards, or some other reason?

You know I am not sure why that is so as I have only ever seen our power points made with a switch.

 

[Ralf99]

It's been that way for 70+ years, so not sure anyone remembers why anymore.

My guess is that safety was a large part of it - the power could be isolated so that the danger of contact with live pins when inserting or removing a plug was eliminated; and devices plugged in to the sockets could be quickly turned off in case of fire etc.

 

[C_F]

Well yeah, I guess if it's been that way over 70 years, then by now it's likely been firmly placed in the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" category of the rule books.

The Shed Down Under topic has a few reports and updates.

Thanks, I will go there next.

 

[Ralf99]

I'm not sure that in this case anything needs to be fixed - it is indeed a safety feature that could benefit much of the rest of the world.

 

[Bob Heine]

Soon after we settled in Manly my wife called to tell me the toaster didn't work. I asked her if the outlet switch was on or off and there was dead silence. It's a great design but Yanks need a warning label (we have them for everything else).

 

[dutchgray]

dutchgray, just a quick question do you guys still have fused plug tops??

With the ring mains you have I personally can't see much benefit in doing things like that as it would have issues this back feeds if you are fault finding.

Again with the ring mains are they RCD protected at both ends of the circuit or am I of track on that??

Our plugs aren't to bad either...

Very late but I will answer.
13 amp plugs are still fused.
Both ends of the ring main are connected to the same breaker, which are protected by an RCD in the distribution panel that feeds the breakers. You have different RCD's for different things. Thats about as far as I know not being an electrician.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Very late but I will answer.
13 amp plugs are still fused.
Both ends of the ring main are connected to the same breaker, which are protected by an RCD in the distribution panel that feeds the breakers. You have different RCD's for different things. Thats about as far as I know not being an electrician.

Thanks for the reply, I thought that was the case but I was a little unsure.

Regards

 

[phor53]

Nice

Sent from my LG-TP450 using Tapatalk

 

[Toranaman1990]

Just wanna jump in and make a small correction regarding "2 phase power"
In reality its split single phase. A single 480V phase winding is centre tapped to create a neutral (which is then earthed), giving you 480 between both active legs and 240 between each leg and neutral, much like the 120/240 supplied to American homes, where two hot legs and a neutral are supplied, but is still one phase and both hot legs aren't any degree separated from each other electrically, just each end of a 240v phase with a neutral in the middle.

In Australia split phase is generally more common in regional and rural areas. Suburban homes have single phase 240v supplied by default, 3 phase if the customer requests it, which used to be common for spas/hot tubs, ducted air conditioning units etc. My 1976 south western Sydney home has it, only because the house was built with 3 phase 415v ducted air conditioning. Which is handy as that is three 100A phases, never have to worry about adding extra loads.

Over here you will note most detached homes don't have basements, therefore our electrical panel (referred to as a fuse box or meter box here) is usually on the side of the house in a metal box with a door that swings up. Inside is the electricity meters, service fuses (1 for single phase, 2 for split, 3 for 3 phase), older houses have one meter per phase, however single meters that measured all 3 phases became available many years ago. Then you have the customers distribution equipment which usually included a main switch, and a row of ceramic wedge fit fuses and bases, with a rewireable fuse element, spare fuse wire (8A for lights, 16A for power circuits, 20A for stoves/air con/ovens/hot water etc and 32A for larger loads as mentioned previously) You would pull the fuse holder out, undo the two screws that hold the wire and replace the melted fuse wire with the correct rating and length of new fuse wire and replace the fuse.

These were easy to fit larger/more strands of wire into if a fuse kept blowing and therefore were a fire hazard. Many of these have been upgraded over the years with the ceramic fuses and holders removed and a plastic load centre and DIN rail circuit breakers/RCD's fitted, RCBO's which combine a circuit breaker and RCD in the one unit are most common now per circuit. Most single storey houses have one lighting circuit and 2 or more power circuits, larger houses 2 or more lighting circuits and 3 or more power circuits. Then of course dedicated circuits for larger equipment, stoves, ovens etc.

Please note I am not a mains electrician, I am an auto electrician and I'm happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Toranaman1990 thank you for the really well articulated explanation.