Wierd Load Center wiring - can you do that?

[Steevo]

I just arrived on site where my shop has been under construction, and in examining the work done by the electrician, I am stumped as to how a building inspector passed this.

Never mind that he was supposed to run 100A service to this panel, that will be corrected and new wire pulled to get what I asked for.

What I am confused about is feeding a sub-panel via a regular double-pole breaker, rather than via the slot that is meant for a "main" breaker.

Look at this picture, and tell me if this is even allowed by NEC?
Incoming feed from main panel ties into the double-pole 50A breaker on the left side of the picture. Doesn't that make the line from the main panel the "load side" of the breaker?

 

[Schrodingers Cat]

it's AC, they work both directions
I believe this is allowed by code if the CB is properly secured
it's called back-feeding

 

[Steevo]

And bet a $10 50A breaker is cheaper than a "real" main breaker?
I will have to change this so that it doesn't waste two breaker slots for me.

 

[porschedude996TT]

Functionally there is nothing wrong, but why didn't he use the existing 100A inlet breaker as the shut off to the panel. The breaker in the main is the one that is really protecting the wiring from the main to the sub. It would just be an over rated service disconnect.

 

[ddawg16]

Looking at the panel, I don't see how you would mount a main incoming breaker.....hence, I can see why they did it....seems like a hack....but....otherwise, it somewhat safe.

 

[walrus]

Its a main lug panel, that's back fed, no big deal. Not sure on the grounding though, what code are you on? Is the building attached?

 

[Schrodingers Cat]

Square D makes a kit to do it:
must be rated for the usage and have the correct mntg kit, if so, safe and no big deal
I think the red thing is the required mntg clip

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/El...s, Homeline (HOM, LK, PK, QOM)/1100HO9902.pdf

 

[Steevo]

Its a main lug panel, that's back fed, no big deal. Not sure on the grounding though, what code are you on? Is the building attached?

It is a detached garage. In a suburb of Idaho Falls, ID.
You would cringe if you saw the other end of that ground wire.
The use rebar for ground rods here. They drive a 1/2" rebar rod into the ground in the center of the foundation trench, so that it protrudes above the foundation a foot or so, and clamp the ground wire to it. It goes 10' deep, but what happens when it rusts away? All of the new construction I have looked at in this region is done that way.

 

[walrus]

It is a detached garage. In a suburb of Idaho Falls, ID.
You would cringe if you saw the other end of that ground wire.
The use rebar for ground rods here. They drive a 1/2" rebar rod into the ground in the center of the foundation trench, so that it protrudes above the foundation a foot or so, and clamp the ground wire to it. It goes 10' deep, but what happens when it rusts away? All of the new construction I have looked at in this region is done that way.

Is the piece of rebar in the concrete? if so its a concrete encase electrode and is what has to be done in new construction for 08 code

 

[porschedude996TT]

What I have seen is what is refered to as a UFER Ground and it is a copper wire that leads to the rebar that is encased in the footing. My recent build used q 25' #6 bare copper wire that followed the footing perimiter rebar and clamped to the rebar using a special UFER Clamp. The rebar does not come above the concrete so that the iron doesn't rust away. Sounds like it wouldn't last for 10 years...

 

[mrb]

why is the neutral bonding screw still in there?

 

[Aceman]

Functionally there is nothing wrong, but why didn't he use the existing 100A inlet breaker as the shut off to the panel. The breaker in the main is the one that is really protecting the wiring from the main to the sub. It would just be an over rated service disconnect.

Detached buildings need a disconnect, hence the backfed breaker.

Looking at the panel, I don't see how you would mount a main incoming breaker.....hence, I can see why they did it....seems like a hack....but....otherwise, it somewhat safe.

Backfeeding a breaker is common for subpanels, how is that hack?

I will have to change this so that it doesn't waste two breaker slots for me.

You lost 4 spaces total, you can't put anything across from the breaker either.

The only issues I see are the bonding screw looks to be installed, you can't reidentify wires(the neutral) #6 and smaller, and he used a disconnect rated less than 60 amps(the 2 pole 50 amp breaker).

 

[oleguy]

why is the neutral bonding screw still in there?

good eye.by all means remove the green ground screw on the neutral buss on the right side of panel.neutral and ground has to be separated.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

They actually do make a main breaker that will fit the panel. You remove the two nuts retaining the lugs, install the main breaker and reinstall the nuts. As noted by others, you lose four spaces of a not very big panel by using the backfed breaker. Also as noted by others, you can bet that standard breaker, plus the required retaining kit, is a whole lot less money than a specialized main breaker kit, but its all quite legal.

See the slots or notches cut into the top middle of the stabs. Those are to allow the "double" breakers to be installed on that stab (two half width breakers riveted together, to supply two separate circuits in the same space as one regular breaker)

If you use the "double breakers" you will have the capability of 16 120v circuits, or 12 120v circuits and one 240v circuit (using a standard double pole handle tied breaker) They also make combination breakers that are four half width breakers riveted together, the two center ones are one handle tied DP circuit and the outer two are separate single pole (120v) circuits. The also make them as the two outer ones tied together with a U shaped handle connection, thus you get two 240v circuits in the same place as one standard DP 240v breaker. Lots of combinations, spend some time in Home Depot or Lowes in the electrical aisle looking at the various breakers.

Charles

 

[Steevo]

Well, the 50A and teh wiring that feeds this panel are going to be replaced with the 100A and 3ga that was specified when i walked this job with the electrician in July.

I am concerned about the green ground screw, though. This should be removed? It separates neutral from ground by doing so, but with it in place they are bonded?

 

[Torque1st]

Nevermind, I am blind tonight.

 

[FastEddieG]

why is the neutral bonding screw still in there?

As I am about to put a subpanel in my attached garage and am over-researching it before I talk to electricians, I caught that too and was curious why. Thanks for asking
-Ed

 

[FastEddieG]

I am concerned about the green ground screw, though. This should be removed? It separates neutral from ground by doing so, but with it in place they are bonded?

From my understanding, the only time the neutral bus and ground bus should be bonded is at the main service (main panel?), and all points after that they should be separate. So the neutral bus should not be bonded to the ground bus within any subpanels by the mere nature of the name. I'm sure the experts will chime in to provide the correct info.
-Ed

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Your ground bar on the left side is screwed directly to the metal of the box. the neutral bar on the right is mounted "above ground" by being insulated from the metal of the box, it is attached to the plastic insulator. Installing that green screw electrically ties the neutral to the ground bar, thru the steel of the box. Unless this is at the service entrance you do not want the green screw installed.

Charles

 

[Steevo]

Your ground bar on the left side is screwed directly to the metal of the box. the neutral bar on the right is mounted "above ground" by being insulated from the metal of the box, it is attached to the plastic insulator. Installing that green screw electrically ties the neutral to the ground bar, thru the steel of the box. Unless this is at the service entrance you do not want the green screw installed.

Charles

Thank you for that clarification, Charles.
I will ask the electrician to explain that.

 

[IBEW]

I just got in the tail end of this but when they install the bigger panel for 100 amps you will have all the space you need. But you need have breakers at both ends in main and sub panel. It is code. But everything looks fine except the bonding screw. Take it out and chuck it. Not needed. When it comes to lighting make sure and use HO 8 foot lights. A bit more money but worth the extra brightness and work better in cold weather.

 

[Steevo]

I just got in the tail end of this but when they install the bigger panel for 100 amps you will have all the space you need. But you need have breakers at both ends in main and sub panel. It is code. But everything looks fine except the bonding screw. Take it out and chuck it. Not needed. When it comes to lighting make sure and use HO 8 foot lights. A bit more money but worth the extra brightness and work better in cold weather.

Thanks, IBEW.
The panel that I have is fine, if I can get back the four wasted slots that backfeeding it takes up. With a 100A main in the proper position at the top of the panel, it will be just great, since it has 12 full-height breaker slots. It is the four full slots wasted that kills me, since that leaves me with 8, and four of those will be taken up by the 50A compressor and 60A welder hookups. Four for everything else is pretty minimal, even if I use double breakers in them to get 8.

I priced a breaker today, and it was $80 for that 100A main to fit that panel.
I can buy a whole new 100A panel at HD for $48 and change, with the 100A main already in it, and the kit includes six (6) 20A breakers, too!
If I can get the electrician to just run the right wire (3AWG) from the main service panel at the house, I'd even buy that HD kit and swap everything myself. There are only two circuits hooked up at this point, so very little to unhook and switch out the panel. First we'll see what comes out of my discussion with the electrician when (if) he calls me back.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[the spyder]

Thanks, IBEW.
The panel that I have is fine, if I can get back the four wasted slots that backfeeding it takes up. With a 100A main in the proper position at the top of the panel, it will be just great, since it has 12 full-height breaker slots. It is the four full slots wasted that kills me, since that leaves me with 8, and four of those will be taken up by the 50A compressor and 60A welder hookups. Four for everything else is pretty minimal, even if I use double breakers in them to get 8.

I priced a breaker today, and it was $80 for that 100A main to fit that panel.
I can buy a whole new 100A panel at HD for $48 and change, with the 100A main already in it, and the kit includes six (6) 20A breakers, too!
If I can get the electrician to just run the right wire (3AWG) from the main service panel at the house, I'd even buy that HD kit and swap everything myself. There are only two circuits hooked up at this point, so very little to unhook and switch out the panel. First we'll see what comes out of my discussion with the electrician when (if) he calls me back.

Thanks for the feedback.

3awg?

Whats the distance from the main?

 

[Steevo]

3awg?

Whats the distance from the main?

Maybe 75-90 ft.

Should this be 2AWG?

 

[belvedere]

It looks like the incoming neutral is taped black.
???

 

[oleguy]

it is taped white.the last 2-3" are showing the black insl.

 

[Steevo]

it is taped white.the last 2-3" are showing the black insl.

Yeah, he ran 6-3 Romex from the main panel in the main house garage, over the ceiling and down the back wall to where the access ell drops into the underground conduit to the shop. In the access ell, he spliced to 3 GA THHN (3, all black, neutral one taped white), and a ground, and these are what appears in that panel in the picture.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Yeah, he ran 6-3 Romex from the main panel in the main house garage, over the ceiling and down the back wall to where the access ell drops into the underground conduit to the shop. In the access ell, he spliced to 3 GA THHN (3, all black, neutral one taped white), and a ground, and these are what appears in that panel in the picture.

That sounds crazy. I think I'd fire this guy for sure. You are limited by the #6 romex. Also, splices are not allowed in the ELL fitting.

Charles

 

[Steevo]

Thanks, Charles, That is good info.
I am planning on having him replace the entire run from main panel to sub panel, with continuous 2 or 3Ga Romex, so I can get my 100A sub panel as I originally specified.
I could use some supporting information regarding the splice in the ell where the Romex meets the conduit. If this is in violation of NEC, can someone provide the code section for me?

 

[Ch3No2]

Aren't the main feed wires already coming from a breaker in the main panel? if so why not put the wires directly into the lugs of the sub panel since they are already protected?

 

[JBurgess]

I could use some supporting information regarding the splice in the ell where the Romex meets the conduit. If this is in violation of NEC, can someone provide the code section for me?

Depends on the type of the ell, either 314.5 or 314.16 (C) (2)
would apply.


314.5 Short-Radius Conduit Bodies. Conduit bodies such
as capped elbows and service-entrance elbows that enclose
conductors 6 AWG or smaller, and are only intended to
enable the installation of the raceway and the contained
conductors, shall not contain splices, taps, or devices and
shall be of sufficient size to provide free space for all conductors
enclosed in the conduit body.

314.16 (C) (2) With Splices, Taps, or Devices. Only those conduit
bodies that are durably and legibly marked by the manufacturer
with their volume shall be permitted to contain
splices, taps, or devices. The maximum number of conductors
shall be calculated in accordance with 314.16(B). Conduit
bodies shall be supported in a rigid and secure manner.

 

[oleguy]

Aren't the main feed wires already coming from a breaker in the main panel? if so why not put the wires directly into the lugs of the sub panel since they are already protected?

use the rule of 6.six or more ckts in a sub panel needs a main in the sub panel.safety....

 

[aandpdan]

Back to the neutral/ground bonding again...

Isn't that a jumper from the neutral to the ground bar? 4th position down on the left, across the hot buss and over to the 4th position on the right?

Not to mention the screw...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Back to the neutral/ground bonding again...

Isn't that a jumper from the neutral to the ground bar? 4th position down on the left, across the hot buss and over to the 4th position on the right?

Not to mention the screw...

Just under the two nuts that hold the lugs on the two hot buss bars..... apparently covered in black heat shrink except the very ends, YES it is! one of the red circles covers part of it making it more difficult to see.

That needs to come out also!

Good eye!!!

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Another issue in the pic, there are three pieces of yellow jacketed Romex entering the box, two at the top, one on the bottom. All three have the grounds and the neutrals connected, but there are only two 20 amp single pole breakers with black 12 gauge wire hooked to them. Where is the third wire connected?

IGNORE EVERYTHING ABOVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!! SEE POST FURTHER DOWN.!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Fire the electrician.

Charles

 

[walrus]

Just under the two nuts that hold the lugs on the two hot buss bars..... apparently covered in black heat shrink except the very ends, YES it is! one of the red circles covers part of it making it more difficult to see.

That needs to come out also!

Good eye!!!

Charles

WHy does that need to come out?? They're both neutral bars, the ground bar is in the upper left hand corner and bonded to the tub. I agree that the "electrician" needs to be gone

 

[Ch3No2]

use the rule of 6.six or more ckts in a sub panel needs a main in the sub panel.safety....

Understand safety...just didnt see 6 sub circuits in the sub panel

 

[Charles (in GA)]

WHy does that need to come out?? They're both neutral bars, the ground bar is in the upper left hand corner and bonded to the tub. I agree that the "electrician" needs to be gone

Yes, If I'd just pay attention to what I was looking at, it would help....... The LH neutral bar is unused.

Sorry, my bad.

not crazy about that neutral laying right across the two hots however.

Charles

 

[Steevo]

I agree that the way the two neutral buss's are tied together is a little crude, but apparently not really "wrong".

So, it sounds like the splice in the ell may or may not be ok, depending on which code section applies?
here is a pic of the conduit/ell in which the splice exists today. It is inside the large one on the left.

I have already asked that the replacement wiring be of one continuous run from main panel to sub panel, with no splice, but maybe it is legal and acceptable to do so? It gives them a way to go from Romex to THHN at the point where they go from exposed to inside a conduit.

 

[Steevo]

Understand safety...just didnt see 6 sub circuits in the sub panel

With the four breaker positions wasted by the backfed main, I end up with only 8 available full-height slots for breakers, but I think the fact that it is in fact a 12-slot panel requires that there be a main. I hope to end up with it in the actual "main" breaker location, leaving me use of all 12 available slots.