Finally denied warranty at Sears for C-man!

[Toolhorder]

I read many posts in the past few months about the hand tool warranty being denied at Sears for whatever reason and I never have a problem when I turn mine in. All that changed today when I attempted to return a couple of things today at a Sears I don't normally frequent.

First let me say that some will say I'm abusing warranty but I didn't write Sears warranty policy and I spend thousands a year at Sears on tools. I simply use the warranty as it's written I don't like when employees or manager's try and make up warranty as they go along.

So I was at the flea market today and found a 3/4 drive 1 1/16 socket and a 1 5/16 wrench. The socket was pretty worn and while I could have cleaned it and used it as is I decided to replace it because it was worn. I didn't know it but the wrench's open end had been grinded larger by it's previous owner to fit a bigger size nut or whatever. To be honest I didn't even notice. Obviously I didn't like it that way and took it back with my socket. The counter lady had a horrible attitude the minute I walked up to ask her to "unlock" the glass doors so I could access the sockets.

She asked what was wrong with the socket (a first for me) and I told her it was worn out. She kinda looked at me funny and went to go get the replacement. She brought back a 1/2 drive socket 1 1/16 and then complained about looking forever for it. I told her she had the wrong one and see then elected for another employee to find it. I handed her the wrench and she immediately told me I couldn't return the wrench because it had grind marks on it. I asked her where it says that voids the warranty and she called a manager. About 10 mins. goes by while I'm standing there and this lady comes up and the girl tells her how I voided the warranty by grinding on the wrench. The manager starts to tell me the same story like I didn't already hear it from the first girl and I pull out a free tool catalog flip to the end and point out that the warranty does not say anything about being void from being modified. She tells me she can't do it and walks away. She tells the girl to call another manager. Okay the next manager calls instead of coming in person and she tells him what I said and how I pointed out the warranty out of the catalog and he asks her how much the tool is. She gets off the phone and says they'll return it this time like I'm putting them out or something for returning it. I didn't even respond to her. Got my replacements and took off.
I know some of you won't agree and think I'm a d-bag for taking them back when I got them used but like I said I have plenty of stuff I got new over the last 20 years and I have grinded my own wrenches down so what. I don't see anything in the warranty stating I can't take it back. I have a problem with clerks and manager's making up policy whenever they feel like it. I've heard the excuses about pro use, grind marks, rust, whatever.
I have a 1" wrench I grinded the open end thinner to make a tappet wrench out of because they didn't have one for sale at the time. I'm thinking about taking it back just to piss them off tomorrow.

Okay awaiting flaming from fellow GJ members.

 

[back2class]

No flame from me. Sears used to advertise people abusing their tools and getting a replacement. I recall a craftsman add where a wrench is used and bent pullin a truck out of a ditch. and the catch phraee was "for any reason" It is figured into the selling price and transfers with the tool. Now I personaly would not have warrantied the wrench but do not fault you for it. I do not fault the staff for being a little harsh in this case.

 

[Toolhorder]

No flame from me. Sears used to advertise people abusing their tools and getting a replacement. I recall a craftsman add where a wrench is used and bent pullin a truck out of a ditch. and the catch phraee was "for any reason" It is figured into the selling price and transfers with the tool. Now I personaly would not have warrantied the wrench but do not fault you for it. I do not fault the staff for being a little harsh in this case.

The wrench was grinded to like 2" though. I would have kept it if it wasn't so jacked up. Honestly I have tons of C-man stuff I could return but I usually don't unless the tool is worn so bad I could hurt myself or it's unusable.
I'm thinking about using my electric engraving tool on that 1" homemade tappet wrench and putting Sears ***** balls or something on the grinded down part and take it back. Or how about "I grinded this to make you mad, lolz"

 

[GT89mustang]

I dont agree with them not replacing the socket, but I think you were wrong with the wrench, if you ruined it why should they replace it, and I dont think you shouldve given them a hard time about it.

 

[Toolhorder]

I know some don't agree with me on the Sears thing. I didn't write the warranty policy though and they opened themselfs to returning anything I'm just using it. Like back to class said I remember them saying if you broke it on purpose they would gladly replace it.

 

[Red Green]

I personally don't return a tool that I have modified with a grinder other than when I add a tip to a screwdriver after the first one broke. I keep using tools untill they don't do the job any more and I will return them then. But I do have some lazer etched sockets that there is nothing wrong with then other than they have to go back before I can no longer read where is says Craftsman.

 

[ImportTuner]

I know some don't agree with me on the Sears thing. I didn't write the warranty policy though and they opened themselfs to returning anything I'm just using it. Like back to class said I remember them saying if you broke it on purpose they would gladly replace it.

You probably contribute to warranties going away; I can see if a tool broke while you are using it (not abusing it) and get warranty replacment, but people who go to flea markets, garage sales, ebay, etc .. and intentionally abuse the system results in it going away .. just my two cents ..

 

[Fedwrench]

Well, all of the Sears haters should be impressed that you got new tools although, I don't think you deserved to get the new tools. The fact that you try to jusify your actions by saying that you've bought alot of Sears tools new over the years indicates that even you know what you did was basically fraud. I also don't understand how a modified wrench falls under the "fails to give complete satisfaction" warranty but, I'm not Sears. The bottom line is you got new tools for a fraction of what they would cost new by trading in flea market finds. Sears has lost money on the deal. Warranty fraud affects all tool users and makes future legitimate claims harder for all of us. I hope Sears reads this thread and changes the warranty standards. Perhaps they need to require proof of purchase.

 

[mjozefow]

They should have replaced it. I've seen more blatant abuse than grinding. Newer Craftsman tools are not worth much without their no-hassle GAURANTEE.

Whether or not you should have warrantied is really not the debate here.

 

[kwhitelaw]

You probably contribute to warranties going away; I can see if a tool broke while you are using it (not abusing it) and get warranty replacment, but people who go to flea markets, garage sales, ebay, etc .. and intentionally abuse the system results in it going away .. just my two cents ..

hence the reason guys on here ***** about why their local truck brand driver refused warranty on the ************* they bought on ebay or found in a field.

just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[AutoTech]

For me I don't agree with them replacing a socket because it wore out. Wasn't the socket's fault, not the tool dealer or manufactures fault either. if it's worn that bad you have got your use out of it and just buy another.

 

[kwhitelaw]

Perhaps they need to require proof of purchase.

ack, bite your tongue LOL... If SO started doing that, it would ****. I only buy hard handle screwdrivers now and if I bust a blade, I'd be SOL as it more than likely came from ebay, or someone on here..

 

[kwhitelaw]

For me I don't agree with them replacing a socket because it wore out. Wasn't the socket's fault, not the tool dealer or manufactures fault either. if it's worn that bad you have got your use out of it and just buy another.

 

[back2class]

You probably contribute to warranties going away; I can see if a tool broke while you are using it (not abusing it) and get warranty replacment, but people who go to flea markets, garage sales, ebay, etc .. and intentionally abuse the system results in it going away .. just my two cents ..

I don't see it as abuse if they advertise such a service. Taking full advantage....yes. It's his right under the contract and I do not really fault him for using it. And as I said, I don't shame Sears for giving you a hard time...in the end they did honor the contract.....like you pushing the limits of it.

 

[Toolhorder]

For me I don't agree with them replacing a socket because it wore out. Wasn't the socket's fault, not the tool dealer or manufactures fault either. if it's worn that bad you have got your use out of it and just buy another.

I dunno, the wrench was sketchy at best but the socket was worn out. It's not the consumer's fault either. Maybe it was bad broaching, who knows?
I think because I bought the tool used I'm a little wrong but if I bought it new and they failed to return it I think that's BS.

I wouldn't buy another C-man hand tool if they quit honoring the warranty or changed it. It's not worth the money at that point.

 

[Toolhorder]

I don't see it as abuse if they advertise such a service. Taking full advantage....yes. It's his right under the contract and I do not really fault him for using it. And as I said, I don't shame Sears for giving you a hard time...in the end they did honor the contract.....like you pushing the limits of it.

I'm glad someone sees it like I do...

 

[Fedwrench]

ack, bite your tongue LOL... If SO started doing that, it would ****. I only buy hard handle screwdrivers now and if I bust a blade, I'd be SOL as it more than likely came from ebay, or someone on here..

Replacement parts for those screwdrivers are drying up. Wait until you get handed an Instinct screwdriver as a replacement.

But seriously, there are countless threads here about people hating to see tool companies move production overseas, tool quality in decline, all of the imported tools, etc. What makes it worse is when tool users directly contribute to the decline of US made tools and the companies that sell them, by committing warranty fraud.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I think you should've gotten the socket replaced. If you have a wrench that's been grinded down, I don't think they should've honored the warranty for that.

However much you've spend on tools at Sears in the past is irrelevant. And sorry, but I'm not buying the "I've spend thousands of dollars a year on tools at Sears" anyway.

 

[Toolhorder]

You probably contribute to warranties going away; I can see if a tool broke while you are using it (not abusing it) and get warranty replacment, but people who go to flea markets, garage sales, ebay, etc .. and intentionally abuse the system results in it going away .. just my two cents ..

People say that but I don't agree. I know as a business model Sears has bean counted and figured in X amount of tool returns. I know they still make money selling tools because they're still in business over 100 yrs. later selling the same stuff.
I know I got these at the flea market but it's no different than my father and grandfather passing the tools down to me and me returning them when they break or whatever.
In the end we'll all agree to disagree on this subject as it's been covered here before but my point of posting it was to point out how employee's and manager's are making up the policy as the go along with isn't what the warranty says. If we let them start doing this it won't be long before these policys are written in the catalogs.

 

[AutoTech]

I dunno, the wrench was sketchy at best but the socket was worn out. It's not the consumer's fault either. Maybe it was bad broaching, who knows?
I think because I bought the tool used I'm a little wrong but if I bought it new and they failed to return it I think that's BS.

I wouldn't buy another C-man hand tool if they quit honoring the warranty or changed it. It's not worth the money at that point.

So what your saying is if you had the socket for 10 years used everyday and it wore out you think sears owes you another socket. Thats totally wrong it's not the sockets fault it wore out because it was well used and you got your use out of it. It's guys like you that are making it harder for other guys too get tools warrantied for legitimate warranty claims!

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

So what your saying is if you had the socket for 10 years used everyday and it wore out you think sears owes you another socket. Thats totally wrong it's not the sockets fault it wore out because it was well used and you got your use out of it. It's guys like you that are making it harder for other guys too get tools warrantied for legitimate warranty claims!

Auto Tech, what does lifetime warranty mean to you?

 

[AutoTech]

Auto Tech, what does lifetime warranty mean to you?

If the socket breaks I have no problem returning it. If it's just plain worn out that is not the sockets fault, there all going to wear with alot of use, it's certainly not a fault in the workmanship or quality of socket. Tell me how it's the manufactures fault?

 

[kwhitelaw]

If the socket breaks I have no problem returning it. If it's just plain worn out that is not the sockets fault, there all going to wear with alot of use, it's certainly not a fault in the workmanship or quality of socket. Tell me how it's the manufactures fault?

problem is, no one is pointing fault. just asking what lifetime warranty means.

sad fact is, if the warranty isnt explicit in stating physical damage etc, it has to be covered.. if sears changed that to cover physical damage, they would lose a lot of sales because, lets face it, people shop there because they know if they break it, they get to swap it.

Snap On has in their fine print that their warranty is for the original purchaser, hence why some truck drivers give friction to some joe shmoe off the street with a box of warranty tools that look like they came off the titanic.

 

[Toolhorder]

And sorry, but I'm not buying the "I've spend thousands of dollars a year on tools at Sears" anyway.

Really?? What makes you say that. I seriously have spent at least $2k in the last year. I'm not making it up to make me sound better. I'm a professional mechanic and I usually buy stuff all the time from Sears and in the last year I've been remodeling my home so I had to buy a bunch of new stuff for that type of work, cordless combos, nailer combo, table saw, hell I spent over $100 on Hansen socket trays a couple months ago. Maybe I'll buy that crappy yeller box when it goes on clearance and then you'll believe me?

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Really?? What makes you say that. I seriously have spent at least $2k in the last year. I'm not making it up to make me sound better.

Fair enough. Just sounded exaggerated...but you're backing it up so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Though, as I posted earlier...it is irrelevant in the case of Sears anyway.

Now, if the situation was the same but with a truck tool dealer, then it would be very relevant IMO, b/c that's a specific individual you've been giving your business to. As well, the truck tool dealers have much more discretion in their warranties.

 

[Toolhorder]

problem is, no one is pointing fault. just asking what lifetime warranty means.

sad fact is, if the warranty isnt explicit in stating physical damage etc, it has to be covered.. if sears changed that to cover physical damage, they would lose a lot of sales because, lets face it, people shop there because they know if they break it, they get to swap it.

Snap On has in their fine print that their warranty is for the original purchaser, hence why some truck drivers give friction to some joe shmoe off the street with a box of warranty tools that look like they came off the titanic.

LMAO,
(raises hand) Well I haven't turned in a box but I did send in a 1/2 long socket with no date code to see if they would send me a new one. They honored it and sent and brand new shiny one in it's place. I'm kinda thinking I should have kept it though in retrospect. I'll tell you one thing I never would try and return a grinded up SO tool to a truck dealer. I'd get laughed off his truck I'm sure. They WOULD have a tappet wrench though if I needed one. Stupid vacuum modulator on a 62 Tempest! Only a thin 1" open end fits the damn thing.

 

[Toolhorder]

Fair enough. Just sounded exaggerated...but you're backing it up so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Though, as I posted earlier...it is irrelevant in the case of Sears anyway.

Ahh, thanks then. I just wanted you to know I wasn't BSing. I haven't always spent that much every year though but this year was a big tool year. My wife isn't too happy BTW.

Now, if the situation was the same but with a truck tool dealer, then it would be very relevant IMO, b/c that's a specific individual you've been giving your business to. As well, the truck tool dealers have much more discretion in their warranties

I can see that and maybe that's where I'm coming from. I buy off the trucks and that's probably why I have that mentality about this experience. I'm adding up all the stuff I'm purchased in my head as this min. wage worker trys to throw her weight around about a $25 wrench. I would have cut off the open end and kept the closed end if they didn't give me a new one and then just not bought anymore tools from them.
Sears is alright, I have started buying stuff from them in the last year especially after reading posts on this site.

 

[Vinko]

The fact that you try to jusify your actions by saying that you've bought alot of Sears tools new over the years indicates that even you know what you did was basically fraud.

+1

If the OP was my customer, and it was my hardware store, I'd rather lose him as a customer, even if he did spend thousands, than replace that wrench.

 

[Flash21]

If everyone would use a warranty like Sears', when they need it and is legit, it will be around for the rest of us. If it is abused, it will only be so long before it is gone and that is good for nobody.

 

[Toolhorder]

+1

If the OP was my customer, and it was my hardware store, I'd rather lose him as a customer, even if he did spend thousands, than replace that wrench.

I think you're full of it or you don't understand basic business practices. It's not personal it's business. I own a vending business and have about 42 machines out at any given time give or take. I get complains all the time when servicing my machines. For example I'm out on my route refilling soda machines. If someone comes up and says the machine took their money I can't tell them to F off I have to give them product or money or both to make them happy. These people are in businesses that house my machines and they use them all the time. The volume of sales makes up for any losses I have at the locations I have. I once had a lady tell me my machine took her $3. Now nothing I sell in my machines is $3 so I have to question how this happened but I don't I just give them $3 and I'm on my way. I'm gonna make the money back over time it's already figured into my figures for the year as well as the food that spoils, etc..
Look we can disagree and that's fine. I'm only responding to play the other side of the coin for a min. that some people may not get. I knew the $3 lady was probably lying about the amount or the whole thing but I'm the volume of sales to me is worth giving her back $3. It will probably end up in my machine later that day so whatever.

 

[Vinko]

I think you're full of it or you don't understand basic business practices. It's not personal it's business. I own a vending business and have about 42 machines out at any given time give or take. I get complains all the time when servicing my machines. For example I'm out on my route refilling soda machines. If someone comes up and says the machine took their money I can't tell them to F off I have to give them product or money or both to make them happy. These people are in businesses that house my machines and they use them all the time. The volume of sales makes up for any losses I have at the locations I have. I once had a lady tell me my machine took her $3. Now nothing I sell in my machines is $3 so I have to question how this happened but I don't I just give them $3 and I'm on my way. I'm gonna make the money back over time it's already figured into my figures for the year as well as the food that spoils, etc..
Look we can disagree and that's fine. I'm only responding to play the other side of the coin for a min. that some people may not get. I knew the $3 lady was probably lying about the amount or the whole thing but I'm the volume of sales to me is worth giving her back $3. It will probably end up in my machine later that day so whatever.

I agree that it's not "personal." I believe I understand "basic business practices." I don't always follow them. I believe that honesty and ethics is more important than the dollar. Dishonesty is an affront to my values. In the past, we've given up customer accounts that were profitable, because the customer would always claim a loss on his shipment, even when we knew he was lying.

I know you may think I'm "full of it," and that's fine. That's said, I've learned (reluctantly) to be expedient in business. So in the example you gave, I'd probably refund the money for the wrench, or replace the wrench, but I wouldn't sell to you again. I've learned that it freaks people out when you place one value higher than another value. Especially when that "other" value is making money, which is, after all, the raison d'etre of business. So maybe your half right. I may understand "basic business practices," but I certainly don't always follow them.

 

[autoace]

I think it is just time for Sears to change their warranty, period. They can legally change it, nothing is etched in stone.

Although people claim, hey I didn't right the warranty, that is no excuse to abuse it.

I mean really, when you go to an all you can eat buffet, do you take all the food, because you could eat it, it just may take a week, because the sign does not say this sitting only?

There has to be a limit, where common sense takes over bogus entitlement attitudes. If it does not, then the warranty should just be changed, and then Sears can just call the police to remove person(s) from the store, that make a fuss for no reason.

 

[Toolhorder]

I think it is just time for Sears to change their warranty, period. They can legally change it, nothing is etched in stone.

Although people claim, hey I didn't right the warranty, that is no excuse to abuse it.

I mean really, when you go to an all you can eat buffet, do you take all the food, because you could eat it, it just may take a week, because the sign does not say this sitting only?

There has to be a limit, where common sense takes over bogus entitlement attitudes. If it does not, then the warranty should just be changed, and then Sears can just call the police to remove person(s) from the store, that make a fuss for no reason.

I agree completely with what you are saying. I just took advantage of their own rules and if those rules change I won't be able to do it anymore.
It's not like I do that all the time either BTW. I have plenty of worn C-man tools but if it's bad enough or unuseble I take it in.

 

[TudorWagon]

Though I have a few SnapOn tools, 95% of my tools are Craftsman. I've replaced a lot of "broken" tools over the past 35 years, but would never think to consider asking for a replacement if I put a grinder to it. I do feel if it is worn out from "normal wear and tear", they should replace it -- since breakage is often due to normal wear and tear anyway. And I'd prefer it isn't my hand that eventually breaks from using a worn tool.

I understand the rational of "for any reason" being the justification to take advantage of the warranty service -- and anyone has the right to do this, since that's what it says they'll do -- I just don't feel it was a manufacturer defect when I altered the tool, so in my mind I would say, "Hey, that was my doing" and leave it at that and buy the replacement myself. Although I doubt Sears is going to go out of business due to replacing tools that break - by any means - I think I'd still have a tough time asking them to replace one I knew I shouldn't be asking them to replace... anymore than, if the roles were reversed, I'd want someone to ask of me what I don't owe them just because I didn't write a 10-page warranty that would exclude anything depending on how you twist the words. Some golden rule thing I had pounded into my brain, I guess.

 

[FastEddieG]

This has been argued over and over and over. The problem in the arguments is they repeat the same old two sides: what a person would do in a given situation vs what the consumer is allowed to do by exercising an agreement OFFERED BY SEARS. What you would do does not dictate contract law. Words/agreements do.

The only true party that completely understands what a warranty entails (or was meant to entail) is the creator of said warranty, in this case Sears. Sears knows what they are doing with the warranty, how much it costs them, etc. They have MANY years of sales data and warranty data to crunch, and yet they continue offering it.

Besides the SIMPLE language of the warranty, this post confirms its simplicity.

David Figler the VP/GMM, Hardware,Tools & Paint at Sears.

Subject: Craftsman Hand Tool Lifetime Warranty

There have been several news articles and emails regarding customers being denied Craftsman Hand Tool exchanges for reasons that are not part of the warranty. We've had specific complaints of denied exchanges based on:

- Tools having rust on them

- A 3 Piece per day limit on exchanges

These are NOT valid reasons for denying our customers their right to exchange their Craftsman Tools under the Lifetime Warranty.

The warranty states: "If for any reason your Craftsman hand tool ever fails to provide complete satisfaction, return it to any Sears store or other Craftsman outlet in the United States for free repair or replacement. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state."

Our Craftsman Hand Tool Lifetime Warranty is one of the most important competitive advantages we have in the market. It is crucial that we ensure all of our sales associates are trained to understand all the hand tools that are covered under this warranty.

So, the questions from this specific instance as I see them are:

--Does this lifetime warranty/lifetime satisfaction guarantee apply to the tool and all subsequent owners, or life of the original owner?

--Is this warranty void if you alter the item? Or is it only good for manufacturer defects?

I see neither stipulated in their simple language, and they've never asked for proof of purchase, so I think it's safe to presume it's intended for the life of the tool. And since it never says defects, and only that it will give you satisfaction for lifetime.

Everyone can decipher the warranty to mean whatever you want it to mean. I personally wouldn't take a tool I altered, or one that I didn't purchase, back for replacement. But that's me. All of you have your own opinions too. However, what it means to Sears and to a judge is a different conversation.

My $0.02,
-Ed

 

[BackTracker]

I'm a d-bag

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Toolhorder]

This has been argued over and over and over. The problem in the arguments is they repeat the same old two sides: what a person would do in a given situation vs what the consumer is allowed to do by exercising an agreement OFFERED BY SEARS. What you would do does not dictate contract law. Words/agreements do.

The only true party that completely understands what a warranty entails (or was meant to entail) is the creator of said warranty, in this case Sears. Sears knows what they are doing with the warranty, how much it costs them, etc. They have MANY years of sales data and warranty data to crunch, and yet they continue offering it.

Besides the SIMPLE language of the warranty, this post confirms its simplicity.



So, the questions from this specific instance as I see them are:

--Does this exception lifetime warranty/lifetime satisfaction guarantee apply to the tool and all subsequent owners, or life of the original owner?

--Is this warranty void if you alter the item? Or is it only good for manufacturer defects?

I see neither stipulated in their simple language, and they've never asked for proof of purchase, so I think it's safe to presume it's intended for the life of the tool. And since it never says defects, and only that it will give you satisfaction for lifetime.

Everyone can decipher the warranty to mean whatever you want it to mean. What it means to Sears and to a judge is a different conversation.

My $0.02,
-Ed

Thanks for that well worded post. That's the point I'm trying to make. Their warranty wording and I'm just using it. People can say what they want and I hate to sound like a lawyer but it doesn't say NO GRINDING so I took it back. The employees shouldn't try and make up what they think the warranty should be besides they aren't losing anything giving me a new tool in exchange so I don't see what making my experience in the store crappy is all about. I shouldn't have had to go through two managers and 20 mins. of my time to exchange a couple of tools. I never have this kind of experience at the two stores I usually go to closer to my house. I go to one at least 3-4 times a month (not just to warranty something) I actually buy tools and they don't ask me anything just throw the old one in the bin and give me a new one. In fact I bought a new Vaughan framing hammer to build a redwood fence and a C-man finishing hammer and trim nail punch set to install baseboard trim a couple weeks ago and the guys asks me how it's going with my remodel. No problems. Even get spare rebuild kits for my ratchets when they get rebuilt.

 

[Toolhorder]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Set myself up for that didn't I? lol

 

[Toolhorder]

Maybe next time I can grind "NOT SATISFIED" on the wrench then return it.

 

[Danglerb]

The warranty is a sales device, and of their own making.

OTOH returning those items, depending on how Sears costs returns, may have taken everybody working in that dept out of the black for a day or even several days, killed weekly or monthly profit based incentives, so keep in mind whose toes you may be stepping on, its nobody at the top of Sears its line employees.

Isn't kind of lying? Its a satisfaction warranty, but are you in fact unsatisfied with how the tool has performed, or has the tool performed well within expectation and its now damaged as any other tool would be.

I also agree with others comments, its a me first kind of thing. Abuse of warranty does a bit of damage to everybody else.

Get some tokens that work in your vending machines and hand those out as refunds. Used to be the place the machine was in always had some painted coins for giving refunds to customers.