I am ready to vinyl side my 30' x 27' pole building. I am debating on contracting the job out or doing it myself. I have built the entire thing so far just by researching each step of the process on here or other websites. The funds aren't really there to contract it out unless absolutely necessary. My main concern is getting the starter strip level all the way around the building. Is there an easy way to do this? How do most people do it? The rest of the job should be fairly easy considering the only things I will need to go around are a garage door opening and a man door. The soffit and fascia are already done as well. Any information is greatly appreciated.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Vinyl Siding Starter Strip Level Around Building
- Thread starter blair683
- Start date
foilingfool2
Active member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 35
A easy and low cost solution would be to use a water level. You can buy one pretty cheaply, or make one yourself. They are very accurate as well.
Tom
Tom
david71984
Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2015
- Messages
- 8
The way we did mine was measure the lowest point on the building to the ground either being concrete etc to bottom of walls to cover up. Pull that measurement all the way around and pop a string line. The contractor that helped me said it was to ensure all the pieces will end up correctly and even at the top. We would check measurements every other row to make sure it was level across. Hope that helps.
Bretny
Well-known member
If you built the garage this far siding will be a SNAP..litteraly. we used a line level and varified by looking down a 6ft level from 3 corners. Aftet the stsrter strip was up we only measured one other time, half way up the wall.
Once the starter strip is up it goes prety fast. Just about as fast as you can get nails in it.
Once the starter strip is up it goes prety fast. Just about as fast as you can get nails in it.
rayra
Well-known member
You can rent a laser level, inexpensively.
But check level on your garage door opening. And maybe try to align your siding spacing so it hits that header evenly and have the bottom fall where it may.
But check level on your garage door opening. And maybe try to align your siding spacing so it hits that header evenly and have the bottom fall where it may.
firebirdparts
Well-known member
Vinyl is really easy to work with. You'll enjoy it. You don't actually need to be level, but it helps. Personally, I prefer to be a uniform distance from the top of the wall. You could use a line level, cost $1, double check that by measuring up to the top of the wall.
You won't stay level just because you start level. You can measure a run of siding (not just the starter strip) up to the top of the wall to see how you're doing.
The part you are going to notice visually is how your siding lines break right up next to the soffit. So think about that, where that soffit is going to be. You may want to make that come out a certain way, and if you do, measure up to your mark there frequently to see how you're running.
If anything goes wrong, you can just take it down and do it differently. It's easy.
You won't stay level just because you start level. You can measure a run of siding (not just the starter strip) up to the top of the wall to see how you're doing.
The part you are going to notice visually is how your siding lines break right up next to the soffit. So think about that, where that soffit is going to be. You may want to make that come out a certain way, and if you do, measure up to your mark there frequently to see how you're running.
If anything goes wrong, you can just take it down and do it differently. It's easy.
Marctrees
Well-known member
Water level, homemade or purchased ready to use, and some study how to use, AND triple BACK checking.. or Friend w "Builders Level" or ""Transit"" That KNOWS how to use it.
NOT while consuming a second Six Pack.
Water level is just as accurate as the finest builder level, but you gotta know how to use it, like any other tool.
NOT string or line level, too much deviation possibility from different ways.
After you have the bottom starting marks, doublecheck occassionaly up from there as courses proceed... kinda like checking decking boards every few as you go along.
And every few courses, check w very taut mason line for straightness.
You can do it !!
Marc
NOT while consuming a second Six Pack.
Water level is just as accurate as the finest builder level, but you gotta know how to use it, like any other tool.
NOT string or line level, too much deviation possibility from different ways.
After you have the bottom starting marks, doublecheck occassionaly up from there as courses proceed... kinda like checking decking boards every few as you go along.
And every few courses, check w very taut mason line for straightness.
You can do it !!
Marc
Last edited:
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You already built the building presumably somewhat level... Simply measure down from the soffits on the eave sides of the building to a point near the foundation at each corner, transfer the lines to the gable sides and then snap lines between those points. With vinyl if you are off an 1/8" or so it will not show as you move up the building anyway.
You don't need a laser level, a water level or a line level. The building is your level, if the siding is slightly off it won't matter as it will be "level" to the building.
If your building is that far off level you will have other problems with your siding when you get to the top.
You don't need a laser level, a water level or a line level. The building is your level, if the siding is slightly off it won't matter as it will be "level" to the building.
If your building is that far off level you will have other problems with your siding when you get to the top.
oldmxracer
Well-known member
Just check with a level at bottom edge of Your sheeting. New building should be close to level.
Vinyl is very easy to work with. You can just keep an eye on it with a level and when You get towards the top measure it.
Do put the siding on so the laps don't show from Your high traffic areas and all laps are the same direction.
It is always a dead giveaway that it was homeowner done, when You don't !
Vinyl is very easy to work with. You can just keep an eye on it with a level and when You get towards the top measure it.
Do put the siding on so the laps don't show from Your high traffic areas and all laps are the same direction.
It is always a dead giveaway that it was homeowner done, when You don't !
Bluedodge
Well-known member
..and remember, you HANG vinyl siding, not nail it.
Your nails do NOT go snug against the siding. That way it can expand and contract with changing temps. If you nail it taught, it will bind up and buckle (and look like poop).
Your nails do NOT go snug against the siding. That way it can expand and contract with changing temps. If you nail it taught, it will bind up and buckle (and look like poop).
Marctrees
Well-known member
You already built the building presumably somewhat level... Simply measure down from the soffits on the eave sides of the building to a point near the foundation at each corner, transfer the lines to the gable sides and then snap lines between those points. With vinyl if you are off an 1/8" or so it will not show as you move up the building anyway.
You don't need a laser level, a water level or a line level. The building is your level, if the siding is slightly off it won't matter as it will be "level" to the building.
If your building is that far off level you will have other problems with your siding when you get to the top.
Yes, IF that is true, it IS true.
As long as its +- less than I dunno, 1/2".. , good enough
Marc
6768rogues
Banned
I was in the siding business for 20 years. I would use a home made water level about 10 to 12 inches up from the bottom of the wood. If a wall was over about 30 feet, I put a mark every 30 feet or so. That is because a chalk line, even with nylon line, will start to sag beyond 30 feet. Snap a chalk line connecting the dots. With a level line, I would measure to the top of the siding area and to windows to see how level the building is. If the building and windows are a little out of level, sometimes it is better to run the siding with the building. In that case, make a new line. Also, if the windows and top panel will be in a bad place on the siding panels, there is an opportunity to start a little lower and have things work out better. Then I would measure down from the line to the starter strip and nail on the starter. Something like hook my tape on the lock on the starter and it is 11.5 inches below the line or whatever. Easy stuff if you think about it. Starter on, corners on, blast on the siding.
I would also measure up to the windows to see which panels they would fall in. I like to have window cuts in a panel, not spanning two panels. I don't want to repeat where an overlap is until three courses are separating them. I don't want the overlaps to look like steps. It would go something like start with a full panel on the first course, half panel on the second, three quarters panel on the third and quarter panel on the fourth, then repeat. If the windows require, that pattern can be adjusted such as starting with the half panel, then three quarters and so on. No pieces less than 18" and no small pieces in the middle of the wall. Laying it out makes those separations of seams work with the window cuts where they should be. I would mark the wall with a magic marker so all the thinking was done before the first panel was hung. Then I could turn on the radio and enjoy hanging the whole wall.
I would also measure up to the windows to see which panels they would fall in. I like to have window cuts in a panel, not spanning two panels. I don't want to repeat where an overlap is until three courses are separating them. I don't want the overlaps to look like steps. It would go something like start with a full panel on the first course, half panel on the second, three quarters panel on the third and quarter panel on the fourth, then repeat. If the windows require, that pattern can be adjusted such as starting with the half panel, then three quarters and so on. No pieces less than 18" and no small pieces in the middle of the wall. Laying it out makes those separations of seams work with the window cuts where they should be. I would mark the wall with a magic marker so all the thinking was done before the first panel was hung. Then I could turn on the radio and enjoy hanging the whole wall.
Last edited:
oldmxracer
Well-known member
Blair, just read Your post again, Christ if You built that, the siding will be easy and fun !
Last edited:
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Rent a laser level... I had to do a patio across two pads 60 feet apart and needed the patio to drain properly... I am glad I took the extra time and expense to do it right...
n20junkie
Well-known member
A laser level was one of the best investments I made on my project. Along with a survey tripod and measuring pole and the included laser detector, most tasks were handled solo. Everything comes out dead level and makes things like siding much easier.
I'll throw this out, make sure your courses match at the corners. That can be a tell tale sign of out of level siding.
ryan20021982
Well-known member
We always use a transit but I did borrowed a Bosch laser form the neighbor and used it last time and its very nice, self leveling and can see just fine right in the sun.
alwaysFlOoReD
Well-known member
In this case measure down from the soffit. Run a chalk line so the chalk can be seen as you nail the starter on. The starter should hang over the concrete about a half inch, but you can adjust that so the last row isn't some bad width...like 1/2". D-5 siding is 10" wide and will stretch about 1/2" in 8 feet when I put it on, I like it snug because fresh lumber shrinks and settles slightly, especially between floors. Always start your first piece farthest from the front of the house [or entry], that way the overlap is correct and won't be as noticeable. When the siding is locked in properly it will slide sideways quite easily, this is a good way to double check. Correct flashing is more important than siding installation as the housewrap and flashing are what protects the walls from moisture, not the siding.
Edit; It looks like there is no windows, that makes it easier. Caulk the siding J to the trim around your doors. Make sure to use drip cap over the doors. Contrary to a previous member, I like a step pattern. It's quicker and uses less material. Start with a 12' piece, then a 10', 8' 6' etc. Fill in the next sheets with full pieces. When you get to a point where you have to cut a piece to fit, the left over goes back to start another row...no waste. There is also less walking back and forth which saves time and energy. The gable ends are a little trickier. Most times I can still use a step pattern but with 4' increments instead, 12', 8', 4' [because of the angle].
You can do it.
I've been doing it for 35 years.
Edit; It looks like there is no windows, that makes it easier. Caulk the siding J to the trim around your doors. Make sure to use drip cap over the doors. Contrary to a previous member, I like a step pattern. It's quicker and uses less material. Start with a 12' piece, then a 10', 8' 6' etc. Fill in the next sheets with full pieces. When you get to a point where you have to cut a piece to fit, the left over goes back to start another row...no waste. There is also less walking back and forth which saves time and energy. The gable ends are a little trickier. Most times I can still use a step pattern but with 4' increments instead, 12', 8', 4' [because of the angle].
You can do it.
I've been doing it for 35 years.
Last edited:
pcmeiners
Well-known member
A easy and low cost solution would be to use a water level. You can buy one pretty cheaply, or make one yourself. They are very accurate as well.
Tom
To add....
Water level is the way to go. 3/8 in min diameter clear hose, let water sit for 24 hours in a bucket so air leaves water, add a bit of food dye, siphon water into hose, best to use the level in morning or late afternoon (as the sun heats the water, causing expansion). After getting level points on all building corners (half way up building) get a line around the building using a chalk snap line. Measure down from this line to the point you want for starter strip. Use the chalk line to set your course lines level, snap a line for the starter course, measure up to create another level line before you side over the original chalk line.
If you use the present building level you might be off considerably, looking down a level, or using a standard level is a recipe for really bad lines.
I am leaning toward a water level, I like the fact that you can go around corners with it. Since I will be working so close to the ground. Will it be fine if the excess hose is laying on the ground when I am using it?
pcmeiners
Well-known member
" Will it be fine if the excess hose is laying on the ground when I am using it? "
No affect whatsoever, as long as it is not in direct sunlight or air is still in the water.
You will be more accurate/easier if you make your level marks at eye level.
No affect whatsoever, as long as it is not in direct sunlight or air is still in the water.
You will be more accurate/easier if you make your level marks at eye level.
Last edited:
Radix2
Well-known member
Rogues hit the high points - they keys to a good siding job are
- does it look straight ?- your eyes can see deviations looking down a wall easily
- are the details right ?- corners match, constant reveals, proper laps, proper plans at windows, doors, etc.
- does it work ? - flashing flashing flashing done right.
Good visuals mean it has to work with the building, super level siding that causes the reveals at windows and soffits to be off is a mistake, the eye can see a small deviations in a narrow piece and can not see "level" unless it is extremely off.
Work with the building, measure to make the plan come out and use strings and sight lines to make sure you are straight.
The time to level was when building, now you have to use your canvas as it is -and paint the best picture using its landscape. A tight light string, a tape, markers, some nails and a good plan is top priority.
- does it look straight ?- your eyes can see deviations looking down a wall easily
- are the details right ?- corners match, constant reveals, proper laps, proper plans at windows, doors, etc.
- does it work ? - flashing flashing flashing done right.
Good visuals mean it has to work with the building, super level siding that causes the reveals at windows and soffits to be off is a mistake, the eye can see a small deviations in a narrow piece and can not see "level" unless it is extremely off.
Work with the building, measure to make the plan come out and use strings and sight lines to make sure you are straight.
The time to level was when building, now you have to use your canvas as it is -and paint the best picture using its landscape. A tight light string, a tape, markers, some nails and a good plan is top priority.
matt_i
Well-known member
I would just add, plan out the way you want the siding laps to "look". In other words in one direction you'll see every seam, in the other direction, it all blends visually together.
I sort of took the idea if I was showing someone my new shop from where we would go in, I wanted the laps to blend away from that point.
One side is near the deck, so I wanted the laps to blend going away if someone was standing out there.
Its a small thing but helps it look good at the end.
There are a few things "underneath" like flashing corners of openings with peel & stick, I used drip-caps made of matching aluminum trim coil, and also put flat sheets at the bottom of J-channels under windows to direct drips back into the "hook" where it can run back out. Have to make sure the "tongues" of any horizontal J-channels get bent over into the vertical channels to guide rainfall.
I made a wooden cutoff "sled" to fit my circular saw, long pieces slide in and are cut squarely to length, I bought Malco's "reverse plywood blade" for the circular saw and a Malco siding snip, classic utility knife, and a Malco punch for the very top piece to slip under utility channel at the top.
I sort of took the idea if I was showing someone my new shop from where we would go in, I wanted the laps to blend away from that point.
One side is near the deck, so I wanted the laps to blend going away if someone was standing out there.
Its a small thing but helps it look good at the end.
There are a few things "underneath" like flashing corners of openings with peel & stick, I used drip-caps made of matching aluminum trim coil, and also put flat sheets at the bottom of J-channels under windows to direct drips back into the "hook" where it can run back out. Have to make sure the "tongues" of any horizontal J-channels get bent over into the vertical channels to guide rainfall.
I made a wooden cutoff "sled" to fit my circular saw, long pieces slide in and are cut squarely to length, I bought Malco's "reverse plywood blade" for the circular saw and a Malco siding snip, classic utility knife, and a Malco punch for the very top piece to slip under utility channel at the top.
6768rogues
Banned
Don't make your overlaps step back because that is the first thing that makes the job look amateurish. Yea, some contractors do it, but that is because they are in a hurry and don't want to take the time to do it to look random. I usually see that on new houses where the builder wants to hire the cheapest help. As the gentleman from Alberta said, stepping it back saves time and energy. I prefer to do a great job even if I have to use a little more time and energy. I took my first siding job in January of 1974, back when it was aluminum siding. That is a real precision product that most of the hacks today could never install.
Last edited:
alwaysFlOoReD
Well-known member
Yep, step pattern is because new construction builders are cheap when it comes to paying subs. Same with 45 degree soffit on cottage roofs corners. If someone wants random and 45's they can pay a little extra for my time and material. And if a homeowner is strapped for cash then a step pattern will save money because of less waste. A piece of siding is $10.00, save 10 pieces overall = $100.00. Nothing to sneeze at.
I used to do aluminum siding on some army bases in B.C. Also did renovations where I had to match into aluminum siding. I learned a lot of tricks tearing down others work. There isn't as much leeway with aluminum, it doesn't stretch tho there are tricks to fudge if needed. Especially when you side over an existing attached gable end garage, trying to make sure the shadow lines line up......
I used to do aluminum siding on some army bases in B.C. Also did renovations where I had to match into aluminum siding. I learned a lot of tricks tearing down others work. There isn't as much leeway with aluminum, it doesn't stretch tho there are tricks to fudge if needed. Especially when you side over an existing attached gable end garage, trying to make sure the shadow lines line up......
Last edited:
6768rogues
Banned
Step back is starting the wall with a 12' piece, then a 10' piece, then an 8' piece and so on. It looks amateur and cheap. A better way is to start the courses with 12' piece, a 6' piece' a 9' piece and a 3' piece and then repeat. It will look random. Of course, you have to measure it out and make sure you don't end up with a piece less than around 20" at the other end, and lay it out so any windows will work into the pattern right. Adjust the pattern to make the ends work out right. It takes a little more thinking and time, but that is what separates and amateur hack job from a real professional looking job. Step back is used to same time and let the installer just do it without thinking about it, and saving time is what cutting corners is all about.
Unless you have big walls with no openings, it will not use more material to do the job without stepping it back. The pieces that are left can be used between windows, between the corner and the garage door, at the other end of the wall, etc. It also take some thinking to decide which wall to start on. Don't start on a wall where you will be cutting full panels to make short pieces; that wall should be done later when you have short pieces to use up. I usually measure the job solid, then deduct 10% for windows and doors, further deduct if there is a large opening like a garage door, and the siding amount will come out with a couple of panels left over to save for the customer if he wants to keep a couple of spares.
Unless you have big walls with no openings, it will not use more material to do the job without stepping it back. The pieces that are left can be used between windows, between the corner and the garage door, at the other end of the wall, etc. It also take some thinking to decide which wall to start on. Don't start on a wall where you will be cutting full panels to make short pieces; that wall should be done later when you have short pieces to use up. I usually measure the job solid, then deduct 10% for windows and doors, further deduct if there is a large opening like a garage door, and the siding amount will come out with a couple of panels left over to save for the customer if he wants to keep a couple of spares.
Last edited:
alwaysFlOoReD
Well-known member
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
I laid out what I thought are good reasons for what I do. You did the same. Step pattern is an aesthetic. And a pro never wastes time, he gets paid for what he does or he doesn't do it for long in the real world. A sign of a true pro is someone that makes it look easy.
I laid out what I thought are good reasons for what I do. You did the same. Step pattern is an aesthetic. And a pro never wastes time, he gets paid for what he does or he doesn't do it for long in the real world. A sign of a true pro is someone that makes it look easy.
Last edited:
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
I'd use a transit or a water level. When we sided my garage and addition, I shot the lines with a transit. With all of the long walls and bumpouts, we were less than 1/4" from far back to far opposite front.
6768rogues
Banned
A real pro is someone who makes it look easy while doing a top quality job. A hack is someone who compromises quality to save time.
He is doing the siding himself. A little extra time will give him a great job too look at for years. Saving a little time and compromising quality will give him something crappy to look at for a long time. Production work for a builder who doesn't want to pay much is something else, that is why the people who are not very skilled do that work. I never did builder work unless the builder was a friend who wanted to pay my price.
Quality work is worth extra money. The competition frequently asked me how I sold jobs for more money than they wanted. I replied that my work was better and people who want quality will pay more.
There are three types of customers.
1. People with lots of money who want the best at any price.
2. People who want quality and are willing to pay for it within reason.
3. People who want the cheapest and fastest work.
I concentrated on types 1 and 2. My competition got type 3, they were not worth the effort that I put in the job.
I always had 6 to 12 months of work booked ahead and people were willing to pay me more and wait for quality. That is how I retired early. My competition is still hanging siding and struggling to make ends meet, never to truly see success. I comfortably retired from siding work after 21 years, turning my business over to my son. Then I went on to a couple of other jobs that were things I always wanted to do. You are still hanging siding and struggling along after 35 years. Will you ever be able to retire?
There are places for both of us in the market. Me with types 1 and 2 customers, you with type 3 and occasionally a type 2. Keep driving those nails in the snow while I am enjoying my summers in NY and wintering at my home in FL.
He is doing the siding himself. A little extra time will give him a great job too look at for years. Saving a little time and compromising quality will give him something crappy to look at for a long time. Production work for a builder who doesn't want to pay much is something else, that is why the people who are not very skilled do that work. I never did builder work unless the builder was a friend who wanted to pay my price.
Quality work is worth extra money. The competition frequently asked me how I sold jobs for more money than they wanted. I replied that my work was better and people who want quality will pay more.
There are three types of customers.
1. People with lots of money who want the best at any price.
2. People who want quality and are willing to pay for it within reason.
3. People who want the cheapest and fastest work.
I concentrated on types 1 and 2. My competition got type 3, they were not worth the effort that I put in the job.
I always had 6 to 12 months of work booked ahead and people were willing to pay me more and wait for quality. That is how I retired early. My competition is still hanging siding and struggling to make ends meet, never to truly see success. I comfortably retired from siding work after 21 years, turning my business over to my son. Then I went on to a couple of other jobs that were things I always wanted to do. You are still hanging siding and struggling along after 35 years. Will you ever be able to retire?
There are places for both of us in the market. Me with types 1 and 2 customers, you with type 3 and occasionally a type 2. Keep driving those nails in the snow while I am enjoying my summers in NY and wintering at my home in FL.
Last edited:
6768rogues
Banned
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
I laid out what I thought are good reasons for what I do. You did the same. Step pattern is an aesthetic. And a pro never wastes time, he gets paid for what he does or he doesn't do it for long in the real world. A sign of a true pro is someone that makes it look easy.
Please don't misunderstand me. I never tried to push a contractor like you out of the market. Contractors like you are what enabled me to sell my work for a higher price. Without you, I would have to work for your wages.
You are correct that the step pattern is an aesthetic. It does not affect longevity or weather tightness, it is aesthetic. My customers cared about aesthetics, so I did not step it back. If all the customer wants is to have someone slap the siding on the house as fast as possible, the step pattern works.
I kept a list of jobs that I noticed my competitors did and a list of my jobs. If someone was on the fence, I would give them the list and tell them to carefully look over their work and my work and then make an informed decision. The ones who cared called me back, the ones who did not were better off getting their work done by the competition because they would not appreciate quality.
A true pro can sell a job for more than his competition based on quality not price.
Last edited:
captain14
Well-known member
Please take some Pictures of the work in progress. I'm interested in following along.
MikeF2316
Well-known member
I'm going to go with the guys that say you want the have the siding match the building more than be level. It's more important for it to look level than actually be level.
And as mentioned, it needs to match going around corners too, or it just doesn't look right.
And when the walls are longer than the pieces of siding, you want to start furthest away from your normal viewing position, the overlaps are less noticeable that way.
And siding is easy. Where you buy it will have an instruction sheet showing the details of the various channels, corners and caps and how it all goes together.
And as mentioned, it needs to match going around corners too, or it just doesn't look right.
And when the walls are longer than the pieces of siding, you want to start furthest away from your normal viewing position, the overlaps are less noticeable that way.
And siding is easy. Where you buy it will have an instruction sheet showing the details of the various channels, corners and caps and how it all goes together.