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Two Post Lift, Premix or mix your own?

firebirdparts

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That is great in theory. In practice, you need a very rigid, and correct, plywood mockup of the lift to make it work. It's well worth it. My point is you can't really get bolts in the floor accurately enough any other way.

I ask my lift manufacturer about it, and they discouraged it, as they test the lift with the wedge anchors and that's what they expect in the field. It's consistent. Nevertheless I feel like I could do better than a wedge anchor armed with nothing more than good sense.
 
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sberry

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It's not a slab in a common garage. It's a slab for a 2 post lift
They mount these to common slabs by the thousands. Common cement poured in a common fashion exceeds the specs the lift people call for. If its poured with low slump it gets even better. Its great you did it better, nothing wrong with that but its certainly not required.
 
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JohnnyK81

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Agree with sberry. Obviously there is nothing wrong with testing, but a 2 post lift isn't exactly considered a high stress application. This is very similar to the standard Car forum discussion of "You need grade 8 bolts for that windshield wiper arm".

Don't get me wrong, better safe than sorry with a lift, but we aren't lifting heavy machinery here.
 

lakeroadster

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Agree with sberry. Obviously there is nothing wrong with testing, but a 2 post lift isn't exactly considered a high stress application. This is very similar to the standard Car forum discussion of "You need grade 8 bolts for that windshield wiper arm".

Don't get me wrong, better safe than sorry with a lift, but we aren't lifting heavy machinery here.

Better safe than sorry.... exactly. You have made the point for testing.

We are talking about lifting machinery with a device designed to lift a specified weight, anchored by fasteners designed to carry a specific weight. The base plate and the fasteners are designed based on the specifications of the capacity of the device and the concrete's ability to hold that device.

On a bigger capacity device it will have a bigger baseplate and either larger diameter or increased quantity of fasteners and perhaps thicker concrete.

So it is all relative. The device is lifting a vehicle overhead and that vehicle is heavy enough to kill you. Some testing is prudent... of the lift itself (ALI Certified), and of the concrete it sits on.

Its great you did it better, nothing wrong with that but its certainly not required.

Testing does nothing to increase the capacity of the product or device. And it doesn't make the concrete you receive "better". All the testing does is verify you got what you paid for and that you are meeting the requirements of the device manufacture.

We see fella's all the time posting photo's and stories here on the GJ of how their newly poured concrete has issues.

Permits require footer inspections, framing inspection, wiring inspections, etc. and you take that in stride. But verification of concrete strength is somehow over the top crazy... even though states and jurisdictions often specify these same tests on a regular basis.

Here we have a valid, industry accepted, way of verification, yet the mere mention of it is considered, by some, as overkill, excessive, better than it needs to be.
 

sberry

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I got to wonder, you recommended 5 samples and 3 post pour tests. What would the 4 other samples tell that the first didn't and what would the one at 56 days tell that the one didn't at 28 days? The mfg recommends 3500 concrete and 4 inches, doesn't call for any rebar. How much better does it have to be?
No one is saying testing is a bad thing but this is confused with projects with vastly different requirements. Its not the "meer mention" of testing that is in question but the thought that a smart educated guy cant tell the difference between all this that makes one wonder.
Not everything someone sees at work, in industry or commercial really applies, its often ones experience that makes it cloudy. Same for a which welder is for me question,, I have seen salesman with absolutely no expertise that consistently get the right machine for customers and experts give poor advice.
I also doubt 5 samples and 3 other tests by an independent company on a 2 yard pour will be "free". If I am not mistaken you are a civil engineer? The experience on a parking garage is different.
The concrete "issues" are mostly due to the installation, issues that can be controlled with a little care. Yes, there are inspections on other things, someone has required them. But a lift company routinely bolts these to existing floors, most or almost none with any inspection and only minimal verification of thickness.
 

GMCGarage

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I got to wonder, you recommended 5 samples and 3 post pour tests. What would the 4 other samples tell that the first didn't and what would the one at 56 days tell that the one didn't at 28 days? The mfg recommends 3500 concrete and 4 inches, doesn't call for any rebar. How much better does it have to be?
No one is saying testing is a bad thing but this is confused with projects with vastly different requirements. Its not the "meer mention" of testing that is in question but the thought that a smart educated guy cant tell the difference between all this that makes one wonder.
Not everything someone sees at work, in industry or commercial really applies, its often ones experience that makes it cloudy. Same for a which welder is for me question,, I have seen salesman with absolutely no expertise that consistently get the right machine for customers and experts give poor advice.
I also doubt 5 samples and 3 other tests by an independent company on a 2 yard pour will be "free". If I am not mistaken you are a civil engineer? The experience on a parking garage is different.
The concrete "issues" are mostly due to the installation, issues that can be controlled with a little care. Yes, there are inspections on other things, someone has required them. But a lift company routinely bolts these to existing floors, most or almost none with any inspection and only minimal verification of thickness.

How do you know you have 3500 psi concrete by looking at it? :dunno:

If for some reason the tests are coming back low, then the additional speciments can be used for extended testing. Most times contractors, etc want the concrete at full strength as quick as possible, so they will do 2-3 tests first few days. If after 7, 14, 28 its not at full strength, then a 56 day can be done. This gives data on the concrete and shows that you have your design strength.

I can live with a sidewalk being untested. But for structural applications, such as a beam, column, slab for a car jack, retaining wall, etc. I would as a customer want to know that my concrete is at design strength.

Its not different than steel, wood, etc. you get mill tests, wood is graded, that way you can design for that strength. Concrete is designed for on an assumed strength, and you test it to verify the capacity.

Again, dont give the man grief for doing it correctly.

Lift companies may do this all the time, but im sure in the instructions its says "3500 psi required", not "3500 psi or what you think is 3500 psi because you poured it yourself and was careful" Its comes down to risk management on their part.
 
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BoostedOne

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A little dramatic here. 1000's of these are bolted to existing floors every day by company installer with no test. None. Don't we think if it was that critical they would insist on it? Not one or 2 of these done this way but 1000's,,, and some more thousands and some more before and after those.

Eh..
It is your life. Can You slap it onto the average sidewalk and it not tip over and kill you? Maybe. Who knows. Sure they get installed by the 1000s.. I doubt the failures are making the evening news or GJ... Especially if it was just a near miss where noone was hurt.

Im just saying his concrete is already cut. Digging down a few more inches is a few hours work to do a thicker slab. Putting in a rebar frame is a few dollars and another hour or two worth of effort. And it costs a few more dollars in concrete. Talking a couple hundred bucks, not thousands of dollars. I wouldnt even consider going to Home Depot and buying a pallet of bags and mixing willy nilly with a buddy.

Im not talking about getting carried away with testing.. Specify 5K, and even if its a little light you still have headroom if its reinforced and extra thick. The thicker the slab means you can use a much longer anchor.

I have a 9K Ben Pearson, from back when they were made in the US.. And I tell you with a ~1 sqaure foot baseplate, putting a crew cab 7.3 F350 on it is a little unnerving, especially when you consider the weight distribution.. You start thinking about the moment arms at play, it makes you think twice if you cut corners on the slab...
 

lakeroadster

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If I am not mistaken you are a civil engineer? The experience on a parking garage is different.

You are indeed mistaken. I am a Mechanical Engineer, since 1983, not that it matters at all in this discussion.

I defer the answers to your other questions to GMCGarage's above post.

So sberry, you've asked me twice in this thread what my qualifications are, and I have answered both times.

Your turn.

What qualifications and experience do you have that enables you to tell if the as poured final strength of concrete, without any testing, meets or exceeds the specifications agreed upon with the concrete contractor?
 
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sberry

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If he hired a "contractor" to pour this it would have went thru without a speed bump. Perfect example of a little too much education for the job at hand. I didn't ask what your qualifications were, I know you are an engineer, that much is obvious.
 

kb1982

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Your pit and rebar looks good, but if the existing concrete is thick enough, I would drill it and insert some rebar horizontally to help tie in the old and new concrete. As far as having it tested, most reputable concrete companies aren't going to send you garbage. Too much of a liability on their end. Im not saying that I havent seen some loads refused and sent back, but that was based visually looking at the mix that it wasn't up to par. I have poured many basements with untested concrete, and not once heard of any issues. If it will hold a house, it will hold a car.
 

sberry

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We see lift failures on here before, usually 1 that gets passed around the net a million times. It's pretty rare and if it was common or frequent we would see it more and they would have a code, it would call for more than simply a 4 inch floor. As matter of fact I do have quite a bit of experience. I am not smart enough to be an engineer, I got a lot of respect for that. I did serve apprenticeship in Ironworkers, my expertise is actually in welding but did work and have the classes in reinforcing. I supervised a lot and been involved in demolition. At one point I thought I was going to work in prestress plant and read every book they had on it in a major city public library, 5 major books including history and several on concrete. I made mistakes on my own in a rush where my finish skills lack and should have waited a bit. Not much to do with strength, mostly smoothness, I had intended on coating and my deal fell thru.
 

sberry

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I am not sure we have seen a pull out here, havnt seen a slab failure as I recall. We saw a couple mechanical, an arm and a truck frame. if it was a regular occurance it would be on here quickly, so much ******** about this it wouldn't be hidden.
This reminds me a bit of the 15A recept and switch discussion, the whole industry that follows this generally accepted practice must be stupid? They must have been waiting for a couple guys to come along on the internet to straighten them all out?
 

sberry

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I do have a question, don't recall if I ever asked or knew but what effect does psi have on anchor bolt pull out and where is the general threshold? I spose it's in the Hilti or other data?
I was on a nuke where there were hundreds of thousands. it was early in my career, not sure what the conc test was but on occasion could snap a small Hilti if one tried.
 

sberry

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I know in prestress work under ideal conditions, mix, pour, slump and cure it can reach 30k lbs. It's easy to hit 4 or 5 in a common garage pour and then a sample may not be truely reflective of other conditions, it only tells the mix.
 

lakeroadster

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Where did you learn to do this work?


... I didn't ask what your qualifications were...


If he hired a "contractor" to pour this it would have went thru without a speed bump.

Laughable.

Some contractor's are good, some aren't. Actually when it comes to concrete flat work, many are absolutely horrible.

The guy getting a "common slab" doesn't know the difference.
 

rnscustom

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Ok , lots of questions on the strength of the concrete here but none on the slab . What is the 4x7 section in the middle doing , suppose to stop the ends from pulling up . Especially with a couple control joints ?? I would have poured at least two 4'x4'x2' slabs pinned to the existing with a rebar cage / bolts welded to . But my choice would be 5x5x2' and for your pout I would want it tested . And would definitely pin it to the surrounding floor
 

GMCGarage

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Laughable.

Some contractor's are good, some aren't. Actually when it comes to concrete flat work, many are absolutely horrible.

The guy getting a "common slab" doesn't know the difference.

you can see why he has 23K posts! :shocking:
 
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GMCGarage

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Ok , lots of questions on the strength of the concrete here but none on the slab . What is the 4x7 section in the middle doing , suppose to stop the ends from pulling up . Especially with a couple control joints ?? I would have poured at least two 4'x4'x2' slabs pinned to the existing with a rebar cage / bolts welded to . But my choice would be 5x5x2' and for your pout I would want it tested . And would definitely pin it to the surrounding floor

I looked into the requirements for lifts, no manufacture gives a "size" of slab needed for a two post lift. they only give thickness. In a perfect world, you are balancing the vehicle on the lift, and thus should have no bending towards the front or rear of the vehicle. To the sides, the posts would want to tilt inwards, and thus having a continuous slab as he shows distributes the load nicely.

I agree with you, having the concrete tested is a given. Owner could buy his own cylinders, fill and cure them in his garage, and im sure the local ready mix plant or testing facility would test them cheaper than sending a guy out to collect the samples.
 

sberry

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Since it's a given why isn't it in the instructions? How do we know the anchor bolt is good? Especially on units with only 4 bolts? How are we sure the installer uses the correct ones? That he cleans the holes or gets the correct depth. Not even simple inspection on this, doesn't even require installer certification, many done with little or no experience. If it was they fussy there would be more stringent space other than size and thickness. I spose that logic is too simple.
 

Diesel Dan

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For safetys sake I hope it's not a Chinese lift.:willy_nil:shocking:

Best wishes OP, hope you hang around after running this gauntlet. :)
 

rnscustom

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10" to me would be the ideal slab thickness . That would be the entire floor space , this is only 4' wide . Ideally all the force is downward but it's not always , so a safety factor has to be added for the stupid mistakes we all make . In searching for a ****** guy to do a special job I ran across a guy that just had a Chinese lift installed ( this is not about the lift ) . It was installed by the suppliers contractor . The slab failed and collapsed on a customers truck ,why is also not my point . Suggested by the installer was 2- 5'x5'x2' slabs with the bolt cages . Also don't forget you are probably looking to get this thing right up and in use . The concrete so thin and without the cage I wouldn't trust unless it cured a year . With the cage and the big block of concrete your good to go pretty quickly
 

ard

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While we are on the topic....

I am planning on doing the same- cut out, excavate, repour.

However, I am keenly intrested in setting J bolts into the concrete to anchor the lift.

I would make a perfect plywood template, so the bolts would be held at precisely the right location and perfectly vertical. And Id link both posts to their relative positions would likewise be located.

I know lift vendors dont recommend, but for the life of me, dont understand why. Yes, if someone screws up, it becomes very complex to fix. BUT, assuming I am OK with the risk, why not?

Is there any technical or engineering reason a (high quality) J bolt, or 12, integrated into the rebar mesh/cage would not be equal or superior??
 

lakeroadster

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Is there any technical or engineering reason a (high quality) J bolt, or 12, integrated into the rebar mesh/cage would not be equal or superior??

A J-bolt doesn't adhere to the concrete for it's full diameter. It places a point load on the concrete in the J portion only.

Totally different loading pattern compared to a mechanical anchor or an epoxy anchor.

No need to re-invent the wheel. Do what the lift manufacturer recommends.
 

GMCGarage

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Since it's a given why isn't it in the instructions? How do we know the anchor bolt is good? Especially on units with only 4 bolts? How are we sure the installer uses the correct ones? That he cleans the holes or gets the correct depth. Not even simple inspection on this, doesn't even require installer certification, many done with little or no experience. If it was they fussy there would be more stringent space other than size and thickness. I spose that logic is too simple.

Why are you so against this man doing it the way he wants? You have made your points, but now you are hammering this post just to get your way? Every other part of the lift, the steel, the anchors, the welds, have some sort of test or material spec in place, but since this guy wants the concrete to have the same tests, you are hell bent against?
 

GMCGarage

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A J-bolt doesn't adhere to the concrete for it's full diameter. It places a point load on the concrete in the J portion only.

Totally different loading pattern compared to a mechanical anchor or an epoxy anchor.

No need to re-invent the wheel. Do what the lift manufacturer recommends.

This, J bolts are not used that much anymore, a long bolt would be better, or threaded rod and nut.

Most times unless you have a precise template, you are screwed if it doenst fit. Make sure you make the template of the actual lift you install, just in case it is built wrong too.
 

sberry

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but since this guy wants the concrete to have the same tests, you are hell bent against?
I am not bent against it. What my point was is that it is not required, the OP hadn't even considered a test to start with. They we get an almost insistence that everyone who doesn't do 8 tests and 5 samples is an idiot for a job where the company that makes the thing doesn't even bother. How did they ever make it till you came along? You are too smart for this kind of work.
 
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ard

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This, J bolts are not used that much anymore, a long bolt would be better, or threaded rod and nut.

Most times unless you have a precise template, you are screwed if it doenst fit. Make sure you make the template of the actual lift you install, just in case it is built wrong too.

Ive read up on loading J bolts, L bolts and threaded rods with 3/8" thick square plates w/retaining nut mounted within a rebar cage....

Yes, the template would be made using the actual lift on site.

We shall see. I'll do a standalone post when I do it....
 
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cthulu

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Well guys, two small trucks came and dumped about 2.5 yards total. We finished the cement and it's drying now.

I called the guys over at http://equipmentsalescoinc.com/ inquiring on the price of a new RTP9 and they happened to have a used one for sale that appears to not have done much. No nicks, dings or other abuse..and it was 1300$ off sticker. Needless to say I pulled the trigger, they are going to install in about a month! Until then it sits in my garage taunting me!
 

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lakeroadster

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Well guys, two small trucks came and dumped about 2.5 yards total. We finished the cement and it's drying now.

I called the guys over at http://equipmentsalescoinc.com/ inquiring on the price of a new RTP9 and they happened to have a used one for sale that appears to not have done much. No nicks, dings or other abuse..and it was 1300$ off sticker. Needless to say I pulled the trigger, they are going to install in about a month! Until then it sits in my garage taunting me!

Progress is a good thing.

So I'm guessing you didn't do samples for testing.. :dunno:
 
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cthulu

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So I'm guessing you didn't do samples for testing.. :dunno:

I was really on the fence about it, ended up being close to 350$ to have someone come out and test so I opted out but I did take a sample of the concrete and put it in a piece of PVC I had lying around it should be pretty close in size to the specs below. I figure I can run that out to a lab when I'm closer to 28 days and it should be a lot cheaper that way.

https://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/34p.pdf
 

sberry

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You may have been able to get a deal with multiple samples, say 300 a piece if you took 5 of them? Did you ask about that? Instead of 1750$ it may have got closer to 1500.
 

lakeroadster

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I was really on the fence about it, ended up being close to 350$ to have someone come out and test so I opted out but I did take a sample of the concrete and put it in a piece of PVC I had lying around it should be pretty close in size to the specs below. I figure I can run that out to a lab when I'm closer to 28 days and it should be a lot cheaper that way.

https://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/34p.pdf

Thanks for posting the link, very interesting. Be sure and let us know how the test comes out.

Revolution RTP9.. That is one beefy looking lift! I looked them up on ALI's website.. their RTP9E000 is ALI certified. Is that the same model lift you have?

Good luck to you on your project. :thumbup:
 
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cthulu

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Revolution RTP9.. That is one beefy looking lift! I looked them up on ALI's website.. their RTP9E000 is ALI certified. Is that the same model lift you have?

:

I'll have to grab the exact PN#, It's the RTP9 something and has a big ol' ALI certified sticker on the side. I'll get a picture of it up here today.
 
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