Feeding Garage, Pole Barn & Sub in Basement

[jim1450]

Trying to gather up the correct stuff for my projects so I'm looking for some suggestions on what to use.
Existing detached garage has 10 NM in PVC that I want to replace with correctly fed 40 amp service from a 100 amp sub to be installed in the basement.
New pole barn being built in Nov/Dec I'd like to run 60 amps to from my main panel.
House has a 200 amp main, have a 100 sub to add about 15' from the main for the garage 40 amps & 60 amp water heater.
I ordered 2 https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/circuit-protection-distribution/main-breaker-load-centers/square-d-trade-homeline-trade-100-amp-20-space-indoor-main-breaker-value-pk/p-1444444027912-c-6437.htm?tid=-3537758112357886712&ipos=3 for the garage & barn, both runs should be under 75'
I have 8 NM to run in my basement for the garage & will use 8 UF from the house to the garage.

No way to use conduit to feed the 100 amp sub or from the main to where the pole barn feed exits through the wall.

So my questions are about feeding without conduit.
1 What's the easiest way to feed 100 amps to the sub?
2 What can I use for the 60 amps to the pole barn from the main to where it exits the house?

 

[pattenp]

1 What's the easiest way to feed 100 amps to the sub?
Use 3-3-3-5 Cu SER or 1-1-1-3 Al SER if inside or outside when above ground.

2 What can I use for the 60 amps to the pole barn from the main to where it exits the house?
#6/3 UF can be use for the complete run, inside and outside.



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[wyliesdiesels]

1 What's the easiest way to feed 100 amps to the sub?
Use 3-3-3-5 Al SER if inside or outside when above ground.

2 What can I use for the 60 amps to the pole barn from the main to where it exits the house?
#6/3 UF can be use for the complete run, inside and outside.

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#3 al is too small for 100a....

 

[jim1450]

1 What's the easiest way to feed 100 amps to the sub?
Use 3-3-3-5 Al SER if inside or outside when above ground.

2 What can I use for the 60 amps to the pole barn from the main to where it exits the house?
#6/3 UF can be use for the complete run, inside and outside.



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Thanks
100 amp sub will be in the basement & probably, less than 15' from the main panel, from what I remember regular nm/romex is rated @ 95 amps & I thought there's other cables that are good for 100 that doesn't need to be in conduit.

I thought 6 UF is only rated @ 55 amps, Sat I had a roll in my cart but wasn't sure. I was thinking about running pvc & pulling #6 & was kind of thinking there might be a some other 60 amp cable to run inside that didn't need to be in conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks
100 sub will be in the basement & probably, less than 15' from the main panel, from what I remembered regular nm/romex is rated @ 95 amps & I thought there's other cables that are good for 100 that don't need to be in conduit.

I thought 6 UF is only rated @ 55 amps, Sat I had a roll in my cart but wasn't sure. I was thinking about running pvc & pulling #6 & was kind of thinking there might be a some other 60 amp cable to run inside that didn't need to be in conduit.

#1 al is rated for 100a so you could use SER for that portion. SER doesnt need to be in conduit as long its not subject to damage. Also, if its not run through insulation for more than about 10% of its length, you can breaker at full ampacity. Otherwise, breaker size should be reduced.

#6/3 UF-B IS rated for 55a but that is not a standard breaker size so you can go up to the nect size as long as your load does not go over 55a.

 

[pattenp]

#3 al is too small for 100a....

Yep.. that was a mistake, meant Cu. Or 1-1-1-3 Al SER

 

[jim1450]

#1 al is rated for 100a so you could use SER for that portion. SER doesnt need to be in conduit as long its not subject to damage. Also, if its not run through insulation for more than about 10% of its length, you can breaker at full ampacity. Otherwise, breaker size should be reduced.

#6/3 UF-B IS rated for 55a but that is not a standard breaker size so you can go up to the nect size as long as your load does not go over 55a.

It's going to be a 10' 32x48 & I'd like 60 amp & that's a lot less than my original plan which was to have First Energy run a 200 amp drop to it but they said monthly meter charge/rental is $35 on top of my usage.
I have a 210 amp Everlast tig welder, plan on a lift, fridge & maybe a small tankless water heater so I'm a little concerned about tripping the breaker.

I'll have to run it under my 14' wide concrete driveway, not sure how that's going to happen but my next door neighbor owns an excavating company & prepping my lot so I hope he can do it.
Since it's running under the drive I figured it would be good idea to run pvc under the concrete & I might as well make the entire run in pvc.
What would #6 THWN rated for used like that & would it be a good choice?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yep.. that was a mistake, meant Cu. Or 1-1-1-3 Al SER

Yeah i knew it was a typo just didnt want OP to get wrong wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's going to be a 10' 32x48 & I'd like 60 amp & that's a lot less than my original plan which was to have First Energy run a 200 amp drop to it but they said monthly meter charge/rental is $35 on top of my usage.
I have a 210 amp Everlast tig welder, plan on a lift, fridge & maybe a small tankless water heater so I'm a little concerned about tripping the breaker.

I'll have to run it under my 14' wide concrete driveway, not sure how that's going to happen but my next door neighbor owns an excavating company & prepping my lot so I hope he can do it.
Since it's running under the drive I figured it would be good idea to run pvc under the concrete & I might as well make the entire run in pvc.
What would #6 THWN rated for used like that & would it be a good choice?

Not sure which model you are getting but the 210ext has max input of 31a.

The #6 THWN wont net you much more ampacity over the #6 uf.

And #2 al MHF will be a lot cheaper than either #6.

Since youve decided to run conduit the whole length, might as well use MHF which needs to be in conduit indoors.

 

[pattenp]

Since you've decided to run conduit the whole length, might as well use MHF which needs to be in conduit indoors.

Agreed..

 

[pattenp]

Yeah i knew it was a typo just didnt want OP to get wrong wire.

Actually it was a brain fart. My fingers typed exactly what was in my head.

 

[jim1450]

Not sure which model you are getting but the 210ext has max input of 31a.

The #6 THWN wont net you much more ampacity over the #6 uf.

And #2 al MHF will be a lot cheaper than either #6.

Since youve decided to run conduit the whole length, might as well use MHF which needs to be in conduit indoors.

Only running the pvc outside, there's no way I can use any conduit inside so I guess that rules out MHF.
Yeah I have the 210 EXT & a Power i-MIG 140E, I figure with all the lower amp stuff on & maybe 2 or 3 of the higher loads draw @ the same time could be a problem.
I think the lower amp tankless heaters are 40 amps & I thought lifts need a 30 amp breaker, I don't think by myself I could draw enough to trip a 60 amp but if someone else was working with me I imagine it could happen.

 

[pattenp]

Can use 2-2-2-4 Al SER inside and change over to 2-2-2-4 MHF via a junction box. Breaker at 60A, up to 90A.

 

[jim1450]

Can use 2-2-2-4 Al SER inside and change over to 2-2-2-4 MHF via a junction box. Breaker at 60A, up to 90A.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-By-the-Foot-2-2-2-4-Gray-Stranded-Al-SER-Cable-13102999/205001908
Says ok for wet.
So if I'm using pvc from house to barn can I do the entire run with it?
That seems like the cheapest easiest way & it would give me more amps.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheetOEM46
For the panel in the barn the 75° 90 amps?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-By-the-Foot-2-2-2-4-Gray-Stranded-Al-SER-Cable-13102999/205001908
Says ok for wet.
So if I'm using pvc from house to barn can I do the entire run with it?
That seems like the cheapest easiest way & it would give me more amps.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheetOEM46
For the panel in the barn the 75° 90 amps?

Unfortunately, SER can only be used in wet locations above ground.

Use MHF outside and SER inside.

Yeah will not be enough with the tankless heater and TIG running.

The lift, while it may need a 30a breaker, wont draw that much. Breakers for motor circuits are oversized to prevent nuissance tripping.

 

[jim1450]

Unfortunately, SER can only be used in wet locations above ground.

Use MHF outside and SER inside.

Got it, thanks.
What's the best way to connect the SER & MHF?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Got it, thanks.
What's the best way to connect the SER & MHF?

insulated tap connectors, split bolts or terminals blocks.

Burndy makes both tap connectors and split bolts

Polaris makes tap connectors.

Make sure to get a large enough box for splicing

 

[jim1450]

insulated tap connectors, split bolts or terminals blocks.

Burndy makes both tap connectors and split bolts

Polaris makes tap connectors.

Make sure to get a large enough box for splicing

OK
Is some kind of anti oxidant paste needed?
When I had my service changed to 200 amp the electrician ran al from the meter to the panel & used some paste on it, told me it's needed on al.

For the run from the main panel to the sub I have a Square D Homeline main panel, says wire #8-2 so I'm guessing it rules out aluminum.
https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/circuit-protection-distribution/circuit-breakers/square-d-trade-homeline-trade-100-amp-120-240-v-2-pole-residential-circuit-breaker/p-1444444030713-c-1489583170892.htm?tid=-4239370222033633566&ipos=1

Use 3-3-3-5 copper & the 75° column?
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet274

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No-alox is only needed if the wire manufacturer calls for it.

The more important thing is that the lugs are properly torqued to spec.

If the breaker lug is max #2 wire, then you cant do 100a with al.

 

[jim1450]

No-alox is only needed if the wire manufacturer calls for it.

The more important thing is that the lugs are properly torqued to spec.

If the breaker lug is max #2 wire, then you cant do 100a with al.

Thanks again.
Is the Southwire copper 3-3-3-5 good for a full 100 amps for the 100 amp sub inside by the main panel?

Up until when the plant closed the end of Jan I was a tool & die @ a former GM Delphi plant, still not working so I'm trying to do as much as I can myself but before I do all the connections I'll get 1 of the electricians I worked with to stop by & check it. Electricians are in high demand here & I assume probably almost everywhere so they're all working but some do side jobs.

 

[pattenp]

The Southwire copper 3-3-3-5 SER is good for a full 100 amps as long as it's not buried within insulation.

To add to the splice list, Splice/Reducers can be used to splice the SER and MHF together. Need to tape them up well to insulate.



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[wcp0611]

I believe wiring questions are my favorite on here. Guys get so worked up on other people's answers. I like to sit back and watch the poop storm.

 

[pattenp]

I believe wiring questions are my favorite on here. Guys get so worked up on other people's answers. I like to sit back and watch the poop storm.

So who's all worked up?

 

[jim1450]

The Southwire copper 3-3-3-5 SER is good for a full 100 amps as long as it's not buried within insulation.

To add to the splice list, Splice/Reducers can be used to splice the SER and MHF together. Need to tape them up well to insulate.



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Thanks,
I was looking @ my main panel, left side is pretty much full & everything I asked about will be on the left & the top is a little cramped (short basement) so I was thinking about moving my dryer circuit to the right & running 1 1/4" flexible conduit across the block wall.
I might be able to run flexible for the barn from the main panel to where the pvc starts & run THWN the entire length.

 

[jim1450]

Yesterday I ordered some 1 1/4" FMC & bought #3 THHN for the 100 amp subpanel, got it @ Menards.
I was looking @ the other wire they carry, no THWN but they have RHW-2.
Since I'll have plenty of FMC left over I might try to use it for the barn from the main panel to where the run exits the house & do the entire run in THWN.

What's the difference between THWN & RHW-2?

 

[pattenp]

What's the difference between THWN & RHW-2?

Main thing for you is RHW-2 has thicker insulation than THWN and will reduce the number of conductors compared to THWN that can be placed in same size conduit.



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[jim1450]

RHW-2 has thicker insulation than THWN and will reduce the number of conductors compared to THWN that can be placed in conduit.

So I'm guessing the THWN is easier to work with.
Use the 90°column for RHW-2 & the 75° for THWN?

 

[pattenp]

So I'm guessing the THWN is easier to work with.
Use the 90°column for RHW-2 & the 75° for THWN?

Use 75 deg.C for both. 90 is only used when adjusting ampacities for derating.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks,
I was looking @ my main panel, left side is pretty much full & everything I asked about will be on the left & the top is a little cramped (short basement) so I was thinking about moving my dryer circuit to the right & running 1 1/4" flexible conduit across the block wall.
I might be able to run flexible for the barn from the main panel to where the pvc starts & run THWN the entire length.

IMPO the small addl cost of SER will be balanced out by the labor involved in using FMC/greenfield.

Less work to just use SER.....

Yesterday I ordered some 1 1/4" FMC & bought #3 THHN for the 100 amp subpanel, got it @ Menards.
I was looking @ the other wire they carry, no THWN but they have RHW-2.
Since I'll have plenty of FMC left over I might try to use it for the barn from the main panel to where the run exits the house & do the entire run in THWN.

What's the difference between THWN & RHW-2?

Hopefully you realized that the 4th wire, which is the grounding conductor/EGC, can be smaller. For up to 100a, you can use #8 cu or #6 al....

 

[jim1450]

IMPO the small addl cost of SER will be balanced out by the labor involved in using FMC/greenfield.

Less work to just use SER.....



Hopefully you realized that the 4th wire, which is the grounding conductor/EGC, can be smaller. For up to 100a, you can use #8 cu or #6 al....

Menards or Lowes didn't have #3 copper SER, I knew about the smaller ground & Menards didn't have it either, I'll have to find it someplace else.
I live in a small rural vacation town, all the stores here are much smaller than the stores in the Cleveland area but Cleveland doesn't have Menards yet