firesafe

[Dagny]

How realistic is it to expect documents to survive a house fire inside a safe?

It's a Liberty Franklin with a 90 min rating and has some cool pockets on the door.

 

[Chaznsc]

Probably good survival chances, but I would always scan any document to PDF or TIFF for archival. Than make sure that's backed up.

 

[rlitman]

90 minute rating of a UL Class 350 safe means that the interior of the safe will stay below the autoignition temperature of paper when directly exposed to fire. So paper inside will not be charred, ASSUMING nothing else inside is susceptible to the elevated temperatures.

I'd expect thermally printed recepits for example to come out black. Plastic would melt. Digital media would likely be destroyed.

But if you're just looking to keep paper documents in readable (though they will be pretty well steamed) condition, you should be fine.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I would *highly* recommend getting like some ammo cans or something else that are air tight to put your documents in, inside the safe.

Reason being is when there is a fire, that safe will heat up. When the FD comes in and sprays everything down, the rapid cooling will **** in smoke and water and soot will coat everything inside the safe. I've seen it countless times on firearms that had to be totally refinished.

If at all possible as a backup I would scan whatever important documents to PDF, then back them up online to like DropBox or OneDrive or Google Drive... That way you have an extra copy, just in case.

 

[ar2stp48]

I will also suggest a small container for your documents; a Sentry fire resistant box will give you added protection at little expense and will fit easily on a shelf in the Liberty

Liberty is a good "safe"; they like most other brands rely on sheet rock for their fire protection. It is ok, but there are seams where it was fitted into cabinet and door; seams = reduced protection

Where will you be placing the safe in house and room it will occupy? Place it on an outside wall if possible

 

[slimpickins]

90 minute rating of a UL Class 350 safe means that the interior of the safe will stay below the autoignition temperature of paper when directly exposed to fire. So paper inside will not be charred, ASSUMING nothing else inside is susceptible to the elevated temperatures.

I'd expect thermally printed recepits for example to come out black. Plastic would melt. Digital media would likely be destroyed.

But if you're just looking to keep paper documents in readable (though they will be pretty well steamed) condition, you should be fine.

^^This! AND the previous advice about keeping digital copies of all important documents. Use the 3-2-1 Backup strategy (https://www.backblaze.com/blog/the-3-2-1-backup-strategy/). Fire safes are designed to release water (steam) into the safe as part of the preservation for documents. You can put documents in a plastic bag to protect them from water/steam, but check the melting temp of the plastic bags because if they melt, the document could also be compromised that way.

For documents and media preservation, if your safe is big enough, put your documents inside a plastic bag, or if you're REALLY serious, a document protection bag like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072C7HYZG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Then put that in document safe like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GE586CY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

And if your Liberty Franklin is big enough, put that inside your Liberty Franklin.

Also, Never open a hot safe. The contents inside may be above the ignition temp but are preserved because of the lack of oxygen. Open the safe and ****, they will auto-ignite and you can watch your documents that survived the fire inside the safe, burn before your eyes.

It's very informative to google "opening a safe after a fire" - check out the pics and some YouTube videos.

 

[rayra]

seconding the box in a box idea. Likewise have one of those small blue-clad Sentry concrete suitcase things, 8-1/2x11 just fits without folding. Got an external USB backup drive that a I rotate in there, some USB sticks, our passports and other key identity stuff in it, inside the burn-rated safe / RSC.

I lay it flat on the floor of the safe, helps my shorter rifles reach the racks. And the floor will be the coolest.

Also seconding the scanning of key documents.

Some safes have a door seal that expands in a fire, swells and seal the door against heat and water. Don' tknow if there are retrofit kits to add this sort of thing to other cabinets. Worth looking into.

 

[Dagny]

Thanks a lot guys I like the safe in a safe idea.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Also, if you have some more valuable / rare guns, it is worth getting some sort of soft-case or something to protect them. Otherwise it could be a tidy sum to get them re-finished and cleaned and they still would probably never look the same.

 

[DCarr2]

Another thought on water intrusion, If the safe is in a room, and falls through the floor into the basement... will it allow water into the safe? Granted heat rises, though if the safe is already in the basement....

I have seen a few basements full of water after a house fire.... something to think about.

 

[OH_Varmntr]

Anything short of a safe with poured fill in the wall cavities won't end well in a fire to their "rating".

Safes with legit fire protection ratings protect the items inside by releasing moisture from the fill inside the walls. This moisture is steam at those temps and fills the inside of the safe to keep internal temps manageable. I believe usually a 350 degree rating. The expanding door seals aren't meant for keeping smoke and fire out, they're meant for keeping steam in!

Drywall doesn't have near the ability to hold moisture like a poured fill does. If you do some research on poured fill in fire-rates gun safes, you'll quickly realize those X-minute fire "ratings" on most cheap gypsum lined safes are nothing more than advertising gimmicks.

At the very minimum you should place documents in heavy ziplock bags then place them inside microwaveable plastic containers.

Specifically, the Liberty Franklin is gypsum lined. Notice how in security ratings, the current specs on their site show a UL RSC rating (residential security container) but in the fire rating is gives no such UL or ETL listing? It's because it would need to withstand a fire for that long and maintain an internal temp of no more than 350. It says it's got a 75 minute rating but neither the UL or ETL offer a 75 minute rating. That would mean they probably had it tested but when it failed the 90 minute ETL test, they gave it their own rating of however long it lasted while maintaining an internal temp of <350. Or they never had it tested at all.

 

[ard]

Many fireproof safes will use a alum or gypsum hydrate material in the walls that release moisture as they heat, this moisture improves the protection rating. However the moisture (as noted above) can damage contents. (So it might not be fire fighters causing internal moisture damage)

 

[SuperCat]

Perhaps a better solution is to keep your valuable documents in a safe deposit box at your local bank or credit union. Not only do they have fire detection/suppression systems, the possibility of theft is greatly reduced.

I don't want to derail this thread, but consumer/home safes are very easy to break into. Please take a few minutes and watch these two videos. The first one has a demonstration of how to open a large home safe with a $10 Harbor Freight angle grinder. The second one is an interview with a locksmith that shows a demonstration of how to open a very common Sentry Fire Safe with a magnet in a few seconds. These are not new videos, but you will be surprised.

 

[tapered-pin]

depending on the temperature and burn time, there's a good chance that the paper will be reduced to flakes.

if you're really concerned about a safe maintaining a document preservation temperature, install a domestic fire sprinkler head off a cold water pipe in the room directly above the safe.

while you can't install a full home residential system without a license and engineered plans, a single head over a furnace or in this case a safe WILL be acceptable by most jurisdictions (actually required in many over a furnace).

 

[atthebeach]

My son had a break-in and the thieves found his fire safe on the floor of his bedroom closet. They took the whole safe and not much else. It contained little of value, but a lot of important papers.....pink slips, passports, birth certificates, etc.

A fire safe needs to be located where thieves won't find it.

 

[ItsNemo]

Despite the limitations, some protection is better than none when it comes to fire/water...so if all you can spend is $100 on a small safe, do it. Better than them being in a dresser drawer.

 

[bczygan]

Luckily I don't have any important documents.

But if I did, I would locate them in a separate fireproof structure that is camouflaged to look like something innocuous. It would be protected from fire, flood, tornado and theft.

Bill

 

[NUTTSGT]

Fortunately Liberty was smart enough to place the Cool Pockets at the bottom of the door, which will see the coolest temperatures during a structure fire. As most of you know and remember when you are taught fire safety during grade school, about staying low and crawling out if you have a fire at home. These temps can be several hundred degrees cooler at the floor rather ceiling level or even at head level.

I also have a Liberty built safe with Cool Pockets and with the experience I have in the last 17 plus years, I believe paperwork would survive better than most might think. However, redundant back ups or having a safety deposit box at your local bank is a very good idea.

There are vary degrees (no pun intended) of having a house fire. They can range from a simple room and contents fire to a full house fire and leave not much more than a foundation. Living in an area with good fire protection can (but not always) have the best results and simply put "smoke detectors save lives" by early detection. Early detection also means the big red truck shows up sooner to put out the flames.

Just a few days ago I mentioned this in a different gun safe thread. If you have a safe of any type, let the OIC know, especially if it is a gun safe or ammo locker. They can concentrate a water stream in the area in an attempt to protect your valuables. If you have it upstairs, let them know as nobody wants to work under a 500-1000lb safe in a weakened structure.

 

[EOC_Jason]

My son had a break-in and the thieves found his fire safe on the floor of his bedroom closet. They took the whole safe and not much else. It contained little of value, but a lot of important papers.....pink slips, passports, birth certificates, etc.

A fire safe needs to be located where thieves won't find it.

It should be lag bolted to the ground... No matter how big or small it is... That prevents it from walking off... A thief will give it a good bump with their shoulder and if it doesn't budge they move on looking for other valuables. Also it is worthwhile to make the sides as inaccessible as possible, like putting in a corner is good, but having both sides (and back) blocked off is even better.

 

[Turbo900rr]

Is a floor safe an option for paperwork? 5 of 6 sides would be insulated from heat, if you actually install it in earth.

 

[oldironfarmer]

while you can't install a full home residential system without a license and engineered plans,

I'm intrigued by that statement. Surely anyone can legally install a full home residential fire protection system, if they aren't licensed and it is not engineered then it would not meet the requirements of such a system. But you could still install the system for your own use so long as you weren't required by a jurisdiction to install a legal system.

Are there restrictions some places against installing a sprinkler system, which is not legally required, and which does not meet code requirements?