Other 120V Circuits trip when welding

[600SL]

Hello

I have recently purchased a Lincoln Power MIG 210 welder. So far this has only happened twice but it happened on two different 120V circuits not connected to the 240V welding circuit.

My welder is feed by a 110 AMP sub panel off the main 200 AMP panel. I have two separate 120V lines that connect to the main 200 AMP panel. Both of these lines eventually run in the vicinity of the welding sub panel but have nothing to do with it otherwise. The two 120V lines are run through a common conduit. The circuit breakers for the 120V lines are GFIC type.

I have never seen either of these lines trip a breaker until now and both occurrences occurred during welding. At the time One circuit was loaded with 300W DC power supply. The next time it happened the circuit running my computers was tripped.

Is this some kind of rare coincidence or is there something I should look for.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is this in an attached or detached garage?

Is there any equipment used by the welder that is plugged into these 120v outlets?

 

[PCustoms]

I also have a power Mig 210. Didnt have the 240v circuit wired into the old panel and had to do some welding, so plugged it into 120v outlet (GFCI protected).

It would trip the GFCI in the kitchen. Coffee grinder that was plugged in to that outlet died too. At the same time I burned out a fan plugged in in the living room circuit.

Can't remember how any of those were wired, except for the kitchen and oulet i had the welder on were both new. I did find the nuetral in the panel was pretty loose. Have since replaced the panel, but not used the welder.

 

[mrdesaussure]

Bizarrely, when I plugged the same welder into my 120v GFCI protected outlets in my garage, it would trip the GFCI as soon as I started welding, if I had the welder plugged into either an extremely thick extension cord pluged directly into the oulet, or directly into the outlet.

If I ran it further away from the outlet, or behind I never again had issues tripping GFCI.

 

[American Locomotive]

600SL, are you sure they're GFCI breakers and not AFCI breakers?

 

[Dagny]

Sounds like you have some resistance in the neutral before the 200 amp panel check meter and other connections back to transformer.

 

[600SL]

Is this in an attached or detached garage?

Is there any equipment used by the welder that is plugged into these 120v outlets?

This is in a detached Garage. The garage has its own meter and is not attached to the house.

Nothing is used by the welder itself But the 300W DC power supply was on the steel welding table in use at the time powering a 100W LED light.

Ground wise everything is connected. Metal building, metal walls, EMT conduit and metal boxes. Metal welding table may or may not be touching the metal walls or making contact through the paint. Would a ground strap be appropriate here.

 

[manwithtools]

The only thing that comes immediately to mind is if those 120 volt circuits are in the same conduit or travel in close parallel proximity to the 240 lines that feed the welder sub-panel, then you "might" have some current induced into the 120 neutral lines on the the GFCI circuits. Welders have some pretty crappy transformers and circuitry and can produce some nasty EMI and I suspect could create some inductance on the supply conductors.

A GFCI compares the current flowing through the hot and the neutral lines and if there is a current difference of approximately 5 ma, it trips. With enough inductance from the welder, it could create current on the neutral that has nothing to do with the items plugged into the 120 volt circuits.

It would not surprise me at all, if that's the problem. If you Google "Welder trips GFCI", you'll find out you are not the first to experience this with with a welder or plasma cutter.

Also, you could replace the GFCI's and the problem "might" go away....

 

[600SL]

600SL, are you sure they're GFCI breakers and not AFCI breakers?

Not sure how would I tell. I certainly bought them with the intent on being GFIC to pass inspection but??? Attached are come pictures.

1) GFIC breakers?
2) Main panel with me pointing to the 240 V 110A sub panel breaker.
3) Sub panel with effected outlet in vicinity panel and welder.

 

[manwithtools]

Ground strap to welding table might help, might not. Welder ground lead should create return path to the panel as long as what you are welding is touching the table, but that is an iffy connection.

 

[600SL]

The only thing that comes immediately to mind is if those 120 volt circuits are in the same conduit or travel in close parallel proximity to the 240 lines that feed the welder sub-panel, then you "might" have some current induced into the 120 neutral lines on the the GFCI circuits. Welders have some pretty crappy transformers and circuitry and can produce some nasty EMI and I suspect could create some inductance on the supply conductors.

A GFCI compares the current flowing through the hot and the neutral lines and if there is a current difference of approximately 5 ma, it trips. With enough inductance from the welder, it could create current on the neutral

It would not surprise me at all, if that's the problem. If you Google "Welder trips GFCI", you'll find out you are not the first to experience this with with a welder or plasma cutter.

Also, you could replace the GFCI's and the problem "might" go away....

Interesting thanks for the heads up. So it sounds like the GFIC is causing the trip and not a short circuit. Sound like I could replace all my outlets with GFIC outlets and then replace the breakers with standard ones. At least that my keep the line alive and I could plug my computer in to an outlet further away.

 

[600SL]

Ground strap to welding table might help, might not. Welder ground lead should create return path to the panel as long as what you are welding is touching the table, but that is an iffy connection.

Sound like an easy first step. How many times Have I forgot to put the ground onto the part and found my part spot welded to the table??. Might not kelp in that situation but couldn't hurt.

 

[600SL]

Sounds like you have some resistance in the neutral before the 200 amp panel check meter and other connections back to transformer.

Thanks will check what I have but I cant go beyond the main panel. Will have to call an electrician for that or maybe even the power company.

 

[manwithtools]

Interesting thanks for the heads up. So it sounds like the GFIC is causing the trip and not a short circuit. Sound like I could replace all my outlets with GFIC outlets and then replace the breakers with standard ones. At least that my keep the line alive and I could plug my computer in to an outlet further away.

Don't misunderstand my comment, I'm not recommending replacing your breakers. Some GFCI's (breakers and outlets) can be more sensitive than other units of the same manufacture and type. Sometimes folks report solving problems by replacing the suspect GFCI device.

In your case, I'm not convinced that will help. You may have to find a way to separate the wiring if inductance is causing the problem.

I would perform some investigative testing to isolate the root cause. Things like temporarily separating the wiring, etc.

 

[600SL]

Don't misunderstand my comment, I'm not recommending replacing your breakers. Some GFCI's (breakers and outlets) can be more sensitive than other units of the same manufacture and type. Sometimes folks report solving problems by replacing the suspect GFCI device.

In your case, I'm not convinced that will help. You may have to find a way to separate the wiring if inductance is causing the problem.

I would perform some investigative testing to isolate the root cause. Things like temporarily separating the wiring, etc.

Good idea. I just checked out the prices of GCIC outlets. It will cost me over $400 to replace them all. Can probably do better but thats the Home Depot price. Now I remember why I opted for the GFIC breakers. Definitely will be trying the ground first. I did do a Google search and found people with the exact same problem.

 

[Thumper68]

Easy fix, since you have passed inspection pull the GFCI breakers and install a standard breaker, if you decide to sell the property then reinstall the GFCI.

 

[600SL]

Apparently its the TR option that drives the price insane. I need about 20 of them. The TR is required according to my inspector, but I really hate that option.

 

[600SL]

Easy fix, since you have passed inspection pull the GFCI breakers and install a standard breaker, if you decide to sell the property then reinstall the GFCI.

The thought has crossed my mind. But lets see if there is something simple to try.

 

[manwithtools]

Apparently its the TR option that drives the price insane. I need about 20 of them. The TR is required according to my inspector, but I really hate that option.

Don't forget the GFCI outlet only needs to be the first one in the circuit. It will protect the other standard outlets downstream on it's load connections - up to it's maximum allowable number of outlets that GFCI supports.

 

[600SL]

Don't forget the GFCI outlet only needs to be the first one in the circuit. It will protect the other standard outlets downstream on it's load connections - up to it's maximum allowable number of outlets that GFCI supports.

Yes but that would require a lot of rewiring as each one is pig tailed down from the ceiling. I also don't generally do that same reason I don't generally use GFIC CB's. Single point failure usually far from and having nothing to do with what your working on takes out the whole line.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Don't forget the GFCI outlet only needs to be the first one in the circuit. It will protect the other standard outlets downstream on it's load connections - up to it's maximum allowable number of outlets that GFCI supports.

There is no maximum.

 

[KenC]

Yes but that would require a lot of rewiring as each one is pig tailed down from the ceiling. I also don't generally do that same reason I don't generally use GFIC CB's. Single point failure usually far from and having nothing to do with what your working on takes out the whole line.[/t

Should be simple to rewire at the first Jbox to bring power down to the recpt/GFCI location then back up.

But, it's a good possibility the issue is caused by inducted current. It may be worth a try to just reroute the 3 circuits in the main box. If the wires near to each other and parallel for any distance either separate them or arrange them so that they cross at a near 90 deg angle. Looks nasty, but you can legally splice inside the box to add more length onto them if necessary.

 

[600SL]

Yes but that would require a lot of rewiring as each one is pig tailed down from the ceiling. I also don't generally do that same reason I don't generally use GFIC CB's. Single point failure usually far from and having nothing to do with what your working on takes out the whole line.[/t

Should be simple to rewire at the first Jbox to bring power down to the recpt/GFCI location then back up.

But, it's a good possibility the issue is caused by inducted current. It may be worth a try to just reroute the 3 circuits in the main box. If the wires near to each other and parallel for any distance either separate them or arrange them so that they cross at a near 90 deg angle. Looks nasty, but you can legally splice inside the box to add more length onto them if necessary.

Might not be that simple I have to consider box capacities, EMT fill concerns, Plus it would be ugly. The real problem I have now is that I cant find a 4" box cover that will hold 1 GFIC outlet and 1 L14-20 outlet. See previous picture of 4" box to the right of the welder sub panel. Right now there are 4 10 ga conductors 1 neutral and 1 ground running down that 3/4" EMT. I'm still hopeful that grounding the welding table might do something.

 

[arkieguide]

I do not have this problem - I do use a 220 v welder and a flux core welder, with many other power tools in my shop.I do not use the gfci breakers in my shop, only in areas subject to water. I separate all my circuits once they leave the panel.I have 120 v duplex receptacles over my welding bench but not connected to the table. I have ever thing in my shop bonded to each other and grounded.Metal in the building, all tools, vices, if its metal its bonded. Inductance can be a problem, I see your welding outlet is at the panel, is it grounded properly ? Inside the panel are the wires wound around each other and the other wires ? Welding leads from the welder are a different kind of ground then the primary circuit,& separate. The way I see your wiring picture it is probably in the panel, unless out of view the welding lead are run along with the other power wire ?

 

[nsula_country]

I have a couple of AFCI's in the house that nuisance trip. Our twin, 27kw tankless water heaters create noise that the breakers don't like. They are one more trip away from getting replaced with a straight 20a.

You should only really need GFCI near a source (6') of WATER or OUTSIDE.

So your detached has to have GFCI and TR? That blows. Glad I was able to get out of that one! Our shop is technically considered commercial.
CT

 

[600SL]

I do not have this problem - I do use a 220 v welder and a flux core welder, with many other power tools in my shop.I do not use the gfci breakers in my shop, only in areas subject to water. I separate all my circuits once they leave the panel.I have 120 v duplex receptacles over my welding bench but not connected to the table. I have ever thing in my shop bonded to each other and grounded.Metal in the building, all tools, vices, if its metal its bonded. Inductance can be a problem, I see your welding outlet is at the panel, is it grounded properly ? Inside the panel are the wires wound around each other and the other wires ? Welding leads from the welder are a different kind of ground then the primary circuit,& separate. The way I see your wiring picture it is probably in the panel, unless out of view the welding lead are run along with the other power wire ?

The panel you see near the welder has no 120V circuits. Just welders and HVAC 240V. The 120V circuits come from the main panel. The wiring in both panels is very clean. I run through EMT with a ground wire at each box.

Problem I have changing these over to GFIC outlets is the mixed L14-20 and 240V duplex combination. I cant find a 4" cover for L14-20 and Duplex GFIC.

 

[600SL]

I have a couple of AFCI's in the house that nuisance trip. Our twin, 27kw tankless water heaters create noise that the breakers don't like. They are one more trip away from getting replaced with a straight 20a.

You should only really need GFCI near a source (6') of WATER or OUTSIDE.

So your detached has to have GFCI and TR? That blows. Glad I was able to get out of that one! Our shop is technically considered commercial.
CT

Yep I guess the inspector or town thinks its residential.

 

[TractorJeff]

Hasn't anyone noticed the part where he said "tripped a circuit powering a DC power supply"?
Then he said in a later post "the DC power supply was sitting on the welding table powering an LED light"?
Didn't read ALL the posts but someone mentioned strapping the table to ground which the OP again commented on his poor welding ground lead connection........

 

[600SL]

Hasn't anyone noticed the part where he said "tripped a circuit powering a DC power supply"?
Then he said in a later post "the DC power supply was sitting on the welding table powering an LED light"?
Didn't read ALL the posts but someone mentioned strapping the table to ground which the OP again commented on his poor welding ground lead connection........

Yes that will be the first thing I will be addressing. No time to weld at the moment but I will report back.

I am concerned about the poor grounding because in some instances like welding small flat parts on the table it is impossible to ground anymore than letting the part rest on the table as was this case. In those cases it may be likely I will have to put up with trips or go with GFIC outlets or no GFIC breakers. But I can at least ground the table to the ground buss in the sub panel. This all assumes poor ground is the problem.

 

[nsula_country]

Yep I guess the inspector or town thinks its residential.

Apology on my end. I "assumed" you ment my inspector... Believe you ment your inspector thinks it's residential. Good luck with your troubleshooting. My unedited post follows.

Ps, is it code to bond a welding table to the sub panel?

Wrong for assuming...

House is on 5 acres. Shop is on the other 45 acres of ranch land, separate service, name on deed is an LLC. Commercial (AG technically). Commercial loan ect... Exempt from TR, AFCI, and GFCI unless wet location (outside). Under NEC 2011 when built.

House is defiantly residential. Still I'm not above replacing nuciance AFCI's with STD 1P. Not to mention I have learned to absolutely HATE TR receptacles! Some work fine, others **** Donkey Bails. They each require their own technical document on how to get a plug into them.

CT

 

[600SL]

Apology on my end. I "assumed" you ment my inspector... Believe you ment your inspector thinks it's residential. Good luck with your troubleshooting. My unedited post follows.

Ps, is it code to bond a welding table to the sub panel?

Wrong for assuming...

House is on 5 acres. Shop is on the other 45 acres of ranch land, separate service, name on deed is an LLC. Commercial (AG technically). Commercial loan ect... Exempt from TR, AFCI, and GFCI unless wet location (outside). Under NEC 2011 when built.

House is defiantly residential. Still I'm not above replacing nuciance AFCI's with STD 1P. Not to mention I have learned to absolutely HATE TR receptacles! Some work fine, others **** Donkey Bails. They each require their own technical document on how to get a plug into them.

CT

No apology required. Good question on the to code of bonding direct to the panel. Maybe not but I can bond to my steel walls which are attached to my steel panel. Then I can just say its an anti theft strap for my welding table.

As far as the commercial residential debate its really a matter of taking the town and the public utility to court to resolve this. According to the town its residential. According to the utility because I have a separate service its commercial and consequently pay a higher commercial rate. According to my inspector I had to put in GFIC because it was residential. Shop and house are on a 1.7 acre plot.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is your PoCo a public agency? In another words a government agency?

 

[nsula_country]

600SL

With a 1.7 a.c. lot, it probably comes down to zoning. It is easier to sell 45 acres outside of city limits in the Parish (County in the other 49 States) as Agriculture/Commercial than two structures on <2 a.c.

With 2 a.c. I can see the town zoning it residential, hence inspector going by residential code. I can see the utility billing Commercial due to 2nd meter on same property/address as a commercial account/business meter.

When we decided to build our shop, separate parcel of land... We obtained a new 911 address for it. It has its own mailbox. Hence totally different entity from the house. Each meter has a seperate address. That is how we were able to get commercial inspection.

Hope this helps.

CT

 

[600SL]

Is your PoCo a public agency? In another words a government agency?

PoCo??? My utility company Duke Energy, I believe is privately held. I really can complain. Because I was a separate service the installed it for free.