twertsy
Well-known member
I'm betting that's a quite valuable wrench.......
My small but growing DBE wrench collection
- Thread starter BlueBomber
- Start date
I'm betting that's a quite valuable wrench.......
OP
BlueBomber
Well-known member
I heard a heavenly choir in my head when I read that! Very cool, Lugz and Riley!
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I'm betting that most WWII Harley-Davidson guys don't even know that this wrench exists. It doesn't go in the toolkit carried on the motorcycle, if that's what you're thinking. Like Willys MB and Ford GPW jeep tools, those Harley tools...
...do have a hefty value, especially the rare ones.
(EDIT: To view examples, go here.)
This DBE wrench, like all the other tools in the N-19, was used by mechanics at depots in the rear, where vehicles were sent for major repairs and overhauls.
On top of that, note that the 41-T-3367-23 was for a Harley "shaft drive" motorcycle. That refers to the XA, not the famous WLA, which was of course chain-drive. (The WLA had its own special rear echelon support tool-set - 41-T-3367-20, and I'd bet that most WWII Harley guys don't even know that existed, let alone what tools went in it, either.)
The XA was an experimental bike that the Army asked Harley-Davidson to build. (They asked Indian, too.) Only 1,000 were made, all in late 1941 and 1942. Survivors are very rare and command a very high price.
That's why there is no reference to this tool in any of the mid- to late-war Ordnance Supply Catalogs. The rear echelon service tools tool-set was dropped when the bike was.
This wrench is actually a perfect example of those kinds of vintage wrenches that are so rare and so weird that they probably have no value.
Except to guys like me and d42jeep and a couple other guys kooky enough to collect rear echelons tools, which just aren't **** enough for MV shows and displays to be as desirable as on-board tools.
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twertsy
Well-known member
I'm betting that most WWII Harley-Davidson guys don't even know that this wrench exists. It doesn't go in the toolkit carried on the motorcycle, if that's what you're thinking. Like Willys MB and Ford GPW jeep tools, those Harley tools...
...do have a hefty value, especially the rare ones.
(EDIT: To view examples, go here.)
This DBE wrench, like all the other tools in the N-19, was used by mechanics at depots in the rear, where vehicles were sent for major repairs and overhauls.
On top of that, note that the 41-T-3367-23 was for a Harley "shaft drive" motorcycle. That refers to the XA, not the famous WLA, which was of course chain-drive. (The WLA had its own special rear echelon support tool-set - 41-T-3367-20, and I'd bet that most WWII Harley guys don't even know that existed, let alone what tools went in it, either.)
The XA was an experimental bike that the Army asked Harley-Davidson to build. (They asked Indian, too.) Only 1,000 were made, all in late 1941 and 1942. Survivors are very rare and command a very high price.
That's why there is no reference to this tool in any of the mid- to late-war Ordnance Supply Catalogs. The rear echelon service tools tool-set was dropped when the bike was.
This wrench is actually a perfect example of those kinds of vintage wrenches that are so rare and so weird that they probably have no value.
Except to guys like me and d42jeep and a couple other guys kooky enough to collect rear echelons tools, which just aren't **** enough for MV shows and displays to be as desirable as on-board tools.
12th item (wrench, 1 large opening and one tiny) from the left....is that a 1007 by any chance?
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I don't know, Todd. Sorry. I'm not a WLA guy. (Sacrilege, I know, but I prefer my BSA WDM20 "thumper"!) Go to the link I posted. Or the motorcycle section on the G. I am laughing because I can just see you having one of those "I think I have that tool!" moments.
I guess I shouldn't've posted that image. Dozens of guys are calling in sick right now to scour their tools for Harley treasures! This hobby is maddening sometimes. It just gets in your blood.
twertsy
Well-known member
I am laughing because I can just see you having one of those "I think I have that tool!" moments.
I guess I shouldn't've posted that image. Dozens of guys are calling in sick right now to scour their tools for Harley treasures! This hobby is maddening sometimes. It just gets in your blood.
Actually, someone posted a wrench that looks just like that with a 1007 forge mark over on tool talk. That's what made me think of it.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I don’t post my own finds in this thread too often, but I chanced on a goodie at my early bird this morning…
View media item 75575
View media item 75576
Long 15* angle pattern Duro-Chrome 2014A (11/16 x 3/4) with a “G” (1945) code. As Don and UNAIU can attest, this is not an easy size combination for WWII collectors to find from any mfgr. Not terribly rare, but not common, either. In fact, I always advise guys to start with this wrench before they pick what brand they want their DBE’s inm and even if they already have a few in the other sizes, to switch to whatever brand they find this wrench in!
See Thumbnails for close-ups.
View media item 75575
View media item 75576
Long 15* angle pattern Duro-Chrome 2014A (11/16 x 3/4) with a “G” (1945) code. As Don and UNAIU can attest, this is not an easy size combination for WWII collectors to find from any mfgr. Not terribly rare, but not common, either. In fact, I always advise guys to start with this wrench before they pick what brand they want their DBE’s inm and even if they already have a few in the other sizes, to switch to whatever brand they find this wrench in!
See Thumbnails for close-ups.
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Nice find Lugz! Those 11/16" & 3/4" DBEs are the tough ones to nail down for sure!
Here's my wartime General Mechanics Tool Set trio of matching Duro long pattern DBEs.
I've since located (via trade) the 11/16" & 3/4" version marked with the (X) instead of the 'G' identifier.
And (Lugz), you've seen these before, but I have an early Williams transitional wartime marked 'Chrome Alloy' and 'Special' 11/16" & 3/4" where one size marking has been ground off and the 3/4" stamp applied.
Here's my wartime General Mechanics Tool Set trio of matching Duro long pattern DBEs.
I've since located (via trade) the 11/16" & 3/4" version marked with the (X) instead of the 'G' identifier.
And (Lugz), you've seen these before, but I have an early Williams transitional wartime marked 'Chrome Alloy' and 'Special' 11/16" & 3/4" where one size marking has been ground off and the 3/4" stamp applied.
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d42jeep
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OP
BlueBomber
Well-known member
Nice post, Lugz, and thanks for the tutorial on wartime DBEs. I need to check my collection for that size combo...
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Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I have, and it's an important historical specimen, lending physical credence to the catalog research revealing this size combination as a military spec driving industry to a wrench not too many mfgrs were making prior to 1941.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
No prob, Bomber. See User's post for the other two sizes in the three-wrench set. The other three-wrench set was dwarfies, double 45* offset: 3/8 x 7/16, 1/2 x 9/16, and 5/8 x 3/4. In my experience, the largest is the hard one to find in that set. Those were the six DBE wrenches in the WWII GMTK, the Army's most basic, common, and prolific service set.
This war-time stuff looks so highly specialized that most regular Joes like me would have no idea what we're looking at without a whole lot of schooling. I could be walking past all kinds of these things at sales that I'm never able to rescue and bring to those who want them because I don't have a clue what they are.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
d42jeep
Well-known member
In my opinion, the difficulty in finding the correct wartime tools is what makes putting these sets together enjoyable. I carry one of Lugz' guides with me wherever I go searching for vintage tools. Some of the wrenches pictured below have taken years to find. I have received plenty of help from people on this site.
-Don
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Private Lugnutz
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I recently did some horse-trading with Rileysan, who kindly and unexpectedly threw in the Indian 741 & 841 (previously and erroneously reported as Harley-Davidson) S-shaped DBE service wrench with the “41-W-2068” FSN on the shank as a deal-sweetener.
View media item 75702
Intrigued by its strange configuration, I was eager to get it on my bench where I could check it out for myself more closely to see if I could figure out why the Army would specify it.
The double-hex box ends are indeed both 1/2” milled openings, as Rileysan reported, and they are indeed both set on the ends of the shank at angles (measured at 15*), as Rileysan reported, just like the ends on any standard 15* angle pattern DBE wrench with a straight handle.
View media item 75703
But the ends are not redundant to each other. They are unique. If it was a straight handle wrench, they would be redundant, and nonsensical. But this wrench curves in opposite directions on each end. That allows the user to take advantage of the 15* angle and each curve, left or right, to clear handle/hand obstructions (with the elevated shank) and a proximity obstruction (with the curves in the shank) when loosening or tightening a 1/2” fastener.
Here is the wrench with one end positioned over a notional fastener (note the white friction tape to mark that end), flush with the fastener. Note which way the shank nearest that end is curving.
View media item 75704
If you need to turn a fastener with the same handle clearance but the curve going the other way, you can't simply flip the wrench over. That would reverse the curve, but it would also reverse the angle, making it impossible to get the ring on the nut. You have to use the other end of the wrench.
View media item 75705
It's an odd little wrench and I'm trying to contact a few Indian owners to try to see what it might have been used to turn on the bike.
View media item 75702
Intrigued by its strange configuration, I was eager to get it on my bench where I could check it out for myself more closely to see if I could figure out why the Army would specify it.
The double-hex box ends are indeed both 1/2” milled openings, as Rileysan reported, and they are indeed both set on the ends of the shank at angles (measured at 15*), as Rileysan reported, just like the ends on any standard 15* angle pattern DBE wrench with a straight handle.
View media item 75703
But the ends are not redundant to each other. They are unique. If it was a straight handle wrench, they would be redundant, and nonsensical. But this wrench curves in opposite directions on each end. That allows the user to take advantage of the 15* angle and each curve, left or right, to clear handle/hand obstructions (with the elevated shank) and a proximity obstruction (with the curves in the shank) when loosening or tightening a 1/2” fastener.
Here is the wrench with one end positioned over a notional fastener (note the white friction tape to mark that end), flush with the fastener. Note which way the shank nearest that end is curving.
View media item 75704
If you need to turn a fastener with the same handle clearance but the curve going the other way, you can't simply flip the wrench over. That would reverse the curve, but it would also reverse the angle, making it impossible to get the ring on the nut. You have to use the other end of the wrench.
View media item 75705
It's an odd little wrench and I'm trying to contact a few Indian owners to try to see what it might have been used to turn on the bike.
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d42jeep
Well-known member
Don, you should go ahead and just send me that short Duro DBE.
I added a few DBEs to the pile this weekend.
Armstrong; Mac; Plomb WF; Chrome Vanadium Steel; Powr-Kraft; Bonney; New Britain.
I would be happy to send you that Duro shortly offset and I wouldn't mind having that Barcalo made PowrKraft shorty for my PowrKraft box.
-Don
Rileysan
Well-known member
Interesting find this morning. A Blackhawk 2724 3/4" single off-set DBE with raised lettering instead of stamped. AA has a nice little paragraph about these short-lived wrenches. The captions under each photo state these date from 1928-30 but the paragraph alludes to them being made up until 1940, so I don't quite know how to date mine. Unfortunately, this was the only one from the set at the sale.
Brian
Brian
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
We were just talking about the set of six (6) WWII GMTK DBE's a few pages back, because I had found one of the three long 15* angle pattern wrenches, a Duro-Chrome "G" stamp. Today I found one of the three short 45* offset pattern wrenches, also a Duro-Chrome "G" stamp. This one has some weird markings. Three "dots" in the shape of a triangle on either side of the raised panel on the shank on the flip side. I can't decide if they're forged-in at the factory - which would be a first seen for me, as far as I can recall, or really well-done owner's marks. Leaning toward latter.
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Provincial
Well-known member
It is hard to add metal to a heat-treated wrench. In order to make the raised "dots" the owner would have to use a welder, and at that time period, it is unlikely they could deposit steel without some spatter or other damage. The "dots" seem to be very uniform and smooth, which indicates they are forged-in.
Just my deductions.
Just my deductions.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
And I thank you for them, Provincial. I agreed to most of them, hence my stated quandary. My doubt hinges on two things: never having seen such a marking on any Duro-Chrome G or (X) wartime wrenches before (I am relying on Don and UNAIU to either confirm that or set me straight on it having other examples), which is a fairly large sample set, and it being such an exotic thing to do, especially during wartime. Also, if it was forged, the die would be more uniform. To my eye, the dots on the left look considerably smaller than the dots on the right. But again, I am not wedded, just leaning. It's a puzzler.
d42jeep
Well-known member
Take another look at the one I posted on the previous page. I think the dots are identical. Here it is again.
-Don
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Haha! Didn't this just happen in reverse a couple weeks ago?! Payback's a *****. (And what was that we were just saying about getting old?)
Ole Slewfoot
Well-known member
That guy might have had a lot o wrenches.
But seriously,
If you eye em up next to similar wrenches does the material look any different?
But seriously,
If you eye em up next to similar wrenches does the material look any different?
d42jeep
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
All the Duro-Chrome (X) and G stamped wrenches were all made in WWII with alloy steel and no plating. As for the markings, I was thinking it could be a unit, such as a particular company Ordnance depot (many "Delta" designated units used a triangle as a unit symbol). But the way Don's and mine are identically precise would be hard to duplicate in the field, even with some kind of hotwired device.
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BONNEY! I've got a couple of those TuHex wrenches.
Seems like everyone at the time had their own marketing term for the 12pt box wrench. Williams was a DuoHex.
Good find, Don.
Was Snap-On called Boxocket?
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OP
BlueBomber
Well-known member
You all are finding some really cool DBEs out there! Me, I've found zippo as I'm focused on the new garage build. But it's really nice to live vicariously through the rest of you.
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Hopefully you'll be building yourself plenty of wall space for your collection of DBEs!
OP
BlueBomber
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Hopefully you'll be building yourself plenty of wall space for your collection of DBEs!
View media item 75938
That back wall is 31 feet long and 10 feet tall.....and no windows to break it up...just saying
Outlawmws
Well-known member
So, you are building a new shop, just to be better able to display your DBE collection...
OP
BlueBomber
Well-known member
So, you are building a new shop, just to be better able to display your DBE collection...
You make that sound like a bad thing...
Outlawmws
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Ole Slewfoot
Well-known member
I was thinking Duro might have tried a few alloys to get their stuff working right in spite of the restrictions, and put a somewhat subtle mark to track what was working.
d42jeep
Well-known member
The wrench with the dots was made in '45 so I imagine that they would have had their alloy formulation pretty well worked out by then.
Here is a complete set (3/8" to 1") of early Old Forge wrenches made by Barcalo. I was lucky enough to complete the set on Thursday after a friend had given me the first few. The other wrench is a Blue Point half moon 9/16" X 5/8" made in 1946, as far as I can tell.
-Don
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Man, those Old Forges look beautiful together, Don.
Private Lugnutz
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I'm still parsing tools out of this Saturday morning flea market haul into pertinent threads...
View media item 75919
...including this trio of long 45* double offset pattern DBE wrenches.
View media item 75919
...including this trio of long 45* double offset pattern DBE wrenches.
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Very cool Don. Probably the only set that exists together.
Nice trio of wrenches, Lugz. I especially like those old Hinsdale DBEs.