Need to raise horizontal track a few inches. Easy?

[frankd]

So I recently converted from an extension spring setup to a torsion spring. The next step is to install the liftmaster 8500 which I recently purchased. After reading several threads on this board as well as some service bulletins from Liftmaster, it look I need to do one of, or all of 3 things:
- Install pusher springs
- Adjust the horizontal track so that there is some "slope" to it... so under normal gravity the door wants to roll down the tracks and close itself
- Reduce tension on the springs so that the door has a bit of weight on it coming down.

Right now, in the open position, the door stays there and does not come down by itself at all. So with the opener installed, when I close the door I'm assuming it wont come down and it'll trip the cable tension switch.

I'd like to solve the issue by just putting some slope in the horizontal track. I'm thinking/hoping that only a couple of inches would do it. Can I just loosen the hardware that secures the horizontal track, raise it up 2-3 inches and re-attach it? I don't want to have to mess with the whole radius and get new tracks.
Door is 16' wide, 6.6" high. about 210 lbs. 12" radius.
Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Yes you can do that with the track but may not get you the results you want. Pusher springs would be advised as well as a little less tension. So all three would be best. You also want to check the door without the opener hooked up. Before you make any more changes. Be certain the door works free without rubbing or binding. Resolve those issues, give everything a good squirt of lubricant and proceed as needed. Hope this helps.

 

[gnpenning]

Pusher springs is all you need if everything else is correct. make sure they come as close as you can to get them to fully collapse. For your door the 18" will be long enough.

Ideally high lift is the way to go.

No need for anything else. You will just be over working the opener for no gain.

As mentioned make everything else is moving smoothly

 

[kbs2244]

Try it your way first.
It is a no cost, simple, and easy to reverse fix if it doesn't work

 

[pattenp]

With the torsion springs installed and wound to the correct tension the door should not come down on its own when fully opened, even with the opener disconnected. The opener unwinds the springs allowing the door to lower under its own weight. With the opener disconnected use a pair of vise-grips to turn the torsion bar and see if the door starts to move downwards on its own. If not, then some slant of the rails are needed or pusher springs are needed.

 

[gnpenning]

High lift or pusher springs are the only way to be sure you have cable tension and not risk jumping the cables. Anything else is a risk.

 

[frankd]

Thanks for all the replies. Unfortunately high lift won't be an option. The garage ceiling is really low (probably around 7ft 6in). The drums are only maybe 6 inches from the ceiling at this point.
I'll order the pusher springs but also but a little bit of slope on the tracks (2 inches ok?). I think the current springs are wound too tight. With the door open, and the garage door opener disconnected, I need to move the garage door about 2 feet before it wants to start to close under it's own weight. If I move it any less the door either stays put, or goes back up. That's why I didn't think the pusher springs would work at first.

 

[frankd]

Just found this. Thought it would be helpful for anyone else having the same issue.

http://ddmgaragedoors.com/blog/2016...e-problems-on-doors-with-jackshaft-operators/

 

[pattenp]

Thanks for all the replies. Unfortunately high lift won't be an option. The garage ceiling is really low (probably around 7ft 6in). The drums are only maybe 6 inches from the ceiling at this point.
I'll order the pusher springs but also but a little bit of slope on the tracks (2 inches ok?). I think the current springs are wound too tight. With the door open, and the garage door opener disconnected, I need to move the garage door about 2 feet before it wants to start to close under it's own weight. If I move it any less the door either stays put, or goes back up. That's why I didn't think the pusher springs would work at first.

Just to be clear if you are just pulling down on the door by the panels that doesn't tell you if the door will close on its own from operation of the opener. With the opener disconnected you need to turn the torsion bar by hand in the downward direction to see if the door starts to roll close.

 

[gnpenning]

A properly balanced door should not go up or down by it's self. With a roller above and one below the radius it should hold, a slight creep when the top or bottom panels are at these positions is acceptable.

With the pusher springs you're wasting your time raising the back of the tracks. Again raising the back of the tracks is something I never do when installing an 8500. Pusher springs or high lift only.

 

[frankd]

Just to be clear if you are just pulling down on the door by the panels that doesn't tell you if the door will close on its own from operation of the opener. With the opener disconnected you need to turn the torsion bar by hand in the downward direction to see if the door starts to roll close.

Thanks for all the great advice! I kind of had an "a-ha" moment with your comment above. I was thinking that the door should want to close under it's own weight (with springs attached) but forgot to take into account the fact that the cable tension is keeping the door up.
I'll go with the pusher springs. I couldn't find 18" though. It was only 15" or 27' so I went with 15.
Thanks!

 

[1500hd]

All you need to do is slope the track 2”. I have 3 8500’s and I also sloped track 2”, not 1 problem with any of the doors. You need to realize when the opener begins to close the door it “removes” all up tension on the cables. So technically all the weight of the door is causing it to go down in a controlled manner. No pusher springs are necessary.

 

[gnpenning]

All you need to do is slope the track 2”. I have 3 8500’s and I also sloped track 2”, not 1 problem with any of the doors. You need to realize when the opener begins to close the door it “removes” all up tension on the cables. So technically all the weight of the door is causing it to go down in a controlled manner. No pusher springs are necessary.

Apparently these are your own. I would guess your doors are not probably balanced.

Are you willing to go fix a birdsnest for him when your backyard advice fails?

Really bad advice.

 

[pattenp]

Apparently these are your own. I would guess your doors are not probably balanced.

Are you willing to go fix a birdsnest for him when your backyard advice fails?

Really bad advice.

The door being balanced or having enough weight when the springs are unwound are two different things. A door can still have enough weight in the closing direction and be balanced. Pusher springs on a standard door track is just a guarantee that there is enough down force to keep the cables tight so they don't jump off the drums. 1500hd's comment is not really bad advise because it all depends on the door.

 

[gnpenning]

The door being balanced or having enough weight when the springs are unwound are two different things. A door can still have enough weight in the closing direction and be balanced. Pusher springs on a standard door track is just a guarantee that there is enough down force to keep the cables tight so they don't jump off the drums. 1500hd's comment is not really bad advise because it all depends on the door.

Sorry I disagree.

Anything other than high lift or pusher springs is an unacceptable risk in my business. I've already explained correct balance.

I've gotten those after hours call to go fix this kinda backyard engineering. The $50 dollar pusher springs are much cheaper the first time.

Anyone suggesting this method should be close enough and willing to go fix any failures no matter the time of temperature

When giving out recommendations make sure it's an industry acceptable standard first. I will say we have a door company in the area that has done some incredibly crazy things. They have increased my bottom line which I thank them, but have cost customers unnecessarily, which I disagree with.

 

[1500hd]

Sorry I disagree.

Anything other than high lift or pusher springs is an unacceptable risk in my business. I've already explained correct balance.

I've gotten those after hours call to go fix this kinda backyard engineering. The $50 dollar pusher springs are much cheaper the first time.

Anyone suggesting this method should be close enough and willing to go fix any failures no matter the time of temperature

When giving out recommendations make sure it's an industry acceptable standard first. I will say we have a door company in the area that has done some incredibly crazy things. They have increased my bottom line which I thank them, but have cost customers unnecessarily, which I disagree with.

Ok we can disagree. In my situation all 3 doors open and close easily manually. So they must be balanced correctly. 8 years of how many thousands of cycles and NOT 1 cable entanglement. Guess I must just be lucky.

 

[gnpenning]

Ok we can disagree. In my situation all 3 doors open and close easily manually. So they must be balanced correctly. 8 years of how many thousands of cycles and NOT 1 cable entanglement. Guess I must just be lucky.

Yes you are. I'm happy for you.

Little surprised you have had 8500 for 8 years not 3800's.

 

[pattenp]

Ok we can disagree. In my situation all 3 doors open and close easily manually. So they must be balanced correctly. 8 years of how many thousands of cycles and NOT 1 cable entanglement. Guess I must just be lucky.

It's not luck. It's known as gravity pulling the inclined door closed keeping the cables from going slack.

 

[1500hd]

It's not luck. It's known as gravity pulling the inclined door closed keeping the cables from going slack.

Yep.

 

[gnpenning]

If gravity pulled the doors down by itself how do you keep your door open?

Again a properly balanced door should hold.

When a door is all the way up try your suggestions of turning the spring shaft at the start up speed of of a Jackshaft opener and watch the cables. Do it with slanted track then try it with pusher springs.

 

[1500hd]

If gravity pulled the doors down by itself how do you keep your door open? The counterbalance torsion springs.

Again a properly balanced door should hold. They do.

When a door is all the way up try your suggestions of turning the spring shaft at the start up speed of of a Jackshaft opener and watch the cables. Do it with slanted track then try it with pusher springs. Did it. Sloped track. Push controller, opener soft starts, torsion spring tube turns, door begins to lower and the cables stay taunt. Lift Master recommends sloped track OR pusher springs. With sloping of the track the first recommendation, per the service bulletin that you posted a link to.

 

[gnpenning]

As a liftmaster dealer I'm aware of what they recommend. BTW I didn't post any links. I just know from working in the industry what you are recommending creates an unacceptable risk, considering a true fix is available.

I'm fine with you doing your own and being happy with it. My issue is recommending it as the way to do it, even if liftmaster shows it as an option. Liftmaster 3800/8500 has not been their best work and have had more issues than they are willing to admit. From the beginning these models have had problems and giving out questionable information. When they changed from the 3800's to 8500 was because of problems with the 3800's. Some of those problems and others are found in the 8500. Bottom line any information they put out on these models I go by experience not what they tell me.

I'm a huge fan of liftmaster and everything thing else they make.

Hope you never have to find out what it's like to deal with a jumped cables.

 

[pattenp]

If gravity pulled the doors down by itself how do you keep your door open?

Again a properly balanced door should hold.

When a door is all the way up try your suggestions of turning the spring shaft at the start up speed of of a Jackshaft opener and watch the cables. Do it with slanted track then try it with pusher springs.

You are missing my point. I'm referring to gravity pulling the door down when the drums start unwinding the cables. Not when the door is under tension from the springs holding the door open. That is why I said to turn the drums by hand to see if the door starts to close on its own. The key is that the door can keep up with the opener speed so that the cables don't go slack. If any slack is visible then pusher springs are needed.

 

[pattenp]

..... Liftmaster 3800/8500 has not been their best work and have had more issues than they are willing to admit. From the beginning these models have had problems and giving out questionable information. When they changed from the 3800's to 8500 was because of problems with the 3800's. Some of those problems and others are found in the 8500.

You seem to be on the other end of the spectrum from my experience with the LM3800/8500. Even the responses here on GJ are very positive for the LM3800/8500. I will say the LM3800/8500 is not as forgiving as a regular trolley style opener to install. Most of the problems I've seen are door related and the user not having good mechanical knowhow to figure out the problem. Now if you want to talk about a crappy opener lets talk about the Wayne Dalton iDrive.

 

[gnpenning]

You are missing my point. I'm referring to gravity pulling the door down when the drums start unwinding the cables. Not when the door is under tension from the springs holding the door open. That is why I said to turn the drums by hand to see if the door starts to close on its own. The key is that the door can keep up with the opener speed so that the cables don't go slack. If any slack is visible then pusher springs are needed.

The door should always be under spring tension, even when fully open. The tension changes with every turn as the weight of the door on the cables changes. The spring tension holds the door so gravity can't take over.

A fully open door has very little tension on the cables making it easier for the cables to jump on start up.

I've seen it enough times I would never take the risk. The ones that have done it to themselves aren't so smart when they have to pay for someone to clean up their mess and add pusher springs. I will let someone else do it if they still don't want P/S.

 

[1500hd]

You seem to be on the other end of the spectrum from my experience with the LM3800/8500. Even the responses here on GJ are very positive for the LM3800/8500. I will say the LM3800/8500 is not as forgiving as a regular trolley style opener to install. Most of the problems I've seen are door related and the user not having good mechanical knowhow to figure out the problem. Now if you want to talk about a crappy opener lets talk about the Wayne Dalton iDrive.


Before I got the LM's I did have the WD iDrive's. I will not guess how many times the wife called and said the door is stuck half way down. One of the problems with the iDrive is the speed the drums were turned. My 8' X 16' door would close in 4 seconds. The cable would be just enough slack through most of the travel to sometimes cause problems. I got quite efficient untangling and wrapping cables. The track was sloped and door was balanced good. So even using 26" pusher springs would not have helped me. I replaced all 3 with LM's 8 years ago and after that not 1 problem with the cables. Twice yearly I disconnect opener and manually open/close the door to check for any issues.

 

[gnpenning]

You seem to be on the other end of the spectrum from my experience with the LM3800/8500. Even the responses here on GJ are very positive for the LM3800/8500. I will say the LM3800/8500 is not as forgiving as a regular trolley style opener to install. Most of the problems I've seen are door related and the user not having good mechanical knowhow to figure out the problem. Now if you want to talk about a crappy opener lets talk about the Wayne Dalton iDrive.

Yep. Since the inception of the 3800's when I've started seeing issues. Not everyone is bad. When you get a good one they work fine. While I've installed more than a few this year I've still had some bad outof the box. Like any profession the guys doing it for a living see things the casual user will never see. Every time I have a customer requests one we have a discussion about it. If they still want it they sign off and away we go.

What is your association with the ones you are seeing as installation issues?


Liftmaster has gone through many revisions of encoders through the years. Even still seeing some issues but not at the same rate. When I do installs I carry spares. I said spares because I've had some bad out of the box, even the last few months.



I'm sure you know there is a large active thread with unhappy and worried owners. The funny part is considering the number I've installed I haven't seen anything close to the same failure rate??? The funnier part is some of the ones involved in that thread are ones that have talked over my caution with that model. I've noticed myself and the other garage door guys don't bother to answer on most threads do to so many that have done something on there home and because they got away with it think they are pro's.

This is by far the most I've kept with it on one. The OP hasn't been back and I have no need to push this. I will always say relying on raising the back track is never a good idea. Good luck.

 

[Todd.Brock]

GNPEnning- In 2010 I had a new door 16x7 installed and put in a 3800. In the four years before I moved , it was eating left side cables. They would have bird next in them and eventually get all out of wack. Happened almost annually. Are you saying that could have been opener related? I just put in a new door and 8500 a couple weeks ago. My build date was sept. 2017 for 8500. I will be curious if I run into issues.

 

[gnpenning]

GNPEnning- In 2010 I had a new door 16x7 installed and put in a 3800. In the four years before I moved , it was eating left side cables. They would have bird next in them and eventually get all out of wack. Happened almost annually. Are you saying that could have been opener related? I just put in a new door and 8500 a couple weeks ago. My build date was sept. 2017 for 8500. I will be curious if I run into issues.

I wasn't going to muddy this thread any more, but you asked a good question. I need some more information. What track did you have? Full vertical, high lift, standard, or LHR -low headroom? Pusher springs?

 

[Todd.Brock]

It was a high lift track. Did not have pusher springs

 

[gnpenning]

It was a high lift track. Did not have pusher springs

High lift has no need for pusher springs.

In your situation I would say the cable tension wasn't equal side to side. When installing a door i make sure the sections are level. The torsion shaft needs to be the same distance across the top of the door, if the door is level first the shaft will be level. Then the cable tension side to side needs to be equal. If not the door won't lift level and one side will be loose when the door is open. When closing the door the loose cable can birdsnest. The cable will kink, or rub and weaken the cable, causing it to fray. Hopefully this is caught before it breaks. As the cable frays it will stretch which compounds the problem. This also means the door will be dragging on one side causing wear with other parts.

 

[Todd.Brock]

Good deal. Thanks for the info! I sorry for the hi jack , OP