Thoughts on LP Generators

[NUTTSGT]

What are the thoughts on LP generators nowadays ?

My parents once again when a storm rolled through the other night lost power due to trees coming down on the powerlines that run along there road. The tree has been cut back a few times and the power company usually maintains it but still trees come down.

I tried to talk them into getting one several years ago when they lost power one Winter. Fortunately, they have a ventless LP heater in the basement so they could maintain some heat in the house. Now, talking to Mom, she brought it up in conversation. So I figured I would ask the collective minds here on the modern thoughts.

I can't say what size but I'm sure it would be for the whole house. My step-dad being a retired electrician can figure the loads to know what size but he just turned 70 so he won't do the work. He might assist the contractor putting it in but he'll farm out the work.

Thoughts on brands or what to look for ?

 

[rikmac]

I just purchased a generac 22kw too be installed the 22nd of the month. Living in Florida I thought we needed it after many times going without electricity.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

what ever size you purchase make sure you take a good look at the amount of propane it burns.............the bigger units use a lot of propane. Check to see how long it can run before it will empty there storage tank.

when I looked at getting one for my house a few years back the problems I was running into was not having enough gas supply on that end of the house and also the 3/8" underground supply from the 500 gallon tank to the house was to small and would need to be changed to 1/2".
it just seemed like that was the item that killed it for me I ended up going with a portable gas generator.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ventless LP is NOT a good backup heat for anything more than a few hours. What is their primary heat source ?

 

[NUTTSGT]

what ever size you purchase make sure you take a good look at the amount of propane it burns.............the bigger units use a lot of propane. Check to see how long it can run before it will empty there storage tank.

when I looked at getting one for my house a few years back the problems I was running into was not having enough gas supply on that end of the house and also the 3/8" underground supply from the 500 gallon tank to the house was to small and would need to be changed to 1/2".
it just seemed like that was the item that killed it for me I ended up going with a portable gas generator.

They have a LP furnace so it would be plumbed from the tank or tied in. Fortunately, the electric service and LP tank are on the same end of the house. Which is also on the leeward side of the house.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Ventless LP is NOT a good backup heat for anything more than a few hours. What is their primary heat source ?

Normal propane furnace.

The ventless heater is a small unit in the finished basement just to take the chill off when they are working on quilts... they have a long arm and it's what they do in their retirement which keeps them quite busy.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

well that's good, but still take a look at how many gallons of propane it burns a hour, it's simple math to see how long it will run on say a 500 gallon tank. that info should be on line or in the brochure

 

[rikmac]

Mine is getting hooked up to city gas.

 

[mm08822]

I have only installed 1 LP generac HSB generator and it was no problem - 17kw. All the others installed were NG. (I'm in an predominantly NG area.) Basically, LP is the same as NG. Just flip a lever on the unit carb and good to go.

A 22kw generac will consume:
1/2 load: 2.18 gph
Full load: 3.68 gph

The 22 kw unit consumes less than the 20 kw unit. You may not even need 20 kw. Need to do a load calc and capacity for the motor loads starting.

Certainly piping and flow rates/pressures are important to have properly sized for proper operation. This is especially important for generator recovery with motors cycling on/off - well pumps, ac, etc.
Definitely need to size the system from the tank regulator, inlet piping, secondary regulators thru to the last set of piping to handle all loads.

I don't know remember what size underground tank the customer has, but it initially was sized to handle furnace, HW, stove. I think they only filled it 2x/year.

LP on site is a better than depending on a NG distribution system to have capacity to supply your needs during time of emergency. Downside is, you pay for filling the tank long before you consume the fuel.

Since your parents are getting up there in years, I would recommend nothing but an automatic HSB generator. Last thing they should be doing is setting up portable gens and messing with cords/gas.

With a proper installation, maintenance is a simple annual pm - oil change/filter, plugs, battery terms, electrolyte check and general housekeeping.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

so at 3.00 gph x 24 =72 gallons a day x $1.96 a gallon = $136.80 a day

a 500 gallon propane tank filled to 80% = 400 gallons 400/ 72 =5.5 days to empty that tank.

just food for thought

 

[mm08822]

so at 3.00 gph x 24 =72 gallons a day x $1.96 a gallon = $136.80 a day

a 500 gallon propane tank filled to 80% = 400 gallons 400/ 72 =5.5 days to empty that tank.

just food for thought

Nothing says you have to run it all day. Plan your run times and manage the consumption. Can be easily controlled from a remote within the house.

In the summer, probably not too a big concern. In the dead of winter, bigger concern.
Comfort/safety vs roughing it. At age 70+, comfort/safety.

Everyone's situation is different and needs to be assessed.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I agree, just something to consider and make sure your aware of before you purchase.

Also don't forget those propane use numbers are in addition to the propane use of your furnace, water heater, dryer, stove.........

 

[mm08822]

I agree, just something to consider and make sure your aware of before you purchase.

Also don't forget those propane use numbers are in addition to the propane use of your furnace, water heater, dryer, stove.........

and more importantly, how much is left in tank!

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Generac spec's https://cityelectricsupply.com/imag...erators-guardian-9kw-22kw_sell-sheet-2017.pdf
22kw 1/2=2.56 gal/hr
22kw full=3.87 gal hr

propane prices Ohio https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_SOH_w.htm

 

[mrobins297aaa]

and more importantly, how much is left in tank!

maybe you should have a separate tank just for the generator, it's not that the stuff goes bad. Around here a new 500 gallon tank goes for about $1200 installed.

 

[mm08822]

Generac spec's https://cityelectricsupply.com/imag...erators-guardian-9kw-22kw_sell-sheet-2017.pdf
22kw 1/2=2.56 gal/hr
22kw full=3.87 gal hr

propane prices Ohio https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_SOH_w.htm

My last 2017 install was supplied with a 2014 version manual. Your data is from a 2016 sell sheet. Generac needs to keep there info in sync. Its not right that a 2017 build/purchase is supplied with 2014 version manuals when newer exist!

 

[mrobins297aaa]

and more importantly, how much is left in tank!

you know that is a excellent point because it's not like you can keep your tank topped off or full all the time. around here the propane companies will not even come out unless you purchase at least 200 gallons so on a 500 gallon tank your going to have to be around 40% full (200 gallons) before you can call for more propane

my example assumes that the tank is full and what are the chances that the power will go out when the tank is full.

all the more reason to have a separate tank for the generator

 

[NUTTSGT]

Nothing says you have to run it all day. Plan your run times and manage the consumption. Can be easily controlled from a remote within the house.

In the summer, probably not too a big concern. In the dead of winter, bigger concern.
Comfort/safety vs roughing it. At age 70+, comfort/safety.

Everyone's situation is different and needs to be assessed.

Step-dad is pretty savy on what needs to run and what could be switched on/off to cycle run times.

They have borrowed my jet-powered (briggs) a few times over the years but their age is what I think is changing their minds on a home standby generator. Wheeling around a generator, fueling it inthe cold or crappy winter is not something they really need to be doing. A simple call to the local LP delivery guy to top off the tank is all they need to be doing.

I need to go over today and clean up some storm damaged trees.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I agree, just something to consider and make sure your aware of before you purchase.

Also don't forget those propane use numbers are in addition to the propane use of your furnace, water heater, dryer, stove.........

They have an electric water heater so the only thing they have running on LP is the furnace and the ventless heater on occasion.

They also own their own LP tank which they bought when the house was built back in '79. They recently added new windows, new siding with some foam underneath and blew more insulation into the attic, so the house is fairly easy to heat.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Besides Generac, what are the other options for brands out there that have good feedback ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Onan Cummins

 

[yeldogt]

Just bought one of the newly designed Cummins air cooled units (20kw) -- 20kw is the largest Cummins make before you have to move to a water cooled unit. This is for my new place in PA -- I'm also installing a 1k gallon propane tank -- heat/stove/dryer/generator/grill

Originally, I was thinking of doing a small unit with a group of dedicated circuits to handle the essentials. With only one main electrical trunk coming into my area we lose power all the time -- normally short duration (under an hour in the summer) ... longer in the winter. Winter is the bigger problem -- we can be out for two days on rare occasions. I was also concerned about fuel consumption -- the last big ice storm we had many people run out of propane. We could not get deliveries (ice) and propane was in short supply.

It did not take me long to understand that doing the whole house was the way to go. The Cummins unit was both energy efficient and competitively priced -- 20kw is sold w/ a package that includes the SE transfer switch w/built in load shedding capability. Current code requires a whole house unit to be large enough to handle all the load or be able to control the load automatically with shedding capabilities.

Cummins new unit has an energy saving exercise routine and the load shedding is very simple with a $200 relay pac that will take care of two loads. The 20k unit used very little extra fuel over the 14k unless nearing full capacity. They say it will start a 5T AC unit.

Mine was around $5500 for the unit/transfer/concrete pad/extra control for inside/ maintenance pac and one load shedding pack. I ordered another load shedding ....will have 4 items on load shedding. Ovens/two heat pumps .. one extra. The 20kw will allow me to run the whole house w 83k and the load shedding.

Some of the load shedding kits have the relays powered all the time -- reverse with the Cummins.

 

[TractorJeff]

I would recommend Propane over Natural Gas if it is a Life Safety issue.
People don't get it that Once the Natural Gas infrastructure is broken, they will be in the dark again!
Expensive to setup and install?
Yes!
But at least if SHTF then you will probably be better prepared to Survive than the people on Gasoline or Natural gas!

 

[MoonRise]

They have an electric water heater so the only thing they have running on LP is the furnace and the ventless heater on occasion.

Remember that if the power goes out, then the electric water heater will just sit there until there is power (whether POCO or generator).

If running on generator power from the LP tank, then the hot water is being produced from the electricity being produced from the generator.

So the LP is being used to make the hot water in that case (with the generator in between the LP and the water heater ).

 

[pentavolvo]

Generac gets my vote and I'm guessing they don't need anywhere near 20kw especially if they don't want ac backed up by it

 

[Platonic Solid]

I've had a 20kw Generac since 2007 with no issues and it uses 30 gallons of propane per day running non-stop.

 

[Milton Shaw]

One of the first things government does in a natural disaster is to cut off the natural gas to prevent fires from broken pipes. I have natural gas for heat, water heat and clothes dryer and got a 500 gallon tank for my backup generator. In the last outage in the north east, natural gas was first off and all the hospitals with NG generators were s*** out of luck....

 

[TractorJeff]

Milton
That's an interesting comment that I am sure someone being "GREEN" didn't think of when they sold that idea to the Hospital!
Back in pre Y2K a local Town Water Dept guy was bragging about their NG backup gens.
I said the same thing to him as Y2K was supposed to shut off the NG pipeline system also. He got REALLY SNOTTY at me for pointing out this fact!
I just assumed ALL hospitals had Diesel Gensets?

 

[shelteredV]

I've been installing the Generac 25kw liquid cooled or the new Cummins liquid cooled. Being on an island, we experience more outages than mainlanders. If a serious storm is coming, they have shut the power off to the island as it hits to avoid unnecessary damages. We have no NG here, its all LPG. My experience (and others) is that an air cooled generator with LPG fuel will shut down on high limit thermal due to lack of cylinder head cooling. The liquid cooled units do much better, and anything larger than 30 KW we will run on #2 fuel oil. For me, this is a loooong conversation because we are always discussing the merits and shortfalls of different powerplants.

 

[firebirdparts]

I certainly appreciate the information shared in this thread, especially from you guys who are installing units at your own place or professionally. It's a big help.

I am amazed that you can get the kind of features yeltdog described for $5500. That's great. I am getting ready to do this too (propane) so I will listen with keen interest.

 

[mm08822]

I certainly appreciate the information shared in this thread, especially from you guys who are installing units at your own place or professionally. It's a big help.

I am amazed that you can get the kind of features yeltdog described for $5500. That's great. I am getting ready to do this too (propane) so I will listen with keen interest.

Generac has those same features, but I'm not pushing that on you.

 

[Adk Mike]

I work in the LP Gas business and hook them up all the time. If I were buying one i’d Get a 10 or 11k. Never mind running the hole house. Seems to me a big one would run you broke.
A few lights and the heat would satisfy me. What’s the most it would be out ?

 

[My Old Tools]

This house came with a 35kw Genrac and an independent 750 gallon LP tank. It runs a weekly self test on its own.

 

[mm08822]

I work in the LP Gas business and hook them up all the time. If I were buying one i’d Get a 10 or 11k. Never mind running the hole house. Seems to me a big one would run you broke.
A few lights and the heat would satisfy me. What’s the most it would be out ?

Need load calcs first to determine needed size. Rationalizing needed loads is part of that process.

Don't have to run it 24/7 when grid is down.

I know people who loose service that are the last on the restore list from the poco. Some for days! Those are the ones who want a gen.

 

[yeldogt]

I certainly appreciate the information shared in this thread, especially from you guys who are installing units at your own place or professionally. It's a big help.

I am amazed that you can get the kind of features yeltdog described for $5500. That's great. I am getting ready to do this too (propane) so I will listen with keen interest.

That's before installation ... just the equipment.

 

[Fasthotrod]

I've been in the electrical power business for over 25 years... when my in-laws wanted a system to support their whole home (father in law has COPD and is on oxygen) I recommended that they buy a Kohler 20kW with a Service Entrance rated Automatic Transfer Switch. (ATS)

The Service Entrance rated ATS is installed between your electrical meter and the main house panel. It automatically detects when power goes out and starts the E/G, then transfers power over. When power comes back, it monitors things to make sure that commercial power is reliable, then transfers back to commercial and allows the E/G to cool down, then shuts down and waits for the next outage.

The system is also designed to perform a test run of the E/G once a week. That way you know it's reliable, can come up to operating temps and burn off any condensation that may have settled in the crankcase, etc...

http://www.kohlergenerators.com/home-generators/products/20RESAL

They've had it for over a year now, and it's been a great unit. I just did the annual maintenance on it, which was nothing more than a set of plugs, oil change, new oil filter, air filter... took a little while, but it wasn't unmanageable.

My wife and I have discussed getting one... and I wouldn't hesitate buying a Kohler system for our house.

The Kohler is a dual-fuel unit, so if you wanted to run it on NG for every day type use, you could... and if you ran into a jam you could switch it over to LP.

Just my two cents... good luck with your decision.

Mark

 

[NUTTSGT]

Just my two cents... good luck with your decision.

Mark

Thanks but it now has become a moot point.

I talked to my step-dad yesterday as they came home while I was doing some storm clean up at their place and a neighbors. He's says they are not getting one. . . . unless Mom has her way. Happy wife, happy life.


BTW, they did get hit hard by the storm the other night. A large beech tree was twisted and broke off from across the road. I thin that may have been the one that took down the power line to their house. We also went back in the wood and and there was about 15-20 trees down. There were very few leaves if any on those tress. He also mentioned having more trees taken down from around the house.

Thanks for all the information and feel free to carry on the discussion, some great information here.