Siemens breakers, Blueline versus double pole versus Q line

[Matt Matt]

They have;
single pole 15 amp
Then there is a blue line 15 amp with two breakers on the same pole

Then there is a double pole 15 for 240 V
Then there is the blueline 15 120 V /15 240 V/15 120 V, in a 2 spot.

Then there is a blue line 15 120 V/ 20 240 V/15 120 V in a 2 spot.

I can keep going on and on. I think on the mini breakers there is a 40 amp middle with 2 15 A on either side.

These mini breakers that are 240 V, do they have the same amp rating time delay as traditional double pole?

I was looking for a little bit of space saving to add a 60 amp.two pole GFCI breaker. My electrician said never put the dryer on one of the blueline minis, You’re just asking for trouble. He said the driers trip them to Easley and he has had to take them back to a double pole breaker in the past... and he will not install them anymore on dryer.

Do the blueline/space saving breakers(mini breakers) not have the same amp trip? I’m gonna throw this past my technologist tomorrow.

But it was an interesting topic with my electrician today as he suggested to not use the space saving blueline on motors or dryer.

 

[Norcal]

Blueline breakers are peculiar to the Canadian market.

 

[Matt Matt]

Blueline breakers are peculiar to the Canadian market.

So does this mean you have no opinion? Or no experience using?
Do you reject this type of breaker? Or do you think it’s inferior?

 

[Norcal]

So does this mean you have no opinion? Or no experience using?
Do you reject this type of breaker? Or do you think it’s inferior?

They are not used in the US, just know they are a Canada specific item.

 

[mm08822]

The trip curves for both breaker styles are needed to compare. Google ite blue line circuit breaker trip curves. If that comes up a zero, go to siemens website or call them.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So does this mean you have no opinion? Or no experience using?
Do you reject this type of breaker? Or do you think it’s inferior?

I have never seen those used in the US.

May be a canadian only product.

 

[Matt Matt]

So I talked to my technologist, he stated that they have a about a 4x amp operating temperature at 6-8 seconds. The standard two pole has a 8x operating at 6-8 seconds. So the mini QT series, I just picked up do not have as much thermal dissipation as regular two spot breakers. I guess, this was kind of confirmed by my electricians comments. But, I’ll give them a try. I’m not going to use them to replace the dryer, just kitchen receptacles/breakers. They are UL and CSA approved. So they should be available both in the US and in Canada. These are not the blue line, they are the QT line.

 

[Stuff]

Is your panel an ITE Blue-Line listed for QT breakers? The electrical contacts/fingers are totally different so do they even fit?

 

[Matt Matt]

Is your panel an ITE Blue-Line listed for QT breakers? The electrical contacts/fingers are totally different so do they even fit?

I guess you missed my point/question. I was wondering if the mini breakers were of less quality. The blueline have them, and so does Q.

I personally have a Q panel.

 

[mm08822]

So I talked to my technologist, he stated that they have a about a 4x amp operating temperature at 6-8 seconds. The standard two pole has a 8x operating at 6-8 seconds. So the mini QT series, I just picked up do not have as much thermal dissipation as regular two spot breakers. I guess, this was kind of confirmed by my electricians comments. But, I’ll give them a try. I’m not going to use them to replace the dryer, just kitchen receptacles/breakers. They are UL and CSA approved. So they should be available both in the US and in Canada. These are not the blue line, they are the QT line.

I guess you missed my point/question. I was wondering if the mini breakers were of less quality. The blueline have them, and so does Q.

I personally have a Q panel.

Where did the technologist get his data from? Did he have time current curves for those specific breakers?
I looked at both Siemens QP and QT curves and Square D’s QO and QOT curves and found much tighter reaction times between both styles for both brands than what he reported.

As for lesser quality, I don’t think that is the issue at all. 4 conductors in the space of otherwise 2. All conductors add heat to the phenolic case. Those in the middle positions are most susceptible to additive heating effect. SQ D even states that tandems should only be used for lightly loaded ckts and non-continuous loads. Ckt loading could be very random so breaker thermal reaction time is somewhat variable.

 

[Matt Matt]

Where did the technologist get his data from? Did he have time current curves for those specific breakers?
I looked at both Siemens QP and QT curves and Square D’s QO and QOT curves and found much tighter reaction times between both styles for both brands than what he reported.

As for lesser quality, I don’t think that is the issue at all. 4 conductors in the space of otherwise 2. All conductors add heat to the phenolic case. Those in the middle positions are most susceptible to additive heating effect. SQ D even states that tandems should only be used for lightly loaded ckts and non-continuous loads. Ckt loading could be very random so breaker thermal reaction time is somewhat variable.

My technologist said based on experience, they don’t have the same thermal dissipation, and usually trip prematurely with a four times overload . My electrician said he’ll never put them in a dryer or motor circuit again.

My plan is to free up a little bit of space by using the mini breakers for my kitchen to give me enough space to feed a sub panel. My electrician said don’t put the minis on the dryer, you’re just asking for trouble. So... i’m not interested in replacing the panel. I’m just looking for two more spots for a sub panel. My curiosity was about the mini breakers not being able to hold thermal overload compared to a regular two spot breaker.

My electrician just finished up the subpanel, but, he’s not allowed to touch anything more without ESA approval. So this is where I sit. I don’t need this panel as I already have 55 A feeding shop. But I thought an extra 60 A would be helpful.

 

[ddawg16]

So I talked to my technologist, he stated that they have a about a 4x amp operating temperature at 6-8 seconds. The standard two pole has a 8x operating at 6-8 seconds. So the mini QT series, I just picked up do not have as much thermal dissipation as regular two spot breakers. I guess, this was kind of confirmed by my electricians comments. But, I’ll give them a try. I’m not going to use them to replace the dryer, just kitchen receptacles/breakers. They are UL and CSA approved. So they should be available both in the US and in Canada. These are not the blue line, they are the QT line.

"Technologist"? Really?

Me thinks you are over thinking this.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

"Technologist"? Really?

Me thinks you are over thinking this.

Agreed.

Some people love over complicating things.

 

[Matt Matt]

Agreed.

Some people love over complicating things.

I have a place in the US. I love how I have the freedom to do whatever I want with my electrical there. It is technically just mobile home/trailer home. My shop there is about 200 ft.². There’s no problem bringing out and Florida stove cable. There’s actually more concern by retailers, if you’ve ever had a dishwasher installed previously. I still wonder why that is?

 

[Matt Matt]

"Technologist"? Really?

Me thinks you are over thinking this.

Why? Because you don’t care to abide by the rules?

Maybe your post is funny, Or legit. Maybe you don’t care, I do!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have a place in the US. I love how I have the freedom to do whatever I want with my electrical there. It is technically just mobile home/trailer home. My shop there is about 200 ft.². There’s no problem bringing out and Florida stove cable. There’s actually more concern by retailers, if you’ve ever had a dishwasher installed previously. I still wonder why that is?

Well its your money. waste away....

 

[Matt Matt]

Well its your money. waste away....

My technologist is free. He is on staff!

I have never made the money you make, but I am ok. I don’t waste. And I never will. I haven’t paid a dime for anything. I tend to like to use industrial surplus.

 

[mm08822]

My technologist said based on experience, they don’t have the same thermal dissipation, and usually trip prematurely with a four times overload . My electrician said he’ll never put them in a dryer or motor circuit again.

I have a place in the US. I love how I have the freedom to do whatever I want with my electrical there. It is technically just mobile home/trailer home. My shop there is about 200 ft.². There’s no problem bringing out and Florida stove cable. There’s actually more concern by retailers, if you’ve ever had a dishwasher installed previously. I still wonder why that is?

Why? Because you don’t care to abide by the rules?

Maybe your post is funny, Or legit. Maybe you don’t care, I do!

75% of the peeps on here could have given you that generalization about heat dissipation differences.
I think somebody made up numbers for somebody – good details = better story??
Just so you know….
SQ D QO trips @ 6 secs w/2.25 – 3.50X CB rating
SQ D QOT trips @ 6 secs w/2.00 – 3.50X CB rating
Siemens QP trips @ 6 secs w/3.25 – 4.75X CB rating
Siemens QT trips @ 6 secs w/2.75 – 4.50X CB rating
I would expect ITE’s to be similar.

The numbers indicate that twice as fast a response time is highly unlikely from one form factor to another.

In this application, I would consider a dryer to be "continuous" (but not in the 3 hour sense.) Motor ckts would probably be better served with a higher ocp value as permitted for dedicated motor ckts.

What??

Maybe besides electric they are concerned about a fresh hot water supply, drain, under cabinet space.....

What rules are you referring to?

FYI….If you are spending all that money to have a sparky hang a sub-panel, you should have put in a larger box. The cost difference of a 8 ckt vs 24 ckt box is pennies. And you could have moved 2 ckts from main panel to sub-panel and eliminated any tandems.

 

[Matt Matt]

I spent $100 all elce was free. Thank you for your free notes. Maybe I should just pm you first, it seems your the only electrical Master that has step up with no bs descent notes! The rest of the post seem to be ****.

Man, why weren’t you in post 2 with post 10 & 18?