lakeroadster
Well-known member
JSK.. your thoughts on this.. http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sims/manuf/3_08_12.htm
New 2-post lift fits 9-foot ceilings. PHOTOS
- Thread starter JSK
- Start date
I'll tread carefully due to the nature of the subject.
The greater percentage of vehicles toppling off of two-post lifts are trucks/vans that are long, rear heavy and with chassis frames that are covered with slippery undercoating. The majority of vehicles fall because of negligence due to improper loading of the lift and the lack of frame cradle pads being used. Typically they topple backwards, falling to the rear of the lift.
What is the force placed on the arm restraint components of an extended arm as a vehicle is falling?
500 pounds side load = 22,000 pounds of force applied to the arm restraints
1000 pounds side load = 45,000 pounds of force applied to the arm restraints
1500 pounds side load = 67,500 pounds of force applied to the arm restraints
In the UK, (and most of Europe for that matter), two-post lifts with floor plate or pans on the floor are the design of choice even when they have 14-foot or greater ceilings. Why would anyone want to drive and work over a hump on the floor?
A mad case of this....
47WDXPW
Well-known member
JSK, thanks for taking the time to answer a question that I understand is not a popular one for manufacturers who's target demographic is one who spend decades sometimes working with their hands and with tools like yours to make a living. I appreciate your answer.
* posted from his PC, laptop or cellphone...made in China.
The MaxJax is an awesome product and it answers the needs for those looking for a mobile-temporary lifting solution and are too "short-ceiling" constrained.
Our GP models are...(how can I say it without disparaging MaxJax)...more. When the two shorter GP models are ready to ship, I may return to this group buy thread and sweeten the pot a little. What better way to show why it is a superior offering than to have you guys share your stories.
foolio
Well-known member
This. Same here. My Craftsman scooty stool is great. Plus with the pan underneath it I can hold parts, tools, and fasteners as I work on project. My mid rise lift has been a game changer. Of course a two would be better but it’s not even a contest to jack stands with the mid rise scissor.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
aren't you getting a little off topic here?.............let it go
cullen
Well-known member
I like that this lift is narrower than others but with the ram in the top beam, wouldn't it be harder to install?
On a regular lift,you can install the top beam with a couple guys on ladders. On the Grandprix it looks like it may need a forklift or overhead crane?
On a regular lift,you can install the top beam with a couple guys on ladders. On the Grandprix it looks like it may need a forklift or overhead crane?
lakeroadster
Well-known member
A report outlining quality issues is brought up to a Bend Pak sales rep. who is talking about a new product.
It also eludes to Bend Pak mislabeling of foreign products as made in US.
How exactly is that off topic?
"labelled as Bend Pak or Ranger and painted Navy blue. Model numbers vary but the majority are either PR-9 or PR – 12-F. These lifts are allegedly manufactured in the US (but may, in fact, be built in China). Those examined did not have a CE mark attached. Each has a unique serial number and date of manufacture with some lifts dating back to 2001."
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mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
A report outlining quality issues is brought up to a Bend Pak sales rep. who is talking about a new product.
It also eludes to Bend Pak mislabeling of foreign products as made in US.
How exactly is that off topic?
"labelled as Bend Pak or Ranger and painted Navy blue. Model numbers vary but the majority are either PR-9 or PR – 12-F. These lifts are allegedly manufactured in the US (but may, in fact, be built in China). Those examined did not have a CE mark attached. Each has a unique serial number and date of manufacture with some lifts dating back to 2001."
John it is off topic, this thread is about a new product that bend pak is bringing to market, if you want to talk about those locks or other issues then start your own thread.
Falcon67
Well-known member
This model has two heights, the lower is 11' 9" so you might be able to take a hair off the top, like a barber.
https://www.derekweaver.com/rodders-garage/2-post-lifts/weaver-w-9d-overhead-2-post-car-lift/
Or, use a floor plate style lift.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
Opinions vary.
JSK is the one that posted statements about the quality of the Bend Pak product. In this forum, these things are discussed to help out folks buying / using these products.
There are numerous threads here on GJ outlining issues, both recent and old, with Bend Pak products. Those are from actual fellow forum members who are Bend Pak owners / users. Many have provided in depth details showing the issues.
It may be indelicate to ask if this has been resolved.. but it needs to be asked when a Health and Safety organization states "In the opinion of the Specialist Inspector, the arms were not capable of locking on many of the lifts examined because the manufacturing quality was inadequate."
http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sims/manuf/3_08_12.htm
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
ok John enough said, I just didn't want to see the thread turn into a Bendpak bashing thread before JSK got to explain there new products and pricing.
I will say I have not experienced any of those issues with my XPR 10CX.
A report outlining quality issues is brought up to a Bend Pak sales rep. who is talking about a new product.
It also eludes to Bend Pak mislabeling of foreign products as made in US.
How exactly is that off topic?
"labelled as Bend Pak or Ranger and painted Navy blue. Model numbers vary but the majority are either PR-9 or PR – 12-F. These lifts are allegedly manufactured in the US (but may, in fact, be built in China). Those examined did not have a CE mark attached. Each has a unique serial number and date of manufacture with some lifts dating back to 2001."
Although this thread probably is not the best place to talk about arm restraints, I guess it’s as good as any. I don’t get offended when topics like this are brought up. Hopefully I can offer insight and raise awareness.
BendPak is one of the largest selling lift brands in the UK. The arm restraints referenced in the HSE report are much older designs made prior to the now mandated EN 1493 standard. They were manufactured by BendPak in California at the time and were being sold as “USA made” because they were – and they were ALI certified. The images below would have been around 2000 – 2002 when our PR models were being made here at our headquarters in Santa Paula, CA and sold in the UK. That’s me in the black flannel. You can see lifts in vary stages of production.
Arm restraints are to restrain the arms from moving during normal arm positioning procedures as the operator crawls on the floor and locates the arms on the vehicle chassis. They also prevent operators from bumping into them inadvertently and shifting them out of position in the event one of the arms is not carrying its share of the load. Inevitably however, if/when a vehicle fall occurs, and after the dust settles, “investigators” often show up and point to the arm restraint components claiming the reason for the fall. They always fail to point out one key element however like what caused the vehicle to shift in the first place.
The “HSE Specialist Mechanical Inspector” referenced in the report was probably correct in stating that many of the units inspected were defective or inoperable, but there are many varying factors that could influence proper operation such as damage, improper adjustment, lubrication, etc.
They also quote…”An HSE Specialist Mechanical Inspector carried out an investigation after a vehicle fell from a 2-post lift when the AMLS (automatic mechanical locking system) failed to engage.” Really? That is the only thing that contributed to the fall? Read the entire report and you won’t find any mention of one other unique and very likely factor that contributes to vehicle falls in the UK. Almost every two-post lift sold in the UK is a base frame or floor plate model. Virtually every workshop in the UK uses two-post lifts with “humps” on the floor. Yes, even in workshops with ceilings 14’ or greater. A British case of monkey-see-monkey-do. Why would that be influential? Because a two-post lift with no overhead beam to maintain parallelism of the columns needs to be carefully maintained. Imagine what happens to contact pads supporting a vehicle if, as they ascend, creep closer together? Think loosened or improperly torqued anchors.
The UK is trying to point the finger at lift manufacturers for vehicles falling off of lifts yet the majority of vehicles fall because of negligence due to improper loading of the lift and the lack of frame cradle pads being used. Their claim for the cause is because of faulty arm “locks”. Yes, they actually refer to them as locks. The North American ALCTV standard borne by professional engineers, purposely refers to these devices as arm “restraints” and for a very good reason.
Some believe that arm restraints are designed to stand firm as a heavy vehicle is falling at velocity which is inaccurate. The North American ANSI/ALI ALCTV-2011 lateral load-holding requirement for these components is 150-pounds with the arms fully extended. The European CE standard is 4.5 % of the capacity of the lift. These forces are assumed to act horizontally at the load carrying points with the arms fully extended. When a truck is falling at velocity and leveraging a fully extended arm(s), one could surmise that the exerted side load (pushing forces) would well exceed 1000 pounds.
Some critical safety tips for all lift operators to follow;
• Do not attempt to lift trucks or other frame type vehicles with standard rubber contact pads. Frame-cradle pads should always be used.
• It is absolutely critical that the lift adapters have been positioned according to the vehicles factory-recommended lifting points.
• The contact pads should always be been positioned at the factory recommended lifting points with the center of gravity midway between adapters.
• A vehicle loaded improperly on a two-post lift can shift then fall.
• Inoperable arm restraints should be investigated for proper adjustment or replacement if damage is apparent. The gears although not fully engaged may still perform as intended if, when the arm starts to move laterally in any direction, they fall into place.
Side note: Just as culpable in this matter would surely be nonsensical vehicle manufacturers who continually spend 99.99% of their time designing a car or truck and exactly .01% of their time purposefully designing a safe and dedicated location on the vehicle chassis specifically engineered to accommodate a car lift contact pad.
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kgp50
Member
This thread has been a good read. I strongly suspect there is a market segment that will respond very favorably to the new lift offering. Also appreciate the questions and efforts to provide detailed answers related to product manufacturing and safety. Having recently purchased, and now actively using a BP XPR-10S, I've been impressed with product quality and very happy with its operation. And yes, price-point was a large part of my decision to go BendPak. Now, as for those installation instructions... 
The 2 car side of my garage is 99" at it's highest point while being 86.75" at its lowest due to a beam that runs from L to R for HVAC ducting...I LOVE my garage being finished off and heated since the PO's used it as living space, but it screws me on height. My 1 car garage is maybe a few inches taller since it's not finished off. I'm all for a good deal if it'll be cheaper than MaxJax, I just need to find a lift that'll fit as well.
Attachments
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Falcon67
Well-known member
That could also be called "being careful" or acting in a professional manner when positioning a vehicle. I would think most careful operators would do what I do - position the arms, double check with another walk around, lift until the arms support the vehicle, check/verify positions again, lift.
This thread has been a good read. I strongly suspect there is a market segment that will respond very favorably to the new lift offering. Also appreciate the questions and efforts to provide detailed answers related to product manufacturing and safety. Having recently purchased, and now actively using a BP XPR-10S, I've been impressed with product quality and very happy with its operation. And yes, price-point was a large part of my decision to go BendPak. Now, as for those installation instructions...
Understood and always a work in progress. Our manuals will continue to improve.
cullen
Well-known member
I like that this lift is narrower than others but with the ram in the top beam, wouldn't it be harder to install?
On a regular lift,you can install the top beam with a couple guys on ladders. On the Grandprix it looks like it may need a forklift or overhead crane?
On a regular lift,you can install the top beam with a couple guys on ladders. On the Grandprix it looks like it may need a forklift or overhead crane?
bradysdad
Well-known member
I am in process of building a garage. (25'x60' with 14' ceilings, 6" concrete floors). This lift is appealing because I can position it towards the back of the shop and still place a 4 post next to it.
When the group buy is available, can the shipping/delivery be delayed? Would put deposit or pay in full for the group buy, but would need delayed shipping. Reason being, my shop will be done in May and I am assuming this group buy will happen well ahead of that timeframe.
Thanks for the great information...excellent thread!
When the group buy is available, can the shipping/delivery be delayed? Would put deposit or pay in full for the group buy, but would need delayed shipping. Reason being, my shop will be done in May and I am assuming this group buy will happen well ahead of that timeframe.
Thanks for the great information...excellent thread!
bradysdad
Well-known member
Forgot to ask, any reputable installers in the Milwaukee/SE Wisconsin area?
Getusum111
Member
Thank you JSK for your posts. I worked in a Ford dealership for many years and I appreciate the quality of your products. Your long post about the China transition confirms what I've always assumed. I hope to one day have an XPR lift in my shop at home.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
Although this thread probably is not the best place to talk about arm restraints, I guess it’s as good as any. I don’t get offended when topics like this are brought up. Hopefully I can offer insight and raise awareness.
BendPak is one of the largest selling lift brands in the UK. The arm restraints referenced in the HSE report are much older designs made prior to the now mandated EN 1493 standard. They were manufactured by BendPak in California at the time and were being sold as “USA made” because they were – and they were ALI certified. The images below would have been around 2000 – 2002 when our PR models were being made here at our headquarters in Santa Paula, CA and sold in the UK. That’s me in the black flannel. You can see lifts in vary stages of production.
Arm restraints are to restrain the arms from moving during normal arm positioning procedures as the operator crawls on the floor and locates the arms on the vehicle chassis. They also prevent operators from bumping into them inadvertently and shifting them out of position in the event one of the arms is not carrying its share of the load. Inevitably however, if/when a vehicle fall occurs, and after the dust settles, “investigators” often show up and point to the arm restraint components claiming the reason for the fall. They always fail to point out one key element however like what caused the vehicle to shift in the first place.
The “HSE Specialist Mechanical Inspector” referenced in the report was probably correct in stating that many of the units inspected were defective or inoperable, but there are many varying factors that could influence proper operation such as damage, improper adjustment, lubrication, etc.
They also quote…”An HSE Specialist Mechanical Inspector carried out an investigation after a vehicle fell from a 2-post lift when the AMLS (automatic mechanical locking system) failed to engage.” Really? That is the only thing that contributed to the fall? Read the entire report and you won’t find any mention of one other unique and very likely factor that contributes to vehicle falls in the UK. Almost every two-post lift sold in the UK is a base frame or floor plate model. Virtually every workshop in the UK uses two-post lifts with “humps” on the floor. Yes, even in workshops with ceilings 14’ or greater. A British case of monkey-see-monkey-do. Why would that be influential? Because a two-post lift with no overhead beam to maintain parallelism of the columns needs to be carefully maintained. Imagine what happens to contact pads supporting a vehicle if, as they ascend, creep closer together? Think loosened or improperly torqued anchors.
The UK is trying to point the finger at lift manufacturers for vehicles falling off of lifts yet the majority of vehicles fall because of negligence due to improper loading of the lift and the lack of frame cradle pads being used. Their claim for the cause is because of faulty arm “locks”. Yes, they actually refer to them as locks. The North American ALCTV standard borne by professional engineers, purposely refers to these devices as arm “restraints” and for a very good reason.
Some believe that arm restraints are designed to stand firm as a heavy vehicle is falling at velocity which is inaccurate. The North American ANSI/ALI ALCTV-2011 lateral load-holding requirement for these components is 150-pounds with the arms fully extended. The European CE standard is 4.5 % of the capacity of the lift. These forces are assumed to act horizontally at the load carrying points with the arms fully extended. When a truck is falling at velocity and leveraging a fully extended arm(s), one could surmise that the exerted side load (pushing forces) would well exceed 1000 pounds.
Some critical safety tips for all lift operators to follow;
• Do not attempt to lift trucks or other frame type vehicles with standard rubber contact pads. Frame-cradle pads should always be used.
• It is absolutely critical that the lift adapters have been positioned according to the vehicles factory-recommended lifting points.
• The contact pads should always be been positioned at the factory recommended lifting points with the center of gravity midway between adapters.
• A vehicle loaded improperly on a two-post lift can shift then fall.
• Inoperable arm restraints should be investigated for proper adjustment or replacement if damage is apparent. The gears although not fully engaged may still perform as intended if, when the arm starts to move laterally in any direction, they fall into place.
Side note: Just as culpable in this matter would surely be nonsensical vehicle manufacturers who continually spend 99.99% of their time designing a car or truck and exactly .01% of their time purposefully designing a safe and dedicated location on the vehicle chassis specifically engineered to accommodate a car lift contact pad.
Thanks for writing and updating this.. very helpful.
jackson1701
Well-known member
Some critical safety tips for all lift operators to follow; • Do not attempt to lift trucks or other frame type vehicles with standard rubber contact pads. Frame-cradle pads should always be used. • It is absolutely critical that the lift adapters have been positioned according to the vehicles factory-recommended lifting points. • The contact pads should always be been positioned at the factory recommended lifting points with the center of gravity midway between adapters. • A vehicle loaded improperly on a two-post lift can shift then fall. • Inoperable arm restraints should be investigated for proper adjustment or replacement if damage is apparent. The gears although not fully engaged may still perform as intended if said:
lakeroadster
Well-known member
Caveat Emptor
My Rotary came with three-position flip-up frame engaging adapters as standard... no rubber pads. The rubber pads are the options.
That being said the manufacturer expects the user to read the manual and use the appropriate adapters, based on what is being lifted.
Or put another way, read the data they sent you and buy what you need to lift your style vehicle(s).
The alternative is for the manufacturer to supply, as standard, every possible adapter. That's just not cost-effective, or realistic with all that is available. http://www.rotarylift.com/uploadedfiles/pdfs/FAQ8.pdf
My Rotary came with three-position flip-up frame engaging adapters as standard... no rubber pads. The rubber pads are the options.
That being said the manufacturer expects the user to read the manual and use the appropriate adapters, based on what is being lifted.
Or put another way, read the data they sent you and buy what you need to lift your style vehicle(s).
The alternative is for the manufacturer to supply, as standard, every possible adapter. That's just not cost-effective, or realistic with all that is available. http://www.rotarylift.com/uploadedfiles/pdfs/FAQ8.pdf
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cthulu
Well-known member
Damn, the gp-7lc would have been perfect. Too bad I already have the rtp9 setup. Really wish I had a clear floor lift as that bump is always getting in the way.
DadOfSix
New member
I have this:
Atlas BP8000 Baseplate 8,000 lbs. Capacity 2 Post Lift from www.gregsmithequipment.com/
9 foot base plate lift.
I was able to pick it up at their Austin, Texas location and save on freight.
Installed in a leisurely day.
This lifts my 1969 convertible Mustang high enough that I can walk under it at most parts. Got to look out for steering / suspension parts!
I have 10' 2" ceiling height that I had to contend with, and this lift has worked fine. Have just about completed a complete suspension and steering rebuild.
Next up is rear differential.
Keith
Atlas BP8000 Baseplate 8,000 lbs. Capacity 2 Post Lift from www.gregsmithequipment.com/
9 foot base plate lift.
I was able to pick it up at their Austin, Texas location and save on freight.
Installed in a leisurely day.
This lifts my 1969 convertible Mustang high enough that I can walk under it at most parts. Got to look out for steering / suspension parts!
I have 10' 2" ceiling height that I had to contend with, and this lift has worked fine. Have just about completed a complete suspension and steering rebuild.
Next up is rear differential.
Keith
RAYJAY
Well-known member
found this on youtube
BendPak GrandPrix GP-7LCS 2 Post Lift Installed in My Garage!
BendPak GrandPrix GP-7LCS 2 Post Lift Installed in My Garage!
jackson1701
Well-known member
Re: Caveat Emptor
Lakeroadster, I wasn't asking for every adapter option, you're missing the point, just stating that the frame cradles should come standard with all two post lifts. Make the rubber pads an option like in your case if worried about the cost. As far as being cost effective, they can be added into the price of the lift. Again SAFETY and the frame cradles outweigh the standard rubber pads. I would bet that most folks also use their lift to lift a truck at some point or another.
Lakeroadster, I wasn't asking for every adapter option, you're missing the point, just stating that the frame cradles should come standard with all two post lifts. Make the rubber pads an option like in your case if worried about the cost. As far as being cost effective, they can be added into the price of the lift. Again SAFETY and the frame cradles outweigh the standard rubber pads. I would bet that most folks also use their lift to lift a truck at some point or another.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
Re: Caveat Emptor
The best option would be no adapters at all, just bare arms with holes in them.
Then the end user would have to buy what they need based on their vehicle.
The best option would be no adapters at all, just bare arms with holes in them.
Then the end user would have to buy what they need based on their vehicle.
longez
Well-known member
Re: Caveat Emptor
^^^ THIS ^^^ My Rotary SPOA10 Trio was sold to me with one set of adaptors (my choice) included; other sets were optional and extra cost. I had Rotary supply the rubber pads as "standard", and a set of truck frame adaptors at additional cost.
^^^ THIS ^^^ My Rotary SPOA10 Trio was sold to me with one set of adaptors (my choice) included; other sets were optional and extra cost. I had Rotary supply the rubber pads as "standard", and a set of truck frame adaptors at additional cost.
Jackson,
All of our heavy-duty two post models (12K and above) come standard with frame cradle pads. Frame cradle pads are optional on all 10K and below models however. I personally would love to include them standard and probably will when all other suppliers do same. We're trying to compete in a market where $100.00 makes a difference in a sale or not. People today are so caught up on the sticker price without really comparing true value.
JK
jwdominick
Well-known member
Is there an eta yet on the 2 shorter models? I am seriously interested in the mid height model
Simple question for use in garage with 9' ceiling, 4" 3500psi floor although true depth is unknown until some holes are drilled.
What will be the floor to frame height with a C2 -C3 corvette, about 4' high?
Also would like to know when the 9' lifts will be available and if there is a network of installers around the country. By the time I rent a forklift or get buddies together it would be easier to hire an experience, equipped contractor to install it.
I was very close to going to a Maxjack but this may offer more height and stopping points in between floor and max position.
Thank you
What will be the floor to frame height with a C2 -C3 corvette, about 4' high?
Also would like to know when the 9' lifts will be available and if there is a network of installers around the country. By the time I rent a forklift or get buddies together it would be easier to hire an experience, equipped contractor to install it.
I was very close to going to a Maxjack but this may offer more height and stopping points in between floor and max position.
Thank you
Makoto
Well-known member
more like 10 foot ceilings.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
This quote came to mind..
An engine hoist, some basic skills, a step ladder and your good to go. Might have to rent a hammer drill $40 / day + $7 / day for the correct size bit.
The other thing to keep in mind, gtr1999, is that some of the so called "certified installers" are hacks. Have you seen this thread? Here is my rant about my lift installers
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