Gauging Interest in New Screwdriver Set

[Drive]

Hi Guys,

I am wanting to find out if you would be interested in a new screwdriver set with changeable handles. They would be machined, not stamped, and Made in America. The advantages would be:

1. Organized -- will come with a nice fabric or leather case with all the shafts neatly lined up and easy-to-find
2. Save space not having to store lots of redundant handles for infrequently-used drivers.
3. Fit into places where 1/4" driver bits can't. So frustrating when you have the right bit, but can't use it because the screw is down in a hole or recess.

And, most importantly:

4. Heirloom, premium quality. The driver tips will be machined, not stamped, so they will fit beautifully into the fastener they're driving, instead of the "kind of sort of" fit that's typical and which we've all sadly gotten used to. And they'll be hard and durable, not soft and, well, junk, as most screwdrivers are nowadays (even old, trusted brands like Craftsman). For the handles, there's lots of possibilities, but for the first run I want to make them from good, old-fashioned wood (unless I get feedback from here for something different people would prefer even more). No smell, and it can last for hundreds of years. In contrast, all polymers will eventually deteriorate, is my understanding.

I have designed it out and have got a prototype made at a local machine shop. I have also exhaustively researched what it out there, screwdriver-wise, and I'll tell you, this is going to better than anything else on the market (IMO). I am excited about this project and just want to make sure and confirm that there will be a good market for such a thing. And what better place to ask than here?

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks, guys.

 

[L.Cheapo]

Honestly, I would not be interested. I have too many screwdrivers already, including my favorite hard handle Snap Ons, and I don't like wood handles. I wish you the best in your endeavor, however.

 

[Drive]

Hey, thanks, L. That is great feedback! Exactly what I'm looking for.

 

[M6erfan]

Welcome.

Looking at the "advantages" listed, aren't there literally dozens of good quality sets out there? PB Swiss, Wiha, etc...

Maybe made in the USA & wood handles sets yours apart...

Personally I would pass, I go for integrated handles whenever possible. Besides, what will the techs fill their $10k tool chest drawers with?

 

[Davefr]

The market is already flooded with premium quality/mass produced screwdrivers.

In addition, screwdrivers are a consumable product with a limited lifetime when put to use.

I just don't think there would be much market for a heirloom quality (ie premium priced) screwdriver. Where and how would you market them?

 

[R_einan]

Not against the idea, personally. Depending on cost I might find them a useful space saver. But I have hundres of screwdrivers and bits for multiple bit drivers, so it would be a hard sell. Might find a market in the gunsmith area, those in the trade are very particular about how a screwdriver fits in a fastener.

 

[creativecars]

I have seen premium drivers like this in wood working shops, where they appreciate the qualities of fine woods and craftsmanship. Not so much in the mechanic, or hobby shop. These would not fair to well when dropped in antifreeze, covered with oil or used as a chisel.

 

[ssdave]

I'll pass. Wood handles I avoid at all costs. I really dislike changeable shafts, I want strong, well anchored shafts in durable plastic handles. Mac and Snap-on have got it down with their hard handles; as do hundreds of other manufacturers.

If you can figure out to reach the small portion of the market that wants an interchangeable handle set, and even more so, the subset of those that prefer wood handles, and your price is low enough, you may have a niche market success.

You're entering into a mature market, with hundreds of competing manufacturers making some of the best products that have ever been available, at mass produced prices. Even if your product is as good as Wera, Snap-on, SK, or MAC, can you produce, market, and deliver it for the same or lower cost?

I don't think that you can improve on the quality of the top brands, so it will be boiling down to competing on cost, or on the features of a wood handle and interchangeable shanks. And, people have become accustomed to equating interchangeable shanks with cheap, low quality asian import products.

 

[Alchymist]

Already out there. i have several sets, including nut drivers, allen, phillips, standard, an awl, etc, all interchangeable with a single handle. top quality, quite common in the electronics trade.

 

[noid]

 

[HanShotFirst]

I’m a gunsmith, and what I really want is an heirloom quality “working” screwdriver. I can use an heirloom quality screwdriver every day, and it won’t get trashed, so what you’re talking about, is something I would love to have.

I have a set of Grace hollow ground screwdrivers and they’re pretty decent. I also custom file (never grind because it builds up heat and you have to re-heat treat the blade) interchangeable bits to fit what I’m working on.

Grace Gunsmith Screwdrivers

What I like about Grace screwdrivers.
1 - Very good quality
2 - Handles feel great to me
3 - Hollow ground, but I rarely break a tip; meaning their heat treated & tempering are about ideal (in 25 years I have broken about 4 tips…that’s damn good in my book)
4 – Square shaft full width – The smaller hollow ground screwdrivers will break eventually; it’s just the nature of the beast. Square shaft obviously let’s me put a wrench, but more importantly, when it’s a full width shaft I can re-file/machine the screwdriver, so I’m not out a screwdriver; just a little time to re-make the tip.

What I don’t like about Grace screwdrivers
1 – They are just plain “working” screwdrivers. I’d love to have a set of heirloom quality.
2 – Handles are quite comfortable for me, but they’re not pretty at all.
3 – For every driver they make, I’d love to have an option of one with 2-3” more inches of shaft length.

What would I like in a fine quality gunsmith screwdriver?

Hollow ground and tapered available in each size
Ergonomic handle ( there’s the tough one right? I actually like Grace’s handles, Felo’s wood handles are great too)
Smooth machined tips (For enhanced tips, blasted-striations, I’ll just reach for my Wera’s)
Square shaft at least full width the entire length.
Highly polished shafts, and heirloom aesthetic handles (fine wood, burl, horn, etc.)

I think your real market would be wood workers, but there is a larger market for gunsmith screwdrivers than you would think.

 

[woody 73]

I go out of my way to buy wood handled screwdrivers, just wish I could find ones made out some exotic wood like Snake wood, African wood, Blood wood, Cocobolo, etc. I could see not much interest in fixing cars but wood working shops, or say for gun repair.

Best of luck.

 

[sk farmer]

i think it is a pretty good idea. you are just not hitting the best crowd here. there a few basic types of members here. that are the majority of the members.

snap-on mechanic types that want nothing else.

those that buy mostly and price. and getting the job done.

tool polishers that like to collect tools.

none of those three are your market. that said, woodworkers, gunsmiths, people that work on precision things and collectors are. those people are here, just the minority. you may get better response on a forum aimed more at them.

 

[buffalobill]

I’m a gunsmith, and what I really want is an heirloom quality “working” screwdriver. I can use an heirloom quality screwdriver every day, and it won’t get trashed, so what you’re talking about, is something I would love to have.

I have a set of Grace hollow ground screwdrivers and they’re pretty decent. I also custom file (never grind because it builds up heat and you have to re-heat treat the blade) interchangeable bits to fit what I’m working on.

Grace Gunsmith Screwdrivers

What I like about Grace screwdrivers.
1 - Very good quality
2 - Handles feel great to me
3 - Hollow ground, but I rarely break a tip; meaning their heat treated & tempering are about ideal (in 25 years I have broken about 4 tips…that’s damn good in my book)
4 – Square shaft full width – The smaller hollow ground screwdrivers will break eventually; it’s just the nature of the beast. Square shaft obviously let’s me put a wrench, but more importantly, when it’s a full width shaft I can re-file/machine the screwdriver, so I’m not out a screwdriver; just a little time to re-make the tip.

What I don’t like about Grace screwdrivers
1 – They are just plain “working” screwdrivers. I’d love to have a set of heirloom quality.
2 – Handles are quite comfortable for me, but they’re not pretty at all.
3 – For every driver they make, I’d love to have an option of one with 2-3” more inches of shaft length.

What would I like in a fine quality gunsmith screwdriver?

Hollow ground and tapered available in each size
Ergonomic handle ( there’s the tough one right? I actually like Grace’s handles, Felo’s wood handles are great too)
Smooth machined tips (For enhanced tips, blasted-striations, I’ll just reach for my Wera’s)
Square shaft at least full width the entire length.
Highly polished shafts, and heirloom aesthetic handles (fine wood, burl, horn, etc.)

I think your real market would be wood workers, but there is a larger market for gunsmith screwdrivers than you would think.

Have you tried the Brownell set of screwdrivers? I used to have a set, very nice stuff, they send you a grinder bit so if you snap the tip, you can fix it.

 

[woody 73]

I have a nice set of vintage wooden handle Mac Screwdrivers, (a few from as late as 1939 and into the early 1940's for you to see:

 

[Drive]

Welcome.

Looking at the "advantages" listed, aren't there literally dozens of good quality sets out there? PB Swiss, Wiha, etc...

Personally I would pass, I go for integrated handles whenever possible.

The way my handle-shaft interface works, it will be the same as an integrated handle in use. It will fit snugly -- solid, no wobble, no play, just as if it were one solid piece. In fact, you could use them just as an integrated shaft, just get a handle for every shaft and leave them on.

Yes, PB Swiss, Wiha, Wera, Snap-On, and various others make good quality screwdrivers, though some of it is perception more than actual quality. But, perception matters: if there is no felt need for higher quality screwdrivers, if everyone thinks the already available screwdrivers are great, or good enough, perhaps this would not be the right marketing approach to take?

Maybe made in the USA & wood handles sets yours apart...

Maybe. But maybe not. Good thoughts, thanks.

Besides, what will the techs fill their $10k tool chest drawers with?

But you can't strap the chest to your back and take it with you everywhere, to every job!

Or can you? Would let you skip the gym, I guess!

 

[Drive]

The market is already flooded with premium quality/mass produced screwdrivers.

Well, I would maybe disagree a bit with the "premium" part. But you might be right. The market doesn't care what I think, nor necessarily about alloy types and the like. If it seems premium to the market, then, well, it is!

In addition, screwdrivers are a consumable product with a limited lifetime when put to use.

Right, and that's one of the advantages with my idea. How many times is it the handle that fails? Pretty rare. Handle's still perfectly good. Why pay for another one? Just buy a replacement shaft and pop it in!

I just don't think there would be much market for a heirloom quality (ie premium priced) screwdriver. Where and how would you market them?

Well, my original idea was actually more on the affordability side of things. See, yes you can get the $10 9-piece screwdriver sets, but then if you need a single driver, because you lost it, or it broke, or it's a funky type you haven't run into before, that single driver will often be almost $10 too -- as much as a whole new set!

Plus it won't match the rest of your set, and that is slightly annoying. You end up with a hodgepodge toolbox instead of a thing of beauty.

So if you could buy just the bare shaft for, say, $3, because you're saving the cost of the handle, and then plus it's all part of one integrated set... that would be cool!

But how to market it, I don't know. Maybe a Kickstarter campaign?

 

[Drive]

Not against the idea, personally. Depending on cost I might find them a useful space saver. But I have hundres of screwdrivers and bits for multiple bit drivers, so it would be a hard sell. Might find a market in the gunsmith area, those in the trade are very particular about how a screwdriver fits in a fastener.

Cool, thanks for the feedback. Yeah, it might make the most sense for young guys, starting out, who don't already have a good set (much less hundreds!) of screwdrivers.

 

[PT Doc]

I think that replaceable bits are great. Very versatile.

 

[Drive]

I have seen premium drivers like this in wood working shops, where they appreciate the qualities of fine woods and craftsmanship. Not so much in the mechanic, or hobby shop. These would not fair to well when dropped in antifreeze, covered with oil or used as a chisel.

A good point!

I am thinking that there could be a few sizes of chisels too, though. Not in the core basic set, but as an option. The metal goes all the way through to the top of the handle like a chisel (and like "perfect handle" screwdrivers, though a bit different), so it would totally work.

Big picture is that if it is successful, I can expand the line and eventually you could have one matching set for all your tools with screwdriver-type handles (nutdrivers, awls, scrapers, and on and on).

 

[Drive]

I'll pass. Wood handles I avoid at all costs. I really dislike changeable shafts, I want strong, well anchored shafts in durable plastic handles. Mac and Snap-on have got it down with their hard handles; as do hundreds of other manufacturers.

If you can figure out to reach the small portion of the market that wants an interchangeable handle set, and even more so, the subset of those that prefer wood handles, and your price is low enough, you may have a niche market success.

You're entering into a mature market, with hundreds of competing manufacturers making some of the best products that have ever been available, at mass produced prices. Even if your product is as good as Wera, Snap-on, SK, or MAC, can you produce, market, and deliver it for the same or lower cost?

I don't think that you can improve on the quality of the top brands, so it will be boiling down to competing on cost...

I'm confident I can! But you make some good points, for sure.

I will put you down as a thumbs-down.

Getting lots of thumbs-down here! But that's good feedback, that's the whole point -- better to realize it's not that compelling of an idea before launching than to spend thousands of dollars producing them and then have a product that's a dud.

So keep the feedback coming, even or especially if your answer is no!

 

[davethorik]

If you're going to go in business based solely on screwdrivers, I'd keep your day job.

I like your concept because I enjoy quality tools. However I think you should offer a plastic handle along with the wood. No mechanic is going to want wood handles. Perhaps something exotic, like a carbon fiber with rubber comfort grip overlay. I'd recomment hollow ground tips to fit slotted drivers better, and perhaps an ACR or diamond coated Philips to set it apart from cheaper drivers. Get the steel formulation and heat treating perfected before you sell so much as 1 set, so no one will have negative things to say about tip quality. Advertise what metal you make them out of, if it isn't a proprietary secret.

Biggest advice, make how the tips interface with the handle bulletproof. No slop. Make it easy to use.

 

[Gmonkee]

I like wood handles and tips that just don't wear out.

I have both, but not on the same screwdrivers.

COO doesn't bother me much but premium pricing could, depending on how high is premium.

Features I would look twice at for premium product is semi exotic woods known to be water resistant and blades interchange with other known systems.
For example my old CH (Mex brand) can use Oxwall blades but currently has a blade from a Stanley regular driver in it. The handle had broken and it fit with a tiny bit of cutting.

Polished brass, ferrule and clamping nut like on my 6o year old CH. It never rusted solid despite horrible care in the past. I was able to remove a rusted to **** shaft and use the handle again.

Nothing too exotic or special to just your product that I cannot adapt in a pinch. I may not be able to order one and wait a week to deliver a job.
My Tenhigh uses a unique ball retention system that loosely holds 1/4" detent bits for power screwdrivers. Useful if a bit sloppy in use. But with tips from a local it -could- be Robertson square drivers or torx without downtime.

Your bits of course would be to a higher standard thus worth getting later on.

Look at Chapman and how they are in the precision screwdriver market. You are aiming a bit differently (which is good) but it's a model that works.

 

[Drive]

Already out there. i have several sets, including nut drivers, allen, phillips, standard, an awl, etc, all interchangeable with a single handle. top quality, quite common in the electronics trade.

Yes, true! Though you'll have to admit, that Vaco set isn't exactly in active production any more, now is it?

Yeah, electronics is the only field I'd say where interchangeable shafts are still commonly(ish -- not all that commonly) seen. But nowhere else, I don't know why. It's kind of one of those ideas that was really good (IMO) but just fell by the wayside and was somehow forgotten.

I have a bunch of Excelite, which is good..... but not super-good.

Plus, they haven't updated anything since the 1970s. I don't even know if they're actually still in production, the few places selling them might just be using up existing inventory. So there's none of the drivers that have become popular in the last 40 years and would actually be really useful, such as Torx and Robertson.

 

[Drive]

That is a beautiful set.

 

[M6erfan]

The way my handle-shaft interface works, it will be the same as an integrated handle in use. It will fit snugly -- solid, no wobble, no play, just as if it were one solid piece. In fact, you could use them just as an integrated shaft, just get a handle for every shaft and leave them on.

Yes, PB Swiss, Wiha, Wera, Snap-On, and various others make good quality screwdrivers, though some of it is perception more than actual quality. But, perception matters: if there is no felt need for higher quality screwdrivers, if everyone thinks the already available screwdrivers are great, or good enough, perhaps this would not be the right marketing approach to take?

I'm not sure. You didn't mention any hardening or treating or even the type of steel your screwdrivers will have. Nor anything unique in your shaft/handle interface. Or the type of grinds on the tips.

I'm definitely not the market you are looking for. I dont do any fine wood working and the casual gun smithing I do I'm covered on my screwdrivers. I'm not in the market for exotic wood or animal horn, etc. I have a Wiha driver kit that's over 2 decades old and I barely ever use it. Can't remember the last time actually... The quality is fine, I just prefer integrated handle/shafts, I'm not a mobile technician and hardly ever pack up my tools to take with me.

Sounds like there is a market though from some of the responses here, so best of luck out there

 

[Drive]

I'll have to pass.
This is 12 bucks.
I don't think you're going to get much more designer/oldworld/craftsman than this handle.
Real brass, real wood, real engraving plate set to match the grain.

How will you compete with a company willing to lose 200 percent on every sale just to fill a gap in their offerings?

Click the picture, then click it again for a full size zoomable picture.

Hmm, that's not Lee Valley's... where is that handle from, Ducksface? That does sound like an amazing deal.

 

[Drive]

What would I like in a fine quality gunsmith screwdriver?

Hollow ground and tapered available in each size
Ergonomic handle ( there’s the tough one right? I actually like Grace’s handles, Felo’s wood handles are great too)
Smooth machined tips (For enhanced tips, blasted-striations, I’ll just reach for my Wera’s)
Square shaft at least full width the entire length.
Highly polished shafts, and heirloom aesthetic handles (fine wood, burl, horn, etc.)

I think your real market would be wood workers, but there is a larger market for gunsmith screwdrivers than you would think.

Cool, thanks. Great ideas. Yeah, woodworkers would like the wood handles more for sure.

 

[Drive]

I go out of my way to buy wood handled screwdrivers, just wish I could find ones made out some exotic wood like Snake wood, African wood, Blood wood, Cocobolo, etc.

Oh yeah, so many cool woods out there.

Check these out (no, not mine):

 

[Drive]

I have a nice set of vintage wooden handle Mac Screwdrivers, (a few from as late as 1939 and into the early 1940's for you to see:

Thanks, very nice!

 

[Drive]

Nor anything unique in your shaft/handle interface.

It's pretty unique (at least for screwdrivers). It'll be much more solid, like a single piece, but very easy to remove also.

Or the type of grinds on the tips.

Hollow-ground for the flat-head tips, obviously. No point to machining them, otherwise.

Sounds like there is a market though from some of the responses here, so best of luck out there

I would say thus far the response has been ambiguous, and probably leaning towards the negative side. Which is definitely informative.

Thanks for the well wishes.

 

[Drive]

It's from Rocklers.
I'm not sure it's in the catalog. Might be an in store only thing.

Thanks! I haven't seen it in the store by me. Might have to go by and look for it. It sure is a nice-looking handle. Hard to believe they'd sell the whole assembly for $12. As you say, they must be losing money on it.

 

[Davefr]

I'll have to pass.
This is 12 bucks.
I don't think you're going to get much more designer/oldworld/craftsman than this handle.
Real brass, real wood, real engraving plate set to match the grain.

How will you compete with a company willing to lose 200 percent on every sale just to fill a gap in their offerings?

Click the picture, then click it again for a full size zoomable picture.

LOL, I have the same one. It's engraved Sheffield on the badge but came from China. I think Amazon was selling them cheap a few years ago. It really is a nice handle.

 

[American Locomotive]

Have you thought about some kind of composite wood? I just got some of the Vessel composite wood screwdrivers, and they are awesome.

 

[Dave455]

O.P. -I sense that you don't have a huge amount of experience, but you do have enthusiasm, which is to be commended, so let me offer some constructive comments, if I can!

Firstly, you mentioned 'changeable handle'. That would imply one screwdriver blade with many handles. What I think you meant is 'interchangeable blade'.

Secondly, you refer to 'machined blades'. Bear in mind that screwdrivers really need to be forged, rather than machined, to get the strength required. This is why most screwdrivers come from larger firms who have in house forging. That doesn't mean you can't contract this out.

I'm old enough to have worked with wood handle drivers the first time around, and I've got to say it's not a practical material for a screwdriver handle. Sure, some guys, such as cabinet makers, who love their wood, are into them, but for all else it abrades too much.
Many screwdriver makers currently offer primarily 'soft finish' handles. They say they do this for the users comfort. This is what we Brits call '******* in my pocket and telling me it's raining'! The real reason they use the soft materials is that they are cheap. Good quality hard materials, be they of British or U.S. origins are relatively costly, but they are worth it!

Most mechanics are very happy with an 'interchangeable bit' driver. High quality bits abound, and when you wear them, which you do, they are inexpensive to replace. Even If I find myself working with mid - grade woodscrews with 'so so' Pozidrive heads, I reach for a bit driver first.

Interchangeable blade drivers have always been a bit more specialised and are generally favoured in industries where the blade tip needs to be fairly slim. Think of an electrician doing up a terminal screw in an insulated connector!

Other posters are correct in that there are a lot of similar tools out there. You mentioned that 'PB Swiss, Wiha, Wera and Snap On make good quality drivers' but 'some of it may be perception'. Well I can assure you that it isn't with regard to PB Swiss or Snap On. I've been turning screws for many decades, much of it in a production environment where you use one size day in day out, and there are no better screwdrivers out there than P.B. My 30 year old ball hex drivers, used regularly but still with no notable wear, rather prove this!

You essentially have two strategies open to you: -

1) Make a good quality interchangeable blade driver. If it really is good you will get a small slice of a big pie, so to speak. There is ALWAYS a market for good tools!

2) Consider offering something that the other makers don't. My suggestion here would be a Spiral Ratchet Screwdriver. Although made for decades, most manufacturers, in the latter years at least, insisted on making them cheaper and cheaper, which wasn't what the market wanted. Few makers put a decent 'Hard handle' on them, instead sticking with wood, or imitation wood, and none but Facom or Schroeder ever offerred them suitable for 1/4 inch hex bits! I have a lovely Facom, and a spare, but you won't find a new one!

Finally, lest you think I'm some catalogue reading gobshite with a tool fetish, let me share with you some pictures of some PB Swiss tools. Pictured are 1) Some hex bit drivers, both regular and clutch drive Multicraft. 2) Standard size interchangeable blade driver and blades. 3) Heavy duty interchangeable blade driver, ratchet unit, and blades. 4) Three Cross Handles - probably the most ergonomic tool ever produced. These are tough acts to follow.

 

[Dave455]

We'll try again with the rest of the pics!

 

[Dave455]

And again

 

[Dave455]

And lastly

 

[IndyGarage]

Dave gives some good advice above.

There are a couple things I disagree with: One is the hard handles vs soft. I dumped most of my hard handles for German soft handles - Felo, Wera and Wiha, because they were more comfortable in my hand.

Second disagreement is forging vs machining. The main advantage to forged bar is the reduction in voids over a casting, secondary is grain boundary strength. In very high quality - read expensive - forging, the tooling is designed to force strength in a particular direction, however I don't believe hand tools have that level of sophistication or cost - this is limited to Aero engine parts, landing gear, and the like. Machining a hot formed bar for the shaft should not give you considerably diminished properties.

I do like the look of those wood handles posted above, but I'm not one who's into tool looks - I really could care less about how they look, but I care a lot about how they work. If you could convince me that your tool performs better than anything else or at least as good as the best, then I will consider buying it.

The other challenge for me is interchangeable shafts. I don't really like tools like that for any reason other than you can fit a lot of drivers in a small space. This is good for portable tool sets, and I do have them for things like motorcycles, boats, and in my hand carry tool kits (I often have a 4 way or 6 way screwdriver in those kits) . My absolute favorite is this 1/4 drive Wera Zyklop kit, which can be used as a ratchet, a screwdriver and a bit driver all in one very compact kit:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VMWZLU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

In my shop I prefer fixed handles for two reasons: First, I change out tools continuously on the job - the extra step of installing the shaft is time consuming. Second, working on a large project is messy. I'll have tools all over my tool cart, on the floor, on the lift arm. I put them all away when the project is done, but while I'm on it, stuff is everywhere - I would lose individual tool shafts in that situation. I hate using bit drivers on a large project for that reason.

Third challenge is replacement. I buy a set of screwdrivers every few years. They break, the tips get damaged the handles get damaged. I've noticed considerably less breakage in recent years, which might indicate they are getting better - not sure if others have experienced this. I rarely buy a single screwdriver, but more often buy a new set and retire my old set to a backup status, then eventually they get discarded - thrown away, given away. If you have the best product in the world, and It's not my time to buy, then I'm not going to look at it. You have to have your product in front of me at the time I'm looking for it. This is the real challenge for any small manufacturer.

Bottom line: I think the OP has a decent idea, but the market for a product like he is considering is probably very narrow.

 

[BMack37]

This is one of the best sets I've ever bought.

Seems that there's several advantages over your idea. Security bits, useable in other bit drivers, powered screwdrivers, can be supplemented by other manufacturers.

1/4" hex is a must, that solves two of those issues.

Here's your real problem, in my opinion, I recommend that set all the time and people scoff at the $80+ price. There is no way you can make this for even close to that with less tips and excluding precision because of the tolerances.