Vehicle lift certification

[Ggg]

This started on another post, in order to prevent from hijacking the other thread I'm starting this one.
The intent here is to have a constructive discussion. No argument intended.
ALI is the most prominent here in the US. In Europe they have the CE certification. Are there any other vehicle lift certifications that I do not know? Are there pros or cons to the CE here in the US?

 

[lakeroadster]

http://www.autolift.org/Faq/question-number-three/

"The letters “CE” are the abbreviation of the French phrase “Conformité Européene” which literally means “European Conformity”. The term initially used was “EC Mark” and was officially replaced by “CE Marking” which is now used globally in all European Union (EU) official documents.

The CE Mark on a product or machine identifies it as complying with all the of safety requirements established by the European Union. In Europe, the CE Mark is a requirement and not a voluntary process; however, some countries in Europe require that their own mark is used and their standards are met.

One of the most notable differences between CE and ALI certification is in the area of electrical safety. ANSI/ALI ALCTV mandates testing to UL201, Standard for Safety for Garage Equipment, which is harmonized with the National Electric Code (NEC). CE electrical requirements are different and in no way ensure compliance with the NEC. An important consideration relating to CE approval of lifts installed in North America is that American and Canadian electrical officials do not accept CE Marking as evidence of compliance with required safety standards. Claims that “Lifts are CE approved” bear no relevance to North American lift purchasers. The CE lift standard, EN 1493 is not tougher than ANSI/ALI ALCTV, as some might claim when unable to offer lift models that are ALI certified.

Become an educated buyer – consider the risk of installing a vehicle lift bearing only a CE mark and the possibility that your shop will be “red tagged” for lifts not listed to North American safety standards."
_________________________________________________

The following linke is from an article byDerek WeaverCo. and is quite informative in regard to lift certification: https://www.derekweaver.com/learn/certified-car-lifts-behind-the-gold-label/

 

[Ggg]

I understand why and how it is that CE doesn't meet NEC standards. Just the same NEC standards mean nothing in the EU because their electric power is different than ours here in the USA. As far as any UL standard goes it is pretty much meaningless. In the trades UL is considered a conflict of interest. The person/company making the product being tested pays UL, also tells UL exactly how to test their product.
John do you care to explain this shop getting a "red tag" term? I have never heard of it, have you? That was a very nice cut and paste of some sales oriented descriptions. But what I looking for will never be found in sales literature. From an objective point of view is ALI truly superior to CE, and are there any other certification organizations.

 

[danb35]

At least with respect to electrical gear, one difference between CE and UL markings is that UL does require independent testing, while the manufacturer gets to self-certify for CE. That's why, if I'm going to use a DMM on a high-energy circuit, it's going to have a UL logo or some other independent testing seal, not just a CE mark. And yes, the manufacturers do pay for UL testing, but I don't believe it's correct that they get to tell UL how to do the test--UL has test protocols for anything they have a listing for, and those test protocols are what they follow. But UL is mostly irrelevant to this discussion, as they don't have a listing for auto lifts.

Unfortunately, the ad copy that @lakeroadster pulled from ALI's web site doesn't really say anything other than that they aren't the same thing (which we already knew). They say that the CE standard isn't tougher than their own standard, but that isn't close to the same as saying it's weaker. If it were the case with lifts (as it is for electrical test equipment) that the CE marking doesn't show independent, third-party testing, that would be a significant difference, but I'd expect ALI to point that out if it were the case.

 

[lakeroadster]

John do you care to explain this shop getting a "red tag" term? I have never heard of it, have you? That was a very nice cut and paste of some sales oriented descriptions. But what I looking for will never be found in sales literature. From an objective point of view is ALI truly superior to CE, and are there any other certification organizations.

This shop? Not sure what you are referring to.

A red tag... well that has pretty much a universal meaning.

Also not sure why you seem to be ragging on ALI? My cut and paste... with the referenced link, was merely to help answer your question.

 

[Ggg]

John the "shop getting a red tag" is in your post. Read the second to last sentence iirc.
What I'm asking you or anybody else for that matter is have you ever seen or heard of a repair shop getting a "red tag" as the ALI post suggests. There is no such thing as a shop getting a "red tag". It's a made up term, to sensationalize their product. Put fear in the minds of an uneducated buyer.

I have no beef with you especially, or ALI. I do take issue when anybody take sales oriented literature and claim it to be gospel, when in reality it's salesmanship. That's why that cut and paste doesn't answer my question. Danb35 saw through the salesmanship.
Like the ALI post says be an educated buyer. Thats why I'm asking the question in my first post. Are there any other certifications than ALI such as CE for an example. What are their pros & cons?

 

[firebirdparts]

He quoted a web site. Let it go. Any person reading that will see where it came from.

If anyone is curious about CE, they should research it.

 

[Ggg]

Let what go? I know he quoted a website.

 

[4 FN 27]

John the "shop getting a red tag" is in your post. Read the second to last sentence iirc.
What I'm asking you or anybody else for that matter is have you ever seen or heard of a repair shop getting a "red tag" as the ALI post suggests. There is no such thing as a shop getting a "red tag". It's a made up term, to sensationalize their product. Put fear in the minds of an uneducated buyer.

I have no beef with you especially, or ALI. I do take issue when anybody take sales oriented literature and claim it to be gospel, when in reality it's salesmanship. That's why that cut and paste doesn't answer my question. Danb35 saw through the salesmanship.
Like the ALI post says be an educated buyer. Thats why I'm asking the question in my first post. Are there any other certifications than ALI such as CE for an example. What are their pros & cons?

Ummmm...well it happened to our shop when we opened. We had 6 machines CE approved and the Electrical Inspector shut us down. We spent an average of $5k per machine to have a PE sign off on them to the UL equivalent. Fortunately for us the Manufacturers of the equipment footed the bills. No joke.

Why...because we used a non-Union Electrician. We went with the best bid...knowing what I know now I would have accepted another bid at the time. Having a well connected friend got us off the hook on future installations. This was a common problem in the Twin Cities Metro back in the late 90's. Things have changed.

It may not have technically been called a "Red Tag" but that is exactly the prhase used by the inspector.

Get the UL listing. It can happen.

 

[Ggg]

4FN thanks for he info. Do you think had you used a union electrician none of that would have happened?

 

[lakeroadster]

... There is no such thing as a shop getting a "red tag". It's a made up term, to sensationalize their product. Put fear in the minds of an uneducated buyer.

I have no beef with you especially, or ALI. I do take issue when anybody take sales oriented literature and claim it to be gospel, when in reality it's salesmanship. That's why that cut and paste doesn't answer my question. Danb35 saw through the salesmanship.

Like the ALI post says be an educated buyer. That's why I'm asking the question in my first post. Are there any other certifications than ALI such as CE for an example. What are their pros & cons?

You spent much time in manufacturing or construction trades Ggg? "Red Tag" is a universal term, happens all the time. It's not made up and it' not sensational. And thanks to 4 FN 27 for his input on that.

I never claimed the ALI report as gospel, I linked to is merely because it addresses your specific questions.

But for some reason you see it as salesmanship?

Did you read the Derek Weaver link. It backs what the ALI article discusses.

 

[matt_i]

Having worked on exactly 1 lift of unknown brand, I'll say it is completely sketchy from an electrical point of view.

- pushbutton contact to start/jog a multi-HP motor
- high voltage (240vac) controls instead of something safer like 24vac
- eventually the motor burned out from people jogging it...and this got used about 6 times per year...of course it has a sticker on it saying "Wait 2 seconds between jog attempts" (or the like)

Putting an IEC contactor in it is probably $25 more. I'll SWAG that upgrading the start capacitor bank and/or motor quality is probably another $75 more. But, in a race to a price point that $100 additional mfg cost is significant. Most people could care less that care went into the electrical design. Only that they got the lowest price...

 

[Ggg]

Lake you are correct on my point of view of any type of testimonials or brand comparison literature. I own that, be it good or bad. It stems largely from my experience in the manufacturig trades. Seeing competitors tell lies about their products or the products of the competitors. I call it an occupational byproduct.

4FN thanks for sharing the first hand experience. I know what the metaphor red flag means, but in my experience it was just that a metaphor. I guess making machinery to American stds we never had a red flag situation happen.

 

[4 FN 27]

4FN thanks for he info. Do you think had you used a union electrician none of that would have happened?

Trying not to go against the rules of this forum: The simple answer is No!

The real issue was my at the time Electricians attitude based on the Inspectors prodding and nit picking from prior run ins. There was a very high level of resentment between the 2 after the first inspection. We re-fed the building to 480 3 Phase so lots of work. All done to spec and to code. Politics entered the picture.

I had a friend on the "Board" and things got resolved but not after spending a ****-load of money. We were a start up at the time. 100% financed, needed to start producing "billables" to pay the bills...was a very scary time...lost a lot of sleep not knowing if I was going to be able to keep my house if we didn't get things rolling.

And thanks to 4 FN 27 for his input on that.

4FN thanks for sharing the first hand experience. I know what the metaphor red flag means, but in my experience it was just that a metaphor. I guess making machinery to American stds we never had a red flag situation happen.

Your welcome...that is what this Forum is for...sharing experiences and insight.

 

[Radix2]

Don't we really have 3 things going on here?

CE marking - this varies greatly due to liberal misuse by many chinese manufacturers - could mean that the part is legitimately built to EU rules by a legit manufactures certification(word), could also just mean the Chinese die man copied the pretty text. - judge by the manufacturers rep?

UL listing - sometimes also missused by Chinese manufacturers, but it being a third party verification, there is a document trail into follow if one was so moved. Used by inspectors to verify qualified US component...on occasion.

ALI listing - third party verification specifically of lifts - lifts may be made with CE or UL listed components but not ALI certified.

Due to the ubiquitous use of CE and UL markings on electrical components, I would think the vast majority of non ALI lifts would have components marked UL/CE.

Are there actually locales that inspect for ALI certification? I assume for commercial garage operations? Insurance for same?

 

[Ironcrow]

Having worked on exactly 1 lift of unknown brand, I'll say it is completely sketchy from an electrical point of view...

Hear hear! I just got done with running some TUV testing on UL and CE stuff. Basically lots of it is oriented to preventing nearby computers from losing their WiFi connection or the radio from changing channels when the machine starts up... Anyway, yup, my ALI lift couldn't pass an NEC audit. Still I like the idea of a ALI lift. At least somebody has reviewed the calculations on the structure to make sure it makes sense. The wiring, buttons, capacitors, I can change if/when it craps out. The structure of lift is harder to change.

 

[walrus]

Hear hear! I just got done with running some TUV testing on UL and CE stuff. Basically lots of it is oriented to preventing nearby computers from losing their WiFi connection or the radio from changing channels when the machine starts up... Anyway, yup, my ALI lift couldn't pass an NEC audit. Still I like the idea of a ALI lift. At least somebody has reviewed the calculations on the structure to make sure it makes sense. The wiring, buttons, capacitors, I can change if/when it craps out. The structure of lift is harder to change.

If the lift is UL listed the NEC is satisfied isn't it ?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Ironcrow]

Yes, if its UL listed then it complies with NEC. But, it can be Article 409 NEC compliant without being tested/listed UL. I think. We mostly concerned ourselves with TUV for an EU customer base.

 

[jeff12340]

I understand that the CE rating is given by the same factory that made the lifts where the ALI is a independent lab that does the test on the entire lift not just the electrical and now a days you can by the same lift ALI or CE and the only difference is $1,000.00 bucks for the ALI rating so for me a home hobby guy the CE is good enough as long as the sell one thats the same with the ALI rating I dont need it