FROG ideas

[redman333]

I have a 20x30ft detached garage right now thats basically bare. I'm basically broke right now since I have two little ones in daycare and only one income. So this is to be done cheaply but still decent. The garage right now is basically a shed. No power, no sewer, no water. The bottom is basically my workshop, and has inside stairs going to the loft upstairs. I want to move the stairs to the exterior and put in a door upstairs to access the second floor. The second floor I'm wanting to convert into a theater room/spare room. We have a 3 bedroom house and with the second child we lost the spare room and since we are at the beach we have a lot of company in the summer. So I wanted to get that room back and also be able to use it for a theater room when no one is with us.

I'll show you what I have designed so far and see what you guys think. The only problem I see with my design is I don't have a bathroom of any sort and its a detached garage so that may be a pain when that time comes. The house is not far from the garage but the entrance would be at the back of the building and the house is on the front of the building about 15ft away. Not sure how to implement the bathroom though.

Anyway on to the pics.

 

[kd3pc]

limited only by your budget..



you don't say where you are located, so I would suggest you run this by the authority in your area. Bathrooms will likely require a system, either to pump stuff to your tank, or if like most jurisdictions to a separate septic system. Especially if you mention the bed. The bed will drive at least two windows, where and how the stairs run and to where and a round of safety items and total air separation from the work area below.

This will not be inexpensive.

 

[larry4406]

FROG ideas? What does this mean?

I agree not inexpensive.

 

[redman333]

limited only by your budget..



you don't say where you are located, so I would suggest you run this by the authority in your area. Bathrooms will likely require a system, either to pump stuff to your tank, or if like most jurisdictions to a separate septic system. Especially if you mention the bed. The bed will drive at least two windows, where and how the stairs run and to where and a round of safety items and total air separation from the work area below.

This will not be inexpensive.

Wilmington NC is the location.

Not sure what that means when you talk about air separation from the space below, as in how would this be done? So are you saying to add the bathroom it would be expensive or the whole thing in general? The upstairs already has 2 windows on each Gable so 4 windows total at the moment. The door thats in the drawing at first will be a single door, will be using the single door in place of one of the windows so 3 windows and 1 door.

 

[kd3pc]

FROG =

finished room over garage
OR
family room over garage

 

[redman333]

FROG ideas? What does this mean?

I agree not inexpensive.

I can picture in my head and do a rendering like I posted of what I'm looking or but this is my first house so I want to do it myself but not really sure of the steps to take to get there. So just trying to see if what I have has some sort of major flaw to it or if it can be done differently whether it be design or function.

Mostly though trying to see if theres a way to add a bathroom and how expensive that would be.

 

[kd3pc]

Wilmington NC is the location.

Not sure what that means when you talk about air separation from the space below, as in how would this be done? So are you saying to add the bathroom it would be expensive or the whole thing in general? The upstairs already has 2 windows on each Gable so 4 windows total at the moment. The door thats in the drawing at first will be a single door, will be using the single door in place of one of the windows so 3 windows and 1 door.

the living space will likely have to be a separate fire/air unit from the downstairs garage. Fire rated drywall/components between them and sealed chases and so on.

Bathroom will add $$$. Septic tie in ...$$$$ even if you do it yourself.
the whole thing is even more. Just don't be surprised by the cost.

Local authority will dictate where and how large the windows will be for emergency escape paths. Usually need two, one primary and one not.

 

[readhead]

The answer is money. The question is how much you want or can spend. First you need to find out if you can get to the sewer or septic and if the building department will allow you to hook up. Since you have not drawn any walls you don't have an egress problem. If you approach the building department I would call this work space. The minute you say bedroom thinks might change. You would be smart to consult with a builder or designer about what you would like to accomplish.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Since it'll be an occasional place to sleep, I'd suggest a Murphy bed or sleeper/sofa. No reason to call it a bedroom, just family room above a garage that you want a half bath or 3/4 bath in.


If its not considered a sleeping space, the rules that apply may be different.

 

[redman333]

Since it'll be an occasional place to sleep, I'd suggest a Murphy bed or sleeper/sofa. No reason to call it a bedroom, just family room above a garage that you want a half bath or 3/4 bath in.


If its not considered a sleeping space, the rules that apply may be different.

So I've done a bit of research and it looks like the "fire separation that was mentioned by someone else only requires some drywall under the second floor. Thats not a big deal since I was planning on finishing the bottom off anyway.

As far as a bedroom or calling it a bedroom its more like a family room or movie room 95% of the time just want to be able to have people sleep up there from time to time. We have been thinking about changing up the design some and get rid of the permenant bed and we found some sectional sofa sleepers that have beds on one side and recliners on the other. This will allow us to let someone sleep on the bed when needed but be out of the way most of the time and be used for a movie room. In the drawing we thought about doing a very small 1/2 bath with a single sink and toilet only where the "concession stand" is. Then the concession stand would be moved to the other side where the bed was. I haven't done a drawing on this yet but I'll try to make the changes tonight to show you what I mean. My uncle is a retired plumber and would be doing the plumbing on this for me so I'd just let him handle that part. He won't let me pay him so I usually just buy some beer and the materials and let him work. He has already looked at it when we first moved in and said he can hook up to the sewer and water barely easy.

Some one else asked what I want to spend. I don't really have a dollar amount, its more what I can afford in chunks. The cheaper I can get it then I can get more done and be able to use the area. It will all be done no matter the cost anyway so the total cost isn't really the issue just would prefer to be able to use it sooner then later so I'd like to keep as cheap as possible.

 

[redman333]

Heres a quick sketch on the bathroom placement and size.

 

[BADSIX]

I don't know you measurements but it would be nice to have a corner shower in that bathroom. when I go anywhere they better have a shower or I get a motel room. gota have a shower in the morning.
Jay D.

 

[firebirdparts]

Tee into the house septic or sewer will cost $ not $$$$. PVC is a cheap material. Shovels are less than $10. But your local permitting office needs to tell you what is allowed.

 

[redman333]

Tee into the house septic or sewer will cost $ not $$$$. PVC is a cheap material. Shovels are less than $10. But your local permitting office needs to tell you what is allowed.

I’m confused so the permits cost a lot of money then?


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[redman333]

I don't know you measurements but it would be nice to have a corner shower in that bathroom. when I go anywhere they better have a shower or I get a motel room. gota have a shower in the morning.
Jay D.

I actually finished a model last night to include the corner stand up shower. The problem I may have is this is basically an attic so there is a knee wall and then a slant wall above that so the far outside wall may be too low for where I have the bathroom right now. I have to go get some measurements and put them in the design so I know the hieght of everything. If I get a little time today I'll post the pic of the design with the shower.

 

[bczygan]

Pulling a permit?

 

[Jeffh40]

I know you said in your OP that you don't have a lot to invest in this project but what you have outlined isn't likely to be done for less than several thousand and could cost quite a bit more.

There were comments above about tying into a septic system with a $10 shovel, but you should remember that the sewer lines in your house are under the basement and certainly below the frost line so that could be anywhere from a few feet deep down to 8-10'. Not an easy task with a shovel.

 

[redman333]

Pulling a permit?

Are you asking if I'm pulling a permit, probably not since none of it will be able to be seen from any of my neighbors or the road. I also plan on pulling equity from the house to do a complete renovation into an apartment in about 5-6years when all the kids are out of daycare. At that point I'll just contract out all the work and let them pull any permits needed. For now though I'm going cheap because I just want to use the space until that point.

 

[spudley]

What's the roof pitch?

 

[redman333]

I know you said in your OP that you don't have a lot to invest in this project but what you have outlined isn't likely to be done for less than several thousand and could cost quite a bit more.

There were comments above about tying into a septic system with a $10 shovel, but you should remember that the sewer lines in your house are under the basement and certainly below the frost line so that could be anywhere from a few feet deep down to 8-10'. Not an easy task with a shovel.

My uncle is a retired plumber and he has already taken a look at what it would take to tie into the water and sewer of the house. He will do that work for me along with the plumbing in the garage. We live in the coast so no basement just a crawl space. Theres sewer access right behind the house. The people that built the garage had already marked the locations and installed underground access into the garage foundation so that was nice.

As far as not having much money, I'm not broke but I don't want to have a $50k garage renovation.

 

[redman333]

What's the roof pitch?

I have no idea. Forgive me this stuff is all new to me. It's about a 45 degree angle from the wall though if that helps any. Once I have the height measurements I can put that into SketchUp and get the exact angle.

 

[jetnow1]

Being a beach area I would suggest you pull permits as there is always someone who will call on you. Most building depts. are reasonable but zoning may be a problem. Remember that non permitted work will show up to bite you
if you ever sell or have an insurance claim. You might be ok re zoning as the building is existing, outside stairs might need a variance depending on setbacks, lot coverage etc. Do not call or show it as sleeping area. Egress windows are not a big deal, you probably have large enough already or would
want them. With new windows that have the tilt in to clean feature both top
and bottom are removable without tools so the opening to meet the egress
opening is much smaller than old windows. Assumes double hung.

 

[redman333]

Being a beach area I would suggest you pull permits as there is always someone who will call on you. Most building depts. are reasonable but zoning may be a problem. Remember that non permitted work will show up to bite you

if you ever sell or have an insurance claim. You might be ok re zoning as the building is existing, outside stairs might need a variance depending on setbacks, lot coverage etc. Do not call or show it as sleeping area. Egress windows are not a big deal, you probably have large enough already or would

want them. With new windows that have the tilt in to clean feature both top

and bottom are removable without tools so the opening to meet the egress

opening is much smaller than old windows. Assumes double hung.

Since you mentioned the insurance claim it's probably a good idea to get the permits. Just a bit intimidating since I have no idea where to start when it comes to permits. However since we are on the coast I'd be worried that they may deny a claim or something if a hurricane did any damage. With these last few hurricanes on the east coast it'd probably be better not to push my luck.


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[redman333]

So I did a quick Google search on how to pull permits and how much it'll cost and one video I watched said it cost $1800 for the permit to do a front porch and siding and then another $800 in permits to do the windows. Is this what I should be expecting for permit costs. If that's the case then hell no I'll take my chances. I called the local city planning office and left a voicemail for them to call me back but those numbers are crazy. Over $2k in permits can go a long ways when I'm trying to do things cheap.


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[Jeffh40]

Maybe they were talking about the costs to have an architect design plans and file for a permit. I put an addition on the back of my house about 10 years ago and pulled a building and electrical permit and the costs were minuscule. I don't remember anymore, how much they were, but if it was expensive, I sure would remember.

 

[redman333]

So I was poking around the city website and found this. Is this about what it'd be then?
I'm thinking the $250 amount since its well under 10,000sqft. Not suire if I'm even in the correct place though.

http://www.wilmingtonnc.gov/home/showdocument?id=218

Not sure if I can link external links here, let me know if I'm not supposed to and I'll delete it.

Section 2. Site Plan Review Fees:
Application fees for site plan review under Chapter 18 of the City Code shall be as follows:
Less than or equal to 10,000 square ft.: $250+$20 per 1,000sq. ft. of gfa
10,001 square ft. to 40,000 square ft.: $500+$20 per 1,000sq. ft of gfa
Greater than 40,000 square ft.: $1,000+$20 per 1,000sq. ft. of gfa
Mixed Use Developments: $1,200+$10 per 1,000sq. ft. of gfa
Re-review fee Plan: ½ of cost above
Landscaping Re-Review Fee: $125.00
Traffic Impact Analysis: $250
Resubmittal Fee: $125
Projects located in the 1945 Corporate Limits: $100.00

 

[Jeffh40]

You never mentioned, and no one asked. Are you even doing any structural work or is this all just a build out of the space and installing a bathroom. The primary reason for a permit is if you are making structural modifications. A lot of places won't require a building permit just to hand insulation and drywall.

 

[redman333]

You never mentioned, and no one asked. Are you even doing any structural work or is this all just a build out of the space and installing a bathroom. The primary reason for a permit is if you are making structural modifications. A lot of places won't require a building permit just to hand insulation and drywall.

I'll be moving stairs from the inside to the outside and then filling in the hole where the stairs were with a floor. Also will have to add electrical to the building since there's no electrical in the building currently. Then the plumbing also.


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[redman333]

Not sure if any or all of that constitutes as structural changes. If you look at the original drawing, basically the area where the bed is sitting is now open to the first floor garage. About a 9ftx10ft opening. There's an L shape stair case there. I plan on re-purposing the stairs for external use and then just close the floor off.


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[spudley]

Before you get too far into this, you should review the Planning and Zoning rules for your area. Where I'm at, a second floor living area is not permitted in an accessory (garage) structure. I've gone through quite a bit of hearings (and permit fees) before many boards just to add a dormer (for increased storage) to my proposed structure.

 

[redman333]

Before you get too far into this, you should review the Planning and Zoning rules for your area. Where I'm at, a second floor living area is not permitted in an accessory (garage) structure. I've gone through quite a bit of hearings (and permit fees) before many boards just to add a dormer (for increased storage) to my proposed structure.

Hey I noticed your from crivitz! I grew up both in oak Creek and South Milwaukee and up north some in Stevens point.

To answer your question we already checked when we bought the house. That was the first thing we did. It is allowed. We are also allowed to have multi family structures here so eventually that's what this will be for us is a dual rental. One in the garage as an efficiency and the house.

 

[01-7700]

Do it as cheap as you can so you can afford the penalties when they find out.

 

[bczygan]

You need to find out all the planning and zoning and building requirements if you do it with or without permits. Otherwise you could actually have to demolish some or all of it. And document with photos, videos and measurements, all that you do. This is for your own use but also to document what you did if you don't pull permits. If everything meets zoning and code requirements, and you can document it, even if you didn't pull permits, some places will then just hit you with double fees when they find out.

Bill

 

[redman333]

I'm getting ready to start this project soon here. I have a question for you guys though.

I need to run power to the garage and my understanding I can get a 100amp CB in my main panel where the service comes in and then run that to the garage. I also need a disconnect and then a CB panel for the garage. Does the CB panel for the garage need to be upstairs or down in the garage? I'm guessing upstairs but not sure.

This is mostly for budgeting purposes. Tell me if I'm missing anything or if my prices are off.

100 Circuit breaker at house ($60)
100 amp main disconnect at garage ($100)
100 amp circuit breaker panel for garage ($150)
4" pvc conduit to run the garage feed line in to garage ($150)
4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum Mobile Home Feeder Service Entrance Cable( about 100ft)($350)
Grounding rod x2 ($25)
Misc($100)

Total - $935